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20_kN

Canopy options for wingsuiting?

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9 hours ago, Gideon Yampolsky said:

Seems that I have to change from Storm to something else earlier than I thought.

I see recommendations for several models in this thread, but I’m not sure what should be the right one for me. Reading specs in canopy manufacturers web-sites doesn’t help either – according to them all their canopies are perfect.

Can somebody please recommend specific canopy which will best suit my needs ?  The things which are most important for me are soft, reliable openings (with wingsuit) and safe landings. Maybe also good glide ratio. I don’t care about canopy flight performance, I’m not sporting canopy flight, but rather just want to land safely.

Many fly the Atair Winx as do I. I concur on the Storm, we had loads of cutt's on that. IMO the Atair Winx is No 1. I tried the Pilot 7 also, but the Winx has it. Brilliant canopy

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11 hours ago, Gideon Yampolsky said:

Seems that I have to change from Storm to something else earlier than I thought.

I see recommendations for several models in this thread, but I’m not sure what should be the right one for me. Reading specs in canopy manufacturers web-sites doesn’t help either – according to them all their canopies are perfect.

Can somebody please recommend specific canopy which will best suit my needs ?  The things which are most important for me are soft, reliable openings (with wingsuit) and safe landings. Maybe also good glide ratio. I don’t care about canopy flight performance, I’m not sporting canopy flight, but rather just want to land safely.

Over the winter I was in a similar situation and did as much research as I could. I even made a similar post here, asking people their opinions. Here is what I found out (note, I'll answer your question at the end):

For WS specific canopies, you really have five options. The Epicene Pro, Pilot 7, WinX, PD Horizon, and the new Kraken.

 

Here's a breakdown of each canopy from info from the manufacturer, as well as what I've hear from the community.:

 

Epicene Pro: Low bulk WS canopy, and one of the first (OG Epicene, not Pro version) WS specific skydiving canopies produced. The canopy is as reliable as all these other canopies, if not slightly more. For ranking purposes, I'll give it a 10/10, and I'll rank all other canopies openings on the same scale. The Epicene Pro flies like a reserve, and some may consider it "boring" compared to other WS canopies. But it still it amazing to fly and I would choose it again. Things to note that improved from the OG Epicene is flare power, and glide ration. It packs about 2 sizes smaller, so my Epicene Pro 190 that I have now packs in the same container that held my Sabre 1 150 which almost no difference. Squirrel also claims it can be used as an "once size fits all canopy", and can be jumped terminal without a wingsuit, which I can confirm it can and is comfortable doing so.

 

WinX: WS canopy that can be made from either low bulk material, ZP, or a mix of the two. If you are looking to upsize your canopy, be careful when choosing which option you want. A WinX 170 ZP will pack like a normal 170 canopy in terms of size, but a WinX 170 low bulk will pack like a 190 ZP canopy or even smaller. From what I've heard, everyone who flies this canopy loves it. It gets a 10/10 for "fun to fly", and is reliable (openings rank 9/10). The flare is also really powerful which is something low bulk WS canopies lack. The only issue is that finding one used is almost non-existent, and it's not meant to be jumped terminal, or non-wingsuit.

 

Pilot7: Probably the most sporty option without knowing more about the Kraken. It comes in similar materials to the WinX, so keep that in mind for what you want, and for size/packing. As for openings, it's not quite as reliable as these other canopies from what I've heard, but it still gets a solid 8.5/10. The trade off is it flies like a normal ZP canopy and has arguably more flare power than any of these other canopies (again, not knowing more about the Kraken). Think of this as a real canopy, while all of these other options as flying like a reserve. It also can be jumped terminal, or without wingsuit, but I've been told by many people that it's not the best idea as the opening is fast and sometimes hurts doing so.

 

PD Horizon: Low bulk WS canopy that packs similar to the Epicene Pro as in two sizes smaller. This canopy is just as reliable for openings (10/10), but the list really ends here. The canopy flies like a reserve, and I've had more than a handful of people who've test jumped it refer to it as "boring". Basically you deploy, get a good opening (assuming you have good form, and many other factors), and it gets you to the ground safely. But that's it. The flare isn't the best because it's entirely F11, but still enough to stand up land. It is also not meant to be jumped terminal, or non-wingsuit. I have a friend who has it and loves it, so to each their own.

