Socialist nightmare?

[kallend 1,623]

So here I am in Socialist Norway.

Funny thing is that there aren't half naked kids begging in the streets, no homeless men sleeping in the streets, no crumbling roads and bridges, nor ancient cars and trucks held together by bailing wire, no shanty towns......

In fact it looks far more prosperous than your typical US city or small town.

Is it possible that my conservative friends weren't being 100% honest when describing the inevitable consequences of socialism?

[millertime24 8]

Cool. If it seems a good fit regarding your veiws/values then I suggest you seek Norwegian citizenship. 

[kallend 1,623]

5 hours ago, millertime24 said:

Cool. If it seems a good fit regarding your veiws/values then I suggest you seek Norwegian citizenship. 

So you approve of lying about other countries to make your point. You must be a Trumpist. 

 

[Rick 67]

so you believe since 1 socialist country is doing well then all socialist countries must be doing well also   gotcha

[wmw999 2,123]

29 minutes ago, Rick said:

so you believe since 1 socialist country is doing well then all socialist countries must be doing well also   gotcha

These things aren’t reciprocal. Socialism is neither entirely evil nor entirely good. Just as the fact that I like steak doesn’t mean I like every part of a cow. Tripe is one of the VERY few foods I actively dislike. 

Norway seems to be doing a lot right (including being close to North Sea land with oil). So is Denmark. They are ruled by laws, not by personalities. Venezuela is ruled by personalities, and it’s doing what it calls socialism wrong. 

Wendy P. 

[billvon 2,400]

42 minutes ago, Rick said:

so you believe since 1 socialist country is doing well then all socialist countries must be doing well also   gotcha

We're doing pretty well; we are partly socialist.  Lots of military folks, for example, do pretty well here.

[kallend 1,623]

41 minutes ago, Rick said:

so you believe since 1 socialist country is doing well then all socialist countries must be doing well also   gotcha

There are very very many conservatives that use one country (Venezuela) for the opposite purpose, yet Venezuela isn't even socialist, it's an authoritarian dictatorship. 

OTOH all the Scandinavian countries, in addition to most of the rest of Western Europe are doing well despite having robust social programs that the USA lacks and conservatives condemn. 

[CygnusX-1 42]

Norway isn't doing well because they are a socialist country. Norway is doing well because they have a King. Look at England. They are doing pretty well too and they have a Monarchy. That must be the problem with the US. We need to have a Royal Family!

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, CygnusX-1 said:

Norway isn't doing well because they are a socialist country. Norway is doing well because they have a King. Look at England. They are doing pretty well too and they have a Monarchy. That must be the problem with the US. We need to have a Royal Family!

Can Trump make himself King?

That would fix it - right - 

[SkyDekker 1,123]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

We're doing pretty well; we are partly socialist.  Lots of military folks, for example, do pretty well here.

And most of them get very upset when their socialist benefits are threatened. They are entitled to them after all.

[Rick 67]

For the record I have some conservative views and some more liberal and gasp even socialist. I believe we should take care of our less fortunate. I am pro choice. I also have a CWFL. When someone puts up a post with their views and then the next post will be similar to the "when did you stop beating your wife" or " if you're to stupid to believe the same way I do...." It is not productive.

For example, if I say AOC comes off like a dumb ass because of a statement she made it immediately becomes "conservatives are afraid of her". Maybe I just think she's an idiot. Why can't statements be taken at face value instead of being pushed to ridiculous. I have tried to be more active on here because I value the conversation. Maybe I don't phrase things as well as some people. I'm a contractor not a writer . I learn things all the time on here and my views on some things have changed reading the views of some of you. But when you project beliefs onto others because of one stand they take and assume so much more it just shuts down the conversation.

 

[turtlespeed 212]

41 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

And most of them get very upset when their socialist benefits are threatened. They are entitled to them after all.

You must be one of those that think everything there is, government has a right to - and just lets you have a little when they deem it necessary.

The Military EARNED what they get.  They are entitled to compensation for risk, and work.  It was an agreement entered into called a contract.  So - yeah - That isnt socialist - its capitalist.

[millertime24 8]

4 hours ago, kallend said:

So you approve of lying about other countries to make your point. You must be a Trumpist. 

 

How did you get that out of anything I wrote?

[SkyDekker 1,123]

36 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

The Military EARNED what they get.  They are entitled to compensation for risk, and work.  It was an agreement entered into called a contract.  So - yeah - That isnt socialist - its capitalist.

The people who worked for Enron earned their benefits and pensions too, compensated for risk and work. Part of their contracts. How do you think that is working for them? That is capitalist.

When one entity can't fail and has the ability to just get funded more by taxpayers, it is no longer capitalist.

[Rick 67]

11 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

The people who worked for Enron earned their benefits and pensions too, compensated for risk and work. Part of their contracts. How do you think that is working for them? That is capitalist.

When one entity can't fail and has the ability to just get funded more by taxpayers, it is no longer capitalist.

You mean like the Detroit city workers that got their pensions taken away when the city went bankrupt? 

