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MakeItHappen

USPA Board Meeting

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9 hours ago, Westerly said:

This was covered in the videos posted upstream if you would watch them. Ron Bell talked about why he wanted this change in the video.

I watched it the 1st time it was posted here and went back and watched it again. The only mention of the BSR for the AAD fire was rolled into the conversation about getting the incident reports. He said no disciplinary action if it is reported but didn't mention anything about what happens if you don't and then get reported by someone else. He also said he wanted to get an exemption from being subpoenaed by anyone to get that info. As of rite now, that doesn't exist and if a lawyer wanted it, they CAN subpoena for it. Firing an AAD goes without saying. Show me anyone that WANTS to do that. Everyone of these folks talking about the need FOR knowing this and we still don't have anything resembling a reason for why a BSR is needed TO get it. Or why all of a sudden now. We as members agree to abide the BSR's. As elected members of the board they also have an obligation to the members to justify their actions and why. If they can't/won't or simply refuse to follow their obligations, we not only have the rite but, the obligation to question why and shude hold them accountable. 

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22 hours ago, baronn said:

As elected members of the board they also have an obligation to the members to justify their actions and why. If they can't/won't or simply refuse to follow their obligations, we not only have the rite but, the obligation to question why and shude hold them accountable. 

They have very publicly stated their justification here. At least some of them have. You just refuse to accept and/or believe what they are saying. Accountability? They have that, you have a vote. Use it. BIG Parachute will answer to the "little people".

As far as subpoena goes, you are not paying attention. Incident Reports are stripped of the information they provide, and then destroyed by USPA policy. I posted the rule and the link earlier. This is done specifically so there is nothing for anyone to subpoena. CSPA has a similar system. Again, BIG Parachute is not out to eat it's young, or to feed lawyers.

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The info is stripped AFTER it's published. Please tell me how that is kept "Confidential"? They have avoided answering why a BSR is required for this or why this is all of a sudden such a serious problem at this time. Pay attention.

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2 hours ago, baronn said:

The info is stripped AFTER it's published. Please tell me how that is kept "Confidential"? They have avoided answering why a BSR is required for this or why this is all of a sudden such a serious problem at this time. Pay attention.

Your statement is incorrect. When USPA receives an incident report, the Director of Safety & Training strips the report of any identifying info (name, DZ, locale) and THEN the report is published. The original report is destroyed/shredded. That is how it is kept "Confidential".

The USPA Board and Director of Safety & Training all agreed the BSR is required, incidents are not being reported. By your own previous statements, there are on average 675 AAD cutter heads supplied by CYPRES every year, and that does not count VIGIL or other AADs. Even accounting for military use and repairs (corroded/loose wires/etc), that is a HUGE number of AAD fires per year. We all just want to know the data, it may save lives. That is your answer.

Paul Gholson, USPA Southern Regional Director

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1 hour ago, skypilotA1 said:

Your statement is incorrect. When USPA receives an incident report, the Director of Safety & Training strips the report of any identifying info (name, DZ, locale) and THEN the report is published. The original report is destroyed/shredded. That is how it is kept "Confidential".

The USPA Board and Director of Safety & Training all agreed the BSR is required, incidents are not being reported. By your own previous statements, there are on average 675 AAD cutter heads supplied by CYPRES every year, and that does not count VIGIL or other AADs. Even accounting for military use and repairs (corroded/loose wires/etc), that is a HUGE number of AAD fires per year. We all just want to know the data, it may save lives. That is your answer.

Paul Gholson, USPA Southern Regional Director

That does not, nor will it ever, keep info confidential. They may not put the names/places in the published report of Parachutist but, it certainly doesn't take a genius to put together where it happened. Especially when it is a law firm looking to take action. They already know where that is. 

 As far as attaining this data, I have mentioned too many times that a BSR is NOT required to attain it. If anything, I believe this is going to encourage NOT reporting it. I can think of several different methods that may have been more effective but, since they were never implemented, we will never know. Let's give this a shot and see how their method works. I think this is a non issue and it simply won't effect much. I just think the decisions coming from the board are wrong and continuing to defend bad calls doesn't make it any better. 

 As far as the number of these happening with instructors, It doesn't require a BSR to fix that either That will be handled by the DZ or S&TA. Fire an AAD at my place and I can guarantee that will get handled before any form is ever filled out. I'd be willing most DZO's will do the same. If the USPA feels they need to get involved because these folks are simply going to ignore that, are demonstrating once again how truly out of touch they continue to be.