 

Kraken: The newest canopy of the bunch. Is entirely ZP, and packs 15% smaller than normal ZP canopies. So whatever your current size canopy is, add 15% to that, and that's what will fit in your container for the same size. Again, I know little about this canopy, but assuming its ZP, I imagine it flies "sporty", and has a ton of flare. I can find a handful or articles and pictures of it, but I won't really form an opinion until I can demo it, see videos of people flying and landing (especially on a no-wind straight in approach), or hear what others are saying about it. I also think it can be jumped terminal as well.

 

So really it comes down to what you want. Personally, I wanted a reliable canopy that packed small  to decrease my wingloading (needed a 190sqft to get my WL to 1.3 but my container maxes out at 150sqft ZP), that I could also jump terminal so I don't have to have a second rig, or change out canopies when I don't want to WS. At the time, all those boxes were checked by on the Epicene Pro. Now that the Kraken is out, I think its worth taking a look at. Would I choose the Epicene Pro again? Absolutely. Is someone else going to tell you different? Absolutely.

 

I recommend demoing the canopies if you can. If you can't and can only buy used, then reach out to the manufacturers with questions. They will always respond (still waiting to hear back from Atair about the WinX 8 months later). Figure out what you want, which canopy(ies) check those boxes, and then go from there.

 

Disclaimer: Like other will tell you, simply getting a WS specific canopy will not solve all your problems. They will help, but you still need good form and focus when deploying to get an optimal opening. Get coaching if you need it.

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I jumped a Squirrel Epicene for 300ish jumps, and the last 100 have been on an Atair WinX (both in a 210). I cannot emphasize how much better the WinX is. It has super soft buttery openings like the Epicene, yet the toggle pressure is higher and the bottom end flare is so much stronger. I skidded in half of my landings on the Epicene, and I have yet to slide in a single one on my WinX. I use it for all types of jumps, from wingsuiting to RW, and it always feels right at home. 

WINX all the way!

0-2.jpg

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(edited)
5 hours ago, Johnkelley said:

Over the winter I was in a similar situation and did as much research as I could. I even made a similar post here, asking people their opinions. Here is what I found out (note, I'll answer your question at the end):

For WS specific canopies, you really have five options. The Epicene Pro, Pilot 7, WinX, PD Horizon, and the new Kraken.

 

 

There are definitely more options that that. Add in the Triathlon, which is very good for WS, the Spectre, OM-7, Renegade, and last you can always jump a reserve as a main if you get an attachment point added from the factory (but I'd suggest it for WS use only--no terminal).

I've flown every canopy on your list except the Kraken as well as all the canopies on my list, and I've flown them all with a WS ranging from a tracking suit to a CR+. The truth is any of them are fine if your body position is good. If your body position is bad, they will all give you twists. No canopy can prevent linetwists completely, although some can help to a degree. The best opening canopy I've ever flown with a WS was a Smart reserve. I did about 30 jumps on one and it opened fantastic, but I would not take one terminal. It was sub-terminal only as it opened fast.

The next best would probably be the Epicene Pro and Horizon which are both square canopies. After that, the Pilot 7 and WinX, which are both semi-eleptical. Just know the WinX and Pilot 7 are less forgiving than the Epicene or Horizon if you get uneven risers as they are not a fully square planform. They can and will put you in a spin if the risers are uneven enough. I've seen people have cutaways on both canopies (not that no one has ever cutaway an Epicene or Horizon, but still).

I have a video demonstrating openings on most of the canopies covered in this thread, and I jumped them all with a wide range of wingsuits, if anyone wants to see it. Also if you're serious about WS and want to get serious with larger suits, you'll have better openings on a canopy that opens faster. Most WS specific canopies are intended to open quicker. This is mentioned in the manual of some of them. Slow opening canopies leave lots of time for linetwists to develop or worsen. Fast opening canopies do not.