So I joined the military and they sent me to A school after boot camp. I had to commit to work for them for 4 years in order to get the guaranteed school. Is that a socialist program too? 

[turtlespeed 212]

40 minutes ago, Rick said:

You mean like the Detroit city workers that got their pensions taken away when the city went bankrupt? 

So I joined the military and they sent me to A school after boot camp. I had to commit to work for them for 4 years in order to get the guaranteed school. Is that a socialist program too? 

Both very good arguments - but you could have stopped at Detroit - 

That kinda blows his argument out of the water.

If you can show me an entity that CAN NOT fail - I'll give $100.

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

So I joined the military and they sent me to A school after boot camp. I had to commit to work for them for 4 years in order to get the guaranteed school. Is that a socialist program too? 

Absolutely.  Socialism is government control of the means of production and distribution.  The military is 100% owned and controlled by the government, and they decide what to purchase, what to pay people, what to do with the resources they have.  The educational option is a great perk, one that the government was very wise to include.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

1 hour ago, Rick said:

So I joined the military and they sent me to A school after boot camp. I had to commit to work for them for 4 years in order to get the guaranteed school. Is that a socialist program too? 

Yes.

 

1 hour ago, Rick said:

You mean like the Detroit city workers that got their pensions taken away when the city went bankrupt?

Accept they didn't get their pensions taken away. They got a reduction in their pension, reduction in benefits and the elimination of health care benefits. 

Should also note that of course the police and fire retirees were treated better than civilian staff.

 

[TriGirl 268]

32 minutes ago, billvon said:

The military is 100% owned and controlled by the government, and they decide what to purchase, what to pay people, what to do with the resources they have.

And, everyone gets paid the same regardless of job (for the most part*). An admin clerk with 2 years of experience gets the same pay as an airline mechanic with the same time in service.  The doctor gets the same base paycheck as the supply officer -- although the supply officer probably has more time in service as an O-3, since the doctor likely came in at that grade; therefore the supply officer would make a higher base salary.

*The variances on bonuses are because the only way a totally socialist pay and benefit structure works is if the organization can determine who can be part of the buy-in population.

[turtlespeed 212]

1 hour ago, TriGirl said:

And, everyone gets paid the same regardless of job (for the most part*). An admin clerk with 2 years of experience gets the same pay as an airline mechanic with the same time in service.  The doctor gets the same base paycheck as the supply officer -- although the supply officer probably has more time in service as an O-3, since the doctor likely came in at that grade; therefore the supply officer would make a higher base salary.

*The variances on bonuses are because the only way a totally socialist pay and benefit structure works is if the organization can determine who can be part of the buy-in population.

Yet - you have a choice.  You get to weigh the pros and cons and make a choice to accept the stipulations, or not.

 

[Rick 67]

15 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

16 hours ago, Rick said:

So I joined the military and they sent me to A school after boot camp. I had to commit to work for them for 4 years in order to get the guaranteed school. Is that a socialist program too? 

Yes.

I don't see it that way. I think you pay for your school with labor. Not that I am opposed to social programs just my take on it.

 

[Stumpy 256]

22 minutes ago, Rick said:

I don't see it that way.

Doesn't really matter how you see it. That's the nice thing about facts.

[Rick 67]

9 minutes ago, Stumpy said:

Doesn't really matter how you see it. That's the nice thing about facts.

correct the fact is I committed 4 years of work at a low pay rate to pay them back for my school.

[gowlerk 1,914]

All the conservatives have a new ally. Vladimir Putin:

Putin: The "liberal idea" has "outlived its purpose"

Hear me now and believe me later........

[Coreece 190]

On 6/27/2019 at 4:07 AM, kallend said:

 there aren't half naked kids begging in the streets

Maybe because for a long time begging was banned in Norway, and now they're threatening to ban it again.

 

On 6/27/2019 at 4:07 AM, kallend said:

no homeless men sleeping in the streets

Just because you don't see them doesn't mean that they don't exist.  Not too long ago, Norway's 0.12% homelessness wasn't that far off from the 0.17% in the US.  In recent years, Norway has cut it by 30% by implementing solutions modeled after American programs to fight homelessness.

What's really sad is that they probably could've eliminated the problem entirely with just a fraction of the money they spend on incentives for needy rich white people to buy secondary electric cars.

 

On 6/27/2019 at 4:07 AM, kallend said:

no crumbling roads and bridges

Yes, I'd suspect that the logistics for maintaining 150,000 sq. miles of land for 5+ million people in Norway is more easily managed than the 3,000,000 sq. miles for 300+ million people in the U.S.

 

On 6/27/2019 at 4:07 AM, kallend said:

Is it possible that my conservative friends weren't being 100% honest when describing the inevitable consequences of socialism?

Perhaps you're not being 100% honest either?

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/democratic-socialist-countries/

But whatever, so you have about 4 million rich white Lutherans living in harmony with about 1 million rich white atheists.  Big fucking deal.

 

22 hours ago, kallend said:

OTOH all the Scandinavian countries, in addition to most of the rest of Western Europe are doing well

Well what do you expect when you continually compare the worst parts of the U.S with the best parts of Europe?