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2 hours ago, baronn said:

 As far as attaining this data, I have mentioned too many times that a BSR is NOT required to attain it. If anything, I believe this is going to encourage NOT reporting it. I can think of several different methods that may have been more effective but, since they were never implemented, we will never know.

So why didn't you implement any of them?  You seem to think such methods would be simple and easy.  Why not just do it, and remove the need to add a BSR?

Quote

 As far as the number of these happening with instructors, It doesn't require a BSR to fix that either That will be handled by the DZ or S&TA. Fire an AAD at my place and I can guarantee that will get handled before any form is ever filled out. I'd be willing most DZO's will do the same. If the USPA feels they need to get involved because these folks are simply going to ignore that, are demonstrating once again how truly out of touch they continue to be.

You haven't been to many DZ's, then.  Some DZ's/DZO's DO simply ignore anything that doesn't cost them money.

Quote

Thanks. Somebody has to stand up....

But you're not standing up.  You are sitting on your butt and complaining after the fact.  

It's easy to bitch on the Internet.  It's harder to effect real change - but again, easy to bitch about the people doing that.  So if you do feel like getting off your butt and standing up, then I support that 100%.   Call your RD and talk about alternative ways to do collect that information.  Talk to the rest of the BOD and get ideas. Implement them.  At the next BOD meeting, propose rescinding that BSR because you can get the information without it.  Show them the information you gathered with no BSR needed.  I guarantee they will listen to you.

If not, you are just another Internet complainer.

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To both of these replies,

I am NOT on the board. This decision was done with ZERO input from ANY members. I work hard and don't have the time to travel the country chasing meetings to voice it before these decisions are done. Yes, I am complaining about this and Yes I am sitting on my butt when I type this. I have offered options to obtain this and even went as far as contacting the MFG's to get some real numbers from them. Nobody on the board even went that far. I have asked an impromptu poll here about how many have witnessed this. Again, the board never even did that. It's the Boards responsibility to It's members to represent them. Not burden them with un needed rules and regulations. This was a cheap, lazy way to handle this and I am pointing it out. Don't agree? You don't have to. I have gotten quite a few PM's that agree with me. You are welcome to your own opinion, You are not welcome to creating your own facts. May want to realize the difference

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16 minutes ago, baronn said:

To both of these replies,

I am NOT on the board. This decision was done with ZERO input from ANY members.

Have you talked to everyone on the BOD?  Or are you just making shit up?

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I work hard and don't have the time to travel the country chasing meetings to voice it before these decisions are done.

But you have time to post thousands of words of gripes.

I work hard too.  I've had problems with USPA twice.  Both times I made the effort to get the change I wanted.  Once it actually required travel to a BoD meeting (o the horror.)  Both times I got something at least close to what I asked for.  If you had done that and failed I'd have more sympathy for your plight.

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This was a cheap, lazy way to handle this and I am pointing it out.

I think the cheap, lazy way to handle it is to sit on your butt and complain about what other people did - specifically, what you couldn't be bothered to do.

Quote

You are welcome to your own opinion, You are not welcome to creating your own facts.

Why thank you!   The facts here are that other people are doing what you couldn't be bothered to do.

 

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Clearly this has turned into just a bitch fest from a little bitchy person. Anyone that has time to put nearly 77K posts up can't have much time for anything else. Way to go. 

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10 hours ago, baronn said:

Clearly this has turned into just a bitch fest from a little bitchy person. Anyone that has time to put nearly 77K posts up can't have much time for anything else. Way to go. 

YOU are the bitchy little person barronn.  Bill has been on Dropzone.com since the beginning.  He had been a moderator so he might have quite a few posts.   

I have read all your posts regarding this BSR.    WHAT is the big deal?    Did you pitch a fit when seatbelts became mandatory in cars and aircraft?  Why did it take them so long to require it?.  Why didn't they do it in the beginning? Could it because because they didn't know how bad it was in the beginning before they collected data?  Don't try to say you not against it because you obviously are because you won't let it go.  Lobby the board to have it removed if you feel so strongly against it and according to you have you all this "support" backing you up.  Give them a better way.  Don't just respond with "well you should know".  Enlighten us.   Tell us what we should know.

 

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On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 9:13 AM, jlmiracle said:

YOU are the bitchy little person barronn.  Bill has been on Dropzone.com since the beginning.  He had been a moderator so he might have quite a few posts.   