Edited by 20kN
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(edited)

I'm jumping Volt 150 from Parachute Systems - http://parachutesystems.com/volt. 30+ jumps with my Swift 2 - happy customer so far.

I've purchased it mainly because of the price of the total rig package, and it was not easy desicion to purchase unknown canopy. However, after I saw this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdu9UF8gCwA it was much easier :)

WL - 1.2

 

Edited by pink
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(edited)

Thanks everybody for detailed and informative answers !

I now have much better understanding about relevant options.

What about glide ratio – is there significant difference between mentioned canopies ?

The glide ratio of Storm is truly bad. I recall several events when I followed other guy in formation, and in the middle of flight paid attention that he is not heading in right direction, taking us too far from dropzone.  I then left formation and tried to reach dropzone, which turned out to be impossible. The funny thing is that there was no point to deploy at higher altitude – descend angle of ATC was more or least same as of Storm, so riding back on canopy would take me no closer to dropzone than riding there on wingsuit. Such events ended in long walking. But it is not just a matter of walking, it is a matter of safety. Terrain around certain dropzones (I usually jump in Spain, Russia, Israel) is not friendly for random landings. I would prefer canopy which, if deployed high enough, can take me back from distance.

Is there any comparative information about glide ratio of canopies which are on WS short list ?

Edited by Gideon Yampolsky

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17 hours ago, Gideon Yampolsky said:

Thanks everybody for detailed and informative answers !

I now have much better understanding about relevant options.

What about glide ratio – is there significant difference between mentioned canopies ?

The glide ratio of Storm is truly bad. I recall several events when I followed other guy in formation, and in the middle of flight paid attention that he is not heading in right direction, taking us too far from dropzone.  I then left formation and tried to reach dropzone, which turned out to be impossible. The funny thing is that there was no point to deploy at higher altitude – descend angle of ATC was more or least same as of Storm, so riding back on canopy would take me no closer to dropzone than riding there on wingsuit. Such events ended in long walking. But it is not just a matter of walking, it is a matter of safety. Terrain around certain dropzones (I usually jump in Spain, Russia, Israel) is not friendly for random landings. I would prefer canopy which, if deployed high enough, can take me back from distance.

Is there any comparative information about glide ratio of canopies which are on WS short list ?

The WinX has the best glide ratio of any of the canopies I've tried, but I dident exactly compare glide ratio that carefully. I mostly only consider opening quality and flare power as there are some tricks to get back from a long spot even with a canopy that is not that efficient. 7-cells are less efficient in general and so your average 7-cell is going to have less glide and less flare than your average 9-cell. it's all a trade-off. When one characteristic goes up, others typically go down.

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Allow me to add my .02. A few hundred WS jumps only, BUT certainly have learned a lot along the way!  Firstly, glide ratio is a nice thing, however, if your flying/navigating the flight correctly, this should NOT be an issue! I bought my custom 170 Storm with wingsuiting in mind. Yes, it's ground hungry, BUT I knew this BEFORE I order it. I love it, but there are far better options IMO. Yes, I still get line twists from time to time, but don't blame the canopy! "See body position"/pack job! 

I'm SOOOO stoked to hear the glowing reviews about the Winx, mine just got hooked up and hope to jump her on Friday. 

So, to echo some experienced pilots, canopy selection certainly plays a role in the outcome of the deployment, BUT,  there are other critical areas to consider in the dive. 

   

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39 minutes ago, timski said:

Allow me to add my .02. A few hundred WS jumps only, BUT certainly have learned a lot along the way!  Firstly, glide ratio is a nice thing, however, if your flying/navigating the flight correctly, this should NOT be an issue! I bought my custom 170 Storm with wingsuiting in mind. Yes, it's ground hungry, BUT I knew this BEFORE I order it. I love it, but there are far better options IMO. Yes, I still get line twists from time to time, but don't blame the canopy! "See body position"/pack job! 

I'm SOOOO stoked to hear the glowing reviews about the Winx, mine just got hooked up and hope to jump her on Friday. 

So, to echo some experienced pilots, canopy selection certainly plays a role in the outcome of the deployment, BUT,  there are other critical areas to consider in the dive. 

