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cbassmnm

Making low bulk main pack a size larger?

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As the title says, I was wondering if anyone is done this? 

For example my rig holds a 150 as the smallest main.    Zero porosity material.

If I wanted say a horizon or other low pack material 150, is there a way it could pack larger?  Say having a large logo on it?

thanks for any input.  

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Exactly which problem are you attempting to solve? Is your main too loose in your container, and not putting enough pressure on the closing loop, keeping the pin unsecure? On some rigs where the closing loop is located at the top (Javelin), you can shorten it to "compress" the main dbag and help keep a smaller than spec main secure. Putting in an oversized main dbag can also help, as it will allow the canopy to keep some air in it and fill more space in the container. Putting a maximum possible size of reserve in the rig can also help with keeping an undersized main in check. Having your rigger pack your reserve with more material at the bottom can help keep the dividing wall rigid, and even push the AAD into the space normally reserved for your main, again helping to keep an undersized main in check (do not do this on Javelin/Wings/any other pop top - on rigs with enclosed reserve pilot cutes this will only make the rig less comfortable, on pop tops it is a safety concern as it creates a gap between the top of the reserve pilot chute and your container). 

As Binary said, logos and Dacron lines help push the pack volume up, but if you are willing to make that level of investment (relines (most canopies don't come with Dacron default), and especially custom canopies with logos are expensive), you are better off finding a used rig in the size that you need for your intended canopy to be a proper fit and selling your current one. If the smallest size your rig can hold is a 150 ZP, it can hold a 170 and probably a 190, which makes it a popular size for first rig, which makes selling it easier. I would advise against adding any sort of padding to your container/dbag to help with the pack volume. Doing the padding properly is not easy, and your rigger will probably charge you a lot for it, doing it the quick and dirty way might interfere with your openings, and both will significantly lower the resale value of your rig. 

I know that your question was largely hypothetical, but my $0.02 is that some additional information can't hurt. 

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If you’re considering putting a Horizon in your primary container for Wingsuit jumps, there is little reason not to go with a larger Horizon than what you are typically jumping. That’s one of the reasons why they are made the way they are - to reduce pack volume to fit larger canopies into smaller containers because it can’t hurt to have a larger canopy over your head when shit goes sideways. This is from the PD Horizon user manual:

6. Sizing

There are many factors to consider when deciding which size Horizon is the best for you. To summarize this process in three words, BIGGER is better.


The fabrics utilized in the Horizon’s construction are part of what makes it unique. We know you will love its light weight and small pack volume in addition to the performance of the wing. However, the very things that make this canopy different also demand more experienced canopy pilots to get consistently comfortable landings (when compared to an all ZP canopy in a similar size and design). For this reason, we recommend that you have at least 50 jumps on a canopy (landing accurately and comfortably on your feet) that is approximately two (2) sizes SMALLER than the Horizon you plan to use for wingsuiting.

https://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Horizon_Flight_Characteristics.pdf

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Thank you all for your insight and advice.

Yes I was wanting to make my 2011 vector with closing loop on bottom into a wingsuiting rig.  Smallest size it holds is a 150.     It has the full fitting optimum 193 reserve.

I was wanting to stay in the 150 size... smaller is cooler right?   Anyway if I need to go Zp like a specter that’s what I’ll end up doing, but I do like the way the f111 material feels!   Plus the bandwagon of the wingsuit specific canopies seems to be super crispy.  

I do jump a 120 regularly in my primary rig.  

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No, there is no real way to make them pack larger. They are intended for people jumping smaller canopies who want to put a larger main in their current container without buying a new container. You could take it out to the desert and then it would pack larger. You could pack it only in rooms with heavy A/C which reduces humidity and that will make it pack larger. Outside of that, nope not much you can do. I am curious how you fit a 120 into a rig with a 193 reserve. I'd imagine that main is swimming in there it's so small comparatively.

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6 hours ago, 20kN said:

I am curious how you fit a 120 into a rig with a 193 reserve. I'd imagine that main is swimming in there it's so small comparatively.