I have read all your posts regarding this BSR.    WHAT is the big deal?    Did you pitch a fit when seatbelts became mandatory in cars and aircraft?  Why did it take them so long to require it?.  Why didn't they do it in the beginning? Could it because because they didn't know how bad it was in the beginning before they collected data?  Don't try to say you not against it because you obviously are because you won't let it go.  Lobby the board to have it removed if you feel so strongly against it and according to you have you all this "support" backing you up.  Give them a better way.  Don't just respond with "well you should know".  Enlighten us.   Tell us what we should know.

 

Yep. It has happened. The Bitch fest continues. I never intended to hijack this thread. I read this and posted an opinion. I started another to see if we cude get some real data on the number of fires. I took the time to contact the MFG's to attain some data from them. Again, real numbers but, inconclusive. I've posted all of this for anyone that cared to read (and comprehend) it. Accusing my falsely and refusing to acknowledge that is really incredible. I had hoped to point out some things the board is doing that I (and yes, a few other's) don't agree with and help to correct them. I did not contact every board member. I hoped they mite read these. Some do and have responded (privately), the other's may have seen this but, have chosen not to respond. I may or may not take the advice to get more data on this and contact the Board and see about getting this reversed. I DO have another idea to obtain that. I'll have to decide if it's worth any more effort. To those that have simply gotten way upset over what I attempted to achieve here, I do apologize. It was never my intent

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18 hours ago, baronn said:

Again, real numbers but, inconclusive.

I think that's the point of the BSR. To make it conclusive they have to make sure that the vast majority of people reports incidents. My understanding is that BSRs are the only tool USPA has to pressure members, ST&As, DZOs, etc to report. Some might choose to don't do it out of hypothetical "what if"s, and operate on the "margins". Most would probably do it because it is in their best interest.

 

You have repeatedly asked why a BSR, since it is too aggressive and unnecessary in your view. What would be the alternative to ensure the highest number of reports possible, without making it a BSR? I don't see it, but I am not based in the US.

 

Besides that, what some people are telling you, is that you are coming across as a whinny person accusing USPA and the board of being evil-doers and self interested. The reason for that is that you complain without offering an alternative, and you are repeating yourself without listening. Focus on proposing alternatives and you'd be seen as someone constructive, and how people perceive you will change. Keep focusing on complaining and no one will listen to you.

 

Just my 2 cents.

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(edited)

Hypothetical situation:

Suzy AFFI and Jimmy AFF student go do a Cat D jump. Freefall portion of jump goes good. Both deploy. Suzy has a violent spinner and chops it low enough that it scares her AAD. She lands safely.

Jimmy's canopy control was less than ideal and he ended up landing in power lines and dying.

It is required that Suzy file a report about her AAD fire on threat of disciplinary action.  It is NOT required that ANYONE file a report on Jimmy's death.

On the same load, a wingsuit jumper has an equipment issue while jumping  a new suit and can't pull main or reserve. AAD saves another life. Knowing what happened could save someone else's life. But since AAD fires on non-student jumps do not need to be reported, other wingsuit jumpers may never hear about it.

Am I incorrect in my interpretation? 

The information that can be obtained from all three incidents on that load is invaluable.  But only one is required to be reported or Suzy could end up... well we don't really know since we don't know what the possible disciplinary actions might be.

It's partly the threat of disciplinary action,  partly the lack of transparency regarding what potential disciplinary actions might be imposed, partly the requirement that names be included and partly the lack of consistancy in required reporting and the information that is required to be reported that strike me as wrong here. 

The data can be obtained by classifying all AAD fires as incidents.  The majority will be reported, just as the majority of fatalities are reported even though there is no requirement for anyone to do so.

If the data is that important,  make reporting required for all incidents - fatalities,  AAD fires, major injury.  As much as I hate the idea of required reporting, at least what is required would be consistent. 

There IS a lack of communication between USPA and it's rated instructors. This affects all instructors,  yet not even I/Es were contacted for input prior to it being enacted.  Could it not at least have been mentioned in the USPA Professional emailed newsletter prior to being voted on?  I'd submit that it is the responsibility of USPA to keep it's instructors up to date on things that will affect them, not the other way around.