   

Sure, skills are most important factor. But assuming maximum skill I'm (or somebody) capable to achieve at present stage, the equipment still has its impact.

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3 minutes ago, Gideon Yampolsky said:

Sure, skills are most important factor. But assuming maximum skill I'm (or somebody) capable to achieve at present stage, the equipment still has its impact.

FOR SURE! We all start out from jump #1 and progress. Trust me, as a brand new WS pilot trying to make pull time less stressful, you look for ALL the answers!  

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Also know that while bodyposition is the primary cause of linetwists in all forms of skydiving, in wingsuiting there is a higher chance that the equipment was the cause compared to the chance of the equipment being the cause in other disciplines. For example, I have countless videos of my canopy spun up in linetwists before the canopy even opened. There are several things that can cause this, but some of them are a limitation of the equipment. For example, the d bag can catch a side of the container and spin right off your back. Open corners in the packing tray is intended to prevent this, but the risk is never eliminated entirely. Using gear designed for wingsuiting will reduce the chances that the gear was the cause and increases the chances that you were the cause for linetwists whenever you do get them.

Also know that while equipment plays a larger role in WS than other disciplines, body position has much greater impact in WS than other disciplines. Small imperfections in deployment technique are amplified when opening with a WS, and the larger the WS the larger the amplification. You can get away with a somewhat poor technique once and awhile on belly or FF and maybe only get a few linetwists, but the same level of error when flying a WS, especially a large suit, might get you 20+ linetwists. I think my record is almost 25 linetwists on my worst opening. That was when I upgraded from a Swift to an ATC and my opening technique was not where I needed it to be.

Edited by 20kN
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On 8/27/2019 at 1:55 AM, Johnkelley said:

 

"...A WinX 170 ZP will pack like a normal 170 canopy in terms of size"

 

"...and it's not meant to be jumped terminal, or non-wingsuit."

 

 

Pi

I read this reg the WinX "packing size" from time to time, and it is STIL wrong... 

An example:

A Winx 150 normal ZP packs roughly 5-10% smaller than a PD Spectre 150 or a PD Storm 150. I did this upgrade, and that is why I know this. Pls do not spread false facts that it somehow packs big'ish compared to similar designs.

 

I jump it terminal from time to time. no issues. no hard openings. Openings are swift, but still soft and controlled. It's just that the snivel phase is very short. The next stage is in fact very very soft and totally controlled. Also I and others did not know it was not meant to be used for other jump types.... Many people do. I know a vivid freeflyer that used it for this regularely. 

 

Pls only post facts

 

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Just get a Kraken! NZA came out with an amazing product, took them 2 years to make, but it is totally worth it! I am flying a Kraken 169 at 1.26 with an ATC and have had only butter soft on heading openings! Pilot7 sucks, had 3 chops on it. It was the zp version. Just unleash the Kraken, you will not regret it!

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10 hours ago, Gideon Yampolsky said:

I asked Atair yesterday. They say ZP Winx packs 5% less than Storm of the same size.

Ordered Winx today :-)

yeah I went from a Storm 150 to a Winx 150 ZP, so well all one can say they main container got soft(er) and the closing loop got tigth

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9 hours ago, val4o said:

Just get a Kraken! NZA came out with an amazing product, took them 2 years to make, but it is totally worth it! I am flying a Kraken 169 at 1.26 with an ATC and have had only butter soft on heading openings! Pilot7 sucks, had 3 chops on it. It was the zp version. Just unleash the Kraken, you will not regret it!

You had 3 chops on a 169 Pilot 7 and an ATC? Yeah I’m not so sure I’ll be listening to your canopy advice lmao 

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17 hours ago, val4o said:

Just get a Kraken! NZA came out with an amazing product, took them 2 years to make, but it is totally worth it! I am flying a Kraken 169 at 1.26 with an ATC and have had only butter soft on heading openings! Pilot7 sucks, had 3 chops on it. It was the zp version. Just unleash the Kraken, you will not regret it!