I believe he said that his wannabe wingsuit rig is a Vector with an OP 193, and he is jumping a 120 in his primary rig (which he didn't specify the make, size, or reserve). 

7 hours ago, cbassmnm said:

Yes I was wanting to make my 2011 vector with closing loop on bottom into a wingsuiting rig.  Smallest size it holds is a 150. It has the full fitting optimum 193 reserve.

So with a Vector, you can't really do much with a bottom mounted closing loop in terms of over-shortening it (you will just wind up touching the grommets together), but you can have a go with a larger main Dbag, or having your reserve packed to be bottom stiff and push the AAD out. 

Alternatively, you can get a regular pack volume ZP wingsuit main like the WinX or Pilot7. ZP will give you better flight characteristics, and since you already have a rig that holds a 150 standard, and you want to put a 150 in it, you will really experience no benefits from going for an ultra low pack volume option. 

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28 minutes ago, Kenzdik96 said:

So with a Vector, you can't really do much with a bottom mounted closing loop in terms of over-shortening it

At a certain point in time, Vector switched to a "Jav-like" closing loop location (inside, next to the reserve).

I agree that with most Vectors it will be on the bottom closing flap, but posting these for awareness/completeness.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Binary93 said:

At a certain point in time, Vector switched to a "Jav-like" closing loop location (inside, next to the reserve).

I did say "with a Vector, you can't really do much with a bottom mounted closing loop" :D I've known about that series, they did change it back to bottom flap rather soon though. Good info for the ones who didn't know about that series (without highjacking the topic and going into the pros and cons of both systems). 

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13 hours ago, Kenzdik96 said:

you will really experience no benefits from going for an ultra low pack volume option. 

That is not entirely true. There is more to the fabric than just pack volume. Low porosity material in general offers for better openings than ZP does. Have you ever asked yourself why there are no ZP reserves?

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(edited)
21 hours ago, cbassmnm said:

Thank you all for your insight and advice.

Yes I was wanting to make my 2011 vector with closing loop on bottom into a wingsuiting rig.  Smallest size it holds is a 150.     It has the full fitting optimum 193 reserve.

I was wanting to stay in the 150 size... smaller is cooler right?   Anyway if I need to go Zp like a specter that’s what I’ll end up doing, but I do like the way the f111 material feels!   Plus the bandwagon of the wingsuit specific canopies seems to be super crispy.  

I do jump a 120 regularly in my primary rig.  

I’ve heard good things about the Kracken and it packs a little larger than the Horizon, but, smaller than a Sabre - similar to the Spectre. Smaller suits don’t require a wingsuit specific canopy, but, some people like them regardless of suit size due to their opening characteristics as well as to future-proof themselves when they do get a larger suit. The Spectre is designed to have a long snivel - this gives a lot of time for an asymmetric body position to result in line twists.

I will make one more suggestion as to why a 170 Kracken or 190 Horizon may be a good idea: you will likely find yourself in pretty severe line twists and/or landing off more than once during your wingsuit career - it can’t hurt to have a larger canopy over your head when shit goes sideways.

Edited by BMAC615

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2 hours ago, BMAC615 said:

I’ve heard good things about the Kracken and it packs a little larger than the Horizon, but, smaller than a Sabre - similar to the Spectre. Smaller suits don’t require a wingsuit specific canopy, but, some people like them regardless of suit size due to their opening characteristics as well as to future-proof themselves when they do get a larger suit.

No suit 'requires' them. I have jumped a Katana with a Freak 3 before. However, any wingsuit and even a tracking suit can benefit from a WS canopy, or at least a 7-cell. Most wingsuiters have their first cutaways on small suits. I'd argue a beginner wingsuiter would have more of a benefit from one than an advanced wingsuiter becasue while the advanced flyer will have a larger suit, they will have much better pitching technique which at the end of the day body position is the single most important factor in WS openings, same as non-WS openings.