Edited by skybytch
wording changes
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2 hours ago, Deimian said:

I think that's the point of the BSR. To make it conclusive they have to make sure that the vast majority of people reports incidents. My understanding is that BSRs are the only tool USPA has to pressure members, ST&As, DZOs, etc to report. Some might choose to don't do it out of hypothetical "what if"s, and operate on the "margins". Most would probably do it because it is in their best interest.

 

You have repeatedly asked why a BSR, since it is too aggressive and unnecessary in your view. What would be the alternative to ensure the highest number of reports possible, without making it a BSR? I don't see it, but I am not based in the US.

 

Besides that, what some people are telling you, is that you are coming across as a whinny person accusing USPA and the board of being evil-doers and self interested. The reason for that is that you complain without offering an alternative, and you are repeating yourself without listening. Focus on proposing alternatives and you'd be seen as someone constructive, and how people perceive you will change. Keep focusing on complaining and no one will listen to you.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Again, you may want to read ALL of my posts before coming to an incorrect conclusion. I have not only mentioned alternative methods to get this info but, I also did my own research to get as much insight into this "Problem" as I cude think of. If All incidents are spose to be reported and currently, are not, then how is creating a BSR gonna suddenly change that? That's the equivalent of passing gun laws and expecting criminals to suddenly start obeying them. Hasn't worked too well so far. 

The idea of firing an AAD is in itself, extremely self regulating. As a DZO, that behavior will get handled with me and a BSR has 0 affect on it. I can almost guarantee, every other DZO will feel the same way. Are there DZ's where this is happening regularly with the same folks? Certainly possible but, I can't understand why. Maybe they are so desperate for help, passive or simply don't care. A BSR won't affect them. They simply won't report. Point is, passing this will have, IMO, 0 effect. Time will tell.

I see a track record of questionable behavior by the board. Apparently they couldn't see any other way to attain this "info" without coming down with a heavy hand. Threat of discipline. Never asked any members for input, never attempted to find this out thru the mfg's, nothing. Their job is to regulate, not dictate. They are elected to represent it's members, not burden the rule following members with unnecessary regulation because of, what may be perceived, as a few bad apples that may or may not even exist. This was over-reaching IMO and yes, based on past behavior of the board, it does make me wonder why. If you want to call that whiny, so be it.

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On 3/6/2019 at 8:10 AM, baronn said:

. I may or may not take the advice to get more data on this and contact the Board and see about getting this reversed. I DO have another idea to obtain that.

Great idea.  If you do those things, you will accomplish far more than you will with your "bitch fest" as you call it.

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(edited)
11 hours ago, baronn said:

Again, you may want to read ALL of my posts before coming to an incorrect conclusion. I have not only mentioned alternative methods to get this info but, I also did my own research to get as much insight into this "Problem" as I cude think of. If All incidents are spose to be reported and currently, are not, then how is creating a BSR gonna suddenly change that? That's the equivalent of passing gun laws and expecting criminals to suddenly start obeying them. Hasn't worked too well so far. 

The idea of firing an AAD is in itself, extremely self regulating. As a DZO, that behavior will get handled with me and a BSR has 0 affect on it. I can almost guarantee, every other DZO will feel the same way. Are there DZ's where this is happening regularly with the same folks? Certainly possible but, I can't understand why. Maybe they are so desperate for help, passive or simply don't care. A BSR won't affect them. They simply won't report. Point is, passing this will have, IMO, 0 effect. Time will tell.

I see a track record of questionable behavior by the board. Apparently they couldn't see any other way to attain this "info" without coming down with a heavy hand. Threat of discipline. Never asked any members for input, never attempted to find this out thru the mfg's, nothing. Their job is to regulate, not dictate. They are elected to represent it's members, not burden the rule following members with unnecessary regulation because of, what may be perceived, as a few bad apples that may or may not even exist. This was over-reaching IMO and yes, based on past behavior of the board, it does make me wonder why. If you want to call that whiny, so be it.

You say "we never asked any members for input".  In fact, we asked 23 USPA members for their opinion and input.  These are the jump numbers, ratings, and qualifications of the members we asked:

Total number of jumps of the 23:  224,790                                                                              Average number of jumps:               9,773                                                                          Low number of jumps:                      1,004                                                                             High number of jumps:                    19,999                     

AFF IE:  6, AFF I: 8, TIE: 3, TI: 7, SLIE: 2, SLI: 5, IADIE: 1, IADI: 1, CE: 9, S&TA: 9, DZO: 3.                                                                                                                             

After much discussion among these 23 USPA members, it was decided to pass the BSR.  These USPA members ranged from fun jumpers with no ratings to highly rated professional skydivers and certainly represent the broad spectrum of USPA members.