I've have around 500 some WS jumps on my Pilot 7 167 and I've done hundreds of jumps on it with a CR+,  Freak and other large suits. It opens fine. If you had three chops it's probably because you got the risers uneven and it put you on your back. Some canopies are more tolerant to that than others (e.g. a reserve or an Epicene), but ultimately that's pilot error. You need to know what to do when you get linetwists. That's part of being a skilled wingsuit pilot. If you get the risers uneven enough, the Kraken will spiral down on you too. Any canopy of any WL of any size, including a reserve, can and will dive given uneven enough risers. It's just a matter of how much they can be uneven before it starts to become a problem.

Edited by 20kN
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On 8/29/2019 at 2:46 PM, birdynamnam said:

I jump it terminal from time to time. no issues. no hard openings. Openings are swift, but still soft and controlled. It's just that the snivel phase is very short. The next stage is in fact very very soft and totally controlled. Also I and others did not know it was not meant to be used for other jump types.... Many people do. I know a vivid freeflyer that used it for this regularely. 

 

Pls only post facts

 

If you want to jump it terminal and don't have any issues doing you, then you do you man. No, I haven't jumped a WinX, so I wouldn't know how it actually jumps. But I'm just stating facts that Atair told me when I asked them. They specifically said it was "specifically designed for wingsuiting in mind, and should not be used for terminal openings due to faster/harder openings and additional wear on the equipment" in an email I asked them specifically for that question. So like I said, you do you man. But according the the manufacturer, these are facts.

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7 hours ago, Johnkelley said:

If you want to jump it terminal and don't have any issues doing you, then you do you man. No, I haven't jumped a WinX, so I wouldn't know how it actually jumps. But I'm just stating facts that Atair told me when I asked them. They specifically said it was "specifically designed for wingsuiting in mind, and should not be used for terminal openings due to faster/harder openings and additional wear on the equipment" in an email I asked them specifically for that question. So like I said, you do you man. But according the the manufacturer, these are facts.

I think it is also matter of packing, especially how slider was packed. It can significantly change opening speed.

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14 hours ago, Johnkelley said:

If you want to jump it terminal and don't have any issues doing you, then you do you man. No, I haven't jumped a WinX, so I wouldn't know how it actually jumps. But I'm just stating facts that Atair told me when I asked them. They specifically said it was "specifically designed for wingsuiting in mind, and should not be used for terminal openings due to faster/harder openings and additional wear on the equipment" in an email I asked them specifically for that question. So like I said, you do you man. But according the the manufacturer, these are facts.

Atair designed the canopy with wingsuiting in mind yup - but is is a great alround canopy. You should try it. The fact remains: some uses it for general purposes and as I said, It opens as great doing terminals as great as my former PD chutes and there is no issues at all. It does not open as soft as a Icarus Crossfire, for sure, but it is very comparable to other similar designs. I read through the manual, it says nothing of  "Only for wingsuiting".

 

Description from the manual:

"

WinX - 9-cell performance in 7-cell canopy!


WinX - the latest addition to the Atair canopy range is designed for skydivers who need a canopy that has soft, consistent and reliable on-heading openings for wingsuit flying, but also enjoys more aggressive, high performance canopy rides.

 
WinX is a 7–cell zero-P semi-elliptical canopy, built on the quality foundations built by our earlier products: Radical, a 9-cell elliptical, and Dragon, a tapered 7-cell. The result is a 7-cell canopy that flies like a 9-cell elliptical.

 
WinX is extremely fun to fly at high wing loadings, being very responsive to toggle input, but at the same time rock stable in straight flight and turns. At light to moderate wing loadings, it’s a great transitional canopy for novice or medium experience skydivers. The great glide performance will bring you home even if the spot was way off, and plenty of lift during the flare enables great, easy landings from a straight in approach. 

 
If you like to swoop, the WinX will be more than happy to oblige. With a low pull force on the front risers, moderate recovery arc and a long, powerful flare, it’s guaranteed to make you smile.