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10 minutes ago, 20kN said:

No suit 'requires' them. I have jumped a Katana with a Freak 3 before. However, any wingsuit and even a tracking suit can benefit from a WS canopy, or at least a 7-cell. Most wingsuiters have their first cutaways on small suits. I'd argue a beginner wingsuiter would have more of a benefit from one than an advanced wingsuiter becasue while the advanced flyer will have a larger suit, they will have much better pitching technique which at the end of the day body position is the single most important factor in WS openings, same as non-WS openings.

Agree. Thank you for the clarification.

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7 hours ago, 20kN said:

That is not entirely true. There is more to the fabric than just pack volume. Low porosity material in general offers for better openings than ZP does. Have you ever asked yourself why there are no ZP reserves?

Yes, you are right that optimizing a canopy for openings alone will lead to F111 as a choice of material. However, there is more to a main (and even a wingsuit main) than openings alone. For start, an average wingsuit canopy will have more jumps in one month than a reserve will in its lifetime. While your openings need to be without linetwists, they don't have to be as short as those of a reserve, as comfort is one of the considerations as well. And finally, as it is your main, it needs to get you back from that long spot you will inevitably find yourself landing at if you are doing wingsuit. With todays cfd technology, it is possible to design a zp wingsuit main that will have all the performance you need (opening and flight) without having to resort to f111 unless pack volume is the major consideration. 

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12 hours ago, 20kN said:

That is not entirely true. There is more to the fabric than just pack volume. Low porosity material in general offers for better openings than ZP does. Have you ever asked yourself why there are no ZP reserves?

i'm currently using a zp reserve as a main.  raven 181.  of course i am not a rigger, so it didn't occur to me that it may not be the best choice for a reserve, but that one is a raven 2 so i'm good.  just for the info, why is it not more common?  i like to know about things.  since it is off topic, if you could show me to some reading material on it, i would appreciate it.  if the reason is in the 2d edition of the parachute manual, let me know and i will find it in my copy.

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(edited)
8 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

You sure the Raven is a ZP?

Precision made a Raven -MZ for a while. It had a ZP topskin only. It was thought that would be a best of both worlds compromise. Also, as you know Ravens were also sold as mains. I have had the distinct displeasure of struggling to pack a Raven -MZ into a couple of reserve containers. I sold one cheap on the internet far away and made the customer who had one get rid of it.  

Edited by gowlerk

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Just now, gowlerk said:

Precision made a Raven -MZ for a while. It had a ZP topskin only.

Ahhh, yes. I remember that. Thanks for reminding me. I had forgot all about the -MZ  Raven was one of my favorite reserves. Most favorite was the Falcon main/reserve combo. Loved the Falcon.

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1 hour ago, sfzombie13 said:

why is it not more common? 

There is no advantage to ZP in a reserve because it is seldom deployed and therefore does not become porous quickly like a main does. On the other hand ZP is difficult to pack as neatly as we like to pack our reserves and it is bulkier which is undesirable.

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13 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

There is no advantage to ZP in a reserve because it is seldom deployed and therefore does not become porous quickly like a main does. On the other hand ZP is difficult to pack as neatly as we like to pack our reserves and it is bulkier which is undesirable.

it says it's a -m but it's packed right now and i don't want to open it up just to look at the label.  i thought i took a picture of it for record but can't find it.  i was told it was all zp, and it sure feels and looks the same.  has to have been a reserve as i had to send it off to have the bridle attachment put on and they replaced the slider with the hole in it at the same time.   both of the 218's i have had bridle attachments already on them and they were also reserves, or so i was told, only one had the data card with it and that one is the reserve i use now, just in case the other wasn't really a reserve.

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On 2/16/2021 at 8:57 AM, cbassmnm said:

As the title says, I was wondering if anyone is done this? 

For example my rig holds a 150 as the smallest main.    Zero porosity material.

If I wanted say a horizon or other low pack material 150, is there a way it could pack larger?  Say having a large logo on it?

thanks for any input.  

I don't know that it was a good idea, but back in "the day" we tacked a square of inch thick foam padding inside the pack tray to fill some area.

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