Mike Mullins, USPA National Director

Edited by michaelmullins
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7 minutes ago, baronn said:

 23 Huh? I guess that leaves about 34,977 left. Let's see how this plays out. 

 

Well, I have 23 members that are in favor of the decision, how many do you have that do not like it?

USPA is not a democracy, it is a Republic, just like the government of the US.  You elect your representative to make the decisions and they do so using their experience, insight, and judgment.  If you do not like their decisions, then run for the BOD yourself, or elect someone else.

BTW, I have no idea who you are, or if you are even a USPA member.  I have signed by name to every post that I have made on DZ.com.  I will not be replying to any more posts from individuals who do not identify themselves.  If you feel so strongly about your position, you should (or shude I say shude?) identify yourself.

Mike Mullins

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(edited)
43 minutes ago, baronn said:

23 Huh? I guess that leaves about 34,977 left. Let's see how this plays out. 

It's easy to see how it plays out. The BoD passed the item. It is a BSR. You will whine about it because you believe it is part of a plot by Big Parachute. They will carry on, you will carry on, and no one will change their mind. Only a very few of those 34,977 will see this forum and know that it bothers you. And that's because you will never do a damn thing about it other than complain in this forum. And even if you did, few would agree with you.

Edited by gowlerk
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11 hours ago, michaelmullins said:

USPA is not a democracy, it is a Republic, just like the government of the US.  You elect your representative to make the decisions and they do so using their experience, insight, and judgment.  If you do not like their decisions, then run for the BOD yourself, or elect someone else.

I disagree. I expect my representatives to take the opinions of myself and other voters in this district into account when making decisions.  I do not vote for someone because I back their views 100% on everything.  I vote for them because they not only take the time to listen to what their constituents are thinking about various issues before voting on them, they inform us when issues come up and ask us what our views are.   They then use their experience, insight and judgment, together with the input from constituents, to make decisions.
 

 

12 hours ago, michaelmullins said:

After much discussion among these 23 USPA members, it was decided to pass the BSR.  

Those 23 members are the 22 BOD members plus Ron Bell?

If so, this illustrates one of my points - a lack of communication between the board and the membership.  Yes, those 23 members are a good cross section of skydivers, with lots of experience and time in sport and an obvious desire to make skydiving safer; none of them would be there if they didn't give a shit.  But there are other members out there with lots of time and experience and who give a shit but cannot fit being a BOD member into their lives.  Being elected does not make the opinions of 22 of those members more or less important than the opinions of other members. 

If the members are not given the opportunity to express their views on an issue prior to any decisions being made, and if those are not taken into account when making decisions, then it would appear that only the opinions of the BOD members matter.  Which is something many people bitch about in our country's lawmakers.

Communicate with the members so they know what is happening and can contact their RD or other BOD members or make plans to attend a meeting to express their opinion. Ask for their input. If they don't know that something is being considered, how can they let their representatives know what they think about it? Sure, it's on the agenda for the meeting, but how many people know how to find the agendas?  I spent a few minutes on the USPA website and could not find them posted anywhere. There has got to be a way to get this information out there and make it easy for members to find if they are so inclined.

tbh, 34500+ of the other members probably don't care, but they do deserve to be kept informed and at least given the opportunity to express their views on any particular issue if they have any/would like to.  Making it easy for them to find out what is happening would increase the amount of information BOD members have while making decisions.  That can only be a good thing.

 

11 hours ago, michaelmullins said:

I will not be replying to any more posts from individuals who do not identify themselves

My name is Lisa Wyatt.  My membership has been expired for five years as I have not been able to jump, but my husband is a current member and instructor.  I am getting current in the near future so my membership will be renewed soon.  I may or may not re-up my instructor rating. 

I have nothing against anyone on the board.  I appreciate that they volunteer to do it. I know that I have fewer jumps and less experience than nearly all of them.  I appreciate the amount of give a shit it takes to even run.  I appreciate that some of them post here as this is a good way to communicate with at least a small percentage of the membership, a percentage that probably gives a shit.  My posts are only my opinion on ways I think USPA could do things better.  

I hope that's enough to make my posts worth the time to reply to.  If not, I understand, and I'll shut up until after I've paid the money. 

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