 
WinX was designed using specialist design software, used to analyse low speed airfoils and wings. With the use of advanced airfoil shaping techniques, it’s possible to transfer a 3D design in to a 2D cut of canopy fabric panels. This results in a parachute that maintains its designed airfoil shape throughout the whole wingspan during flight. These techniques also give a thinner profile, which has resulted in a reduced packing volume. 

 
As with all of our canopies, our class-leading manufacturing standards, and high grade zero porosity fabric guarantee a parachute that will maintain its superb performance for hundreds of jumps.

 
NOTE: WINX IS NOT A BASE CANOPY! IT IS FOR SKYDIVING USE ONLY!

"

 

I have another piece of gear that actually says that it is only for wingsuiting: the Sunpath Aurora rig.

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I have taken the WinX terminal before. It opens fast, although not as fast as a reserve. Atair will send you a larger slider if you want one, which makes it more suitable for terminal use. It's just that the slider that comes with it is optimized for WS flight since it's a WS canopy.

Edited by 20kN
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3 hours ago, 20kN said:

I have taken the WinX terminal before. It opens fast, although not as fast as a reserve. Atair will send you a larger slider if you want one, which makes it more suitable for terminal use. It's just that the slider that comes with it is optimized for WS flight since it's a WS canopy.

true, but the slider is not necessary unless you came over to a WinX from a e.g. Crossfire and want the same'ish. Winx opens very soft and without the final "bang" of a Pilot7. Pilot7 has some snivel ehich can help jumpers that did not have the optimal bodyposition at deployment. Winx has very little snivel, but opens softer. To sum up, some pilots might find the Winx opens hard if they do not feel the difference btw no to short snivel and a generally hard opening canopy. I think Atair did a sublime job on this. That said if I where a freeflyer, I would go Crossfire :) But I am always dressed up in a promdress unless weather dictates terminal jumps 

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22 hours ago, birdynamnam said:

true, but the slider is not necessary unless you came over to a WinX from a e.g. Crossfire and want the same'ish. Winx opens very soft and without the final "bang" of a Pilot7. Pilot7 has some snivel ehich can help jumpers that did not have the optimal bodyposition at deployment. Winx has very little snivel, but opens softer. To sum up, some pilots might find the Winx opens hard if they do not feel the difference btw no to short snivel and a generally hard opening canopy. I think Atair did a sublime job on this. That said if I where a freeflyer, I would go Crossfire :) But I am always dressed up in a promdress unless weather dictates terminal jumps 

Yes, the WinX opens faster than many canopies, but that is a good thing for wingsuiting. You dont want a lot of snivle on a WS canopy. The best WS canopies open fast. PD even talks about this in the manual for the Horizon. The Pilot 7 snivles a lot, which may feel nice as the opening is very soft, but the longer the snivle the more time you have for you to rotate under the canopy producing body twists. By contrast, canopies like the Epicene Pro, Horizon, Triathlon and WinX all open somewhat fast and as a result are less likely to produce linetwists, and when linetwists do occur they tend to be less serious. Also not sure what you're talking about with the P7 opening fast at the end of the snivle. Mine does not do that. It opens quite fast at terminal, but at subterminal the openings are very slow.

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4 hours ago, 20kN said:

Yes, the WinX opens faster than many canopies, but that is a good thing for wingsuiting. You dont want a lot of snivle on a WS canopy. The best WS canopies open fast. PD even talks about this in the manual for the Horizon. The Pilot 7 snivles a lot, which may feel nice as the opening is very soft, but the longer the snivle the more time you have for you to rotate under the canopy producing body twists. By contrast, canopies like the Epicene Pro, Horizon, Triathlon and WinX all open somewhat fast and as a result are less likely to produce linetwists, and when linetwists do occur they tend to be less serious. Also not sure what you're talking about with the P7 opening fast at the end of the snivle. Mine does not do that. It opens quite fast at terminal, but at subterminal the openings are very slow.

exactly. I just have one jump in the P7 and I felt the long snive phase and then also the more abrupt final stage. Thats why I say that Atair really got this perfect, the almost non existing snivel, then a smooth and relatively soft final phase under full control. What I also like about the Winx is that it is trimmed flat so if you get linetwists it tends to just hang there over your head and does not easely get aggressive

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