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20_kN

Canopy options for wingsuiting?

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I recently got into wingsuiting. I went on a trip and knocked out 50 WS jumps (10 on a Hatch, 40 on my Swift 3). Anyway, on my first Swift 3 jump I had a hard opening which lead to massive line twists putting my canopy into a spin with me trying to fix it on my back. I was able to fix it in time (mostly because I pulled at 4500'), but I was getting fairly close to cutting it away. After speaking with my FFC coach and some of the other WS experts on the DZ, they recommended a different canopy if I want to get serious about WS. I did put 50 WS jumps on the canopy and it opened fine without linetwists on 47 out of the 50 jumps, but the heading control sucks. It opens off heading 50%+ of the time on WS jumps and when it does open in serious twists it spins up. I am jumping a Lotus 170 with a WL of slightly under 1.1 to 1.

Anyway, I got a brand new Icon I5 which is intended for a 170 ZP main and 175 LPV reserve, which is exactly what I have. I was looking into a Horizon, but its pack volume is so small that I dont think it would fit in my container without a pad or something installed. I asked about the Pilot 7, but most of the WS experts on my DZ said it's not that much better than what I already have and they all seem pretty adamant about recommending a 7-cell with F111 style fabric like the Horizon or Epicene Pro.

I do not want to upside to a 190 as my WL is already quite low and any larger would be too large. So what is a good option? Install a pad and go with a 170 Horizon or something else?

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20_kN

I recently got into wingsuiting. I went on a trip and knocked out 50 WS jumps (10 on a Hatch, 40 on my Swift 3). Anyway, on my first Swift 3 jump I had a hard opening which lead to massive line twists putting my canopy into a spin with me trying to fix it on my back. I was able to fix it in time (mostly because I pulled at 4500'), but I was getting fairly close to cutting it away. After speaking with my FFC coach and some of the other WS experts on the DZ, they recommended a different canopy if I want to get serious about WS. I did put 50 WS jumps on the canopy and it opened fine without linetwists on 47 out of the 50 jumps, but the heading control sucks. It opens off heading 50%+ of the time on WS jumps and when it does open in serious twists it spins up. I am jumping a Lotus 170 with a WL of slightly under 1.1 to 1.

Anyway, I got a brand new Icon I5 which is intended for a 170 ZP main and 175 LPV reserve, which is exactly what I have. I was looking into a Horizon, but its pack volume is so small that I dont think it would fit in my container without a pad or something installed. I asked about the Pilot 7, but most of the WS experts on my DZ said it's not that much better than what I already have and they all seem pretty adamant about recommending a 7-cell with F111 style fabric like the Horizon or Epicene Pro.

I do not want to upside to a 190 as my WL is already quite low and any larger would be too large. So what is a good option? Install a pad and go with a 170 Horizon or something else?



PD Spector is where its at.

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>>> Anyway, on my first Swift 3 jump I had a hard opening which lead to massive line twists putting my canopy into a spin with me trying to fix it on my back.
It opens off heading 50%+ of the time on WS jumps and when it does open in serious twists it spins up. <<<

I recommend trying the Exposed Slider method that solved similar problems I had with my Spectre, including hard openings. Before buying a new canopy, it may not be needed.
Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
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iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

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The original Pilot is an amazing wingsuit canopy. And if you’re jumping giant canopies like a 170 it basically shouldn’t matter what you’ve got, any canopy should be ok at that size. If you’re having issues it’s definitely just your technique. The wingsuit-specific canopies are nice but you’re most likely going to be buying new and spending lots of money, and quite a few are F111 which I don’t think you should ever have in a skydiving main canopy. Spectres are nice but they snivel too much. Storms have a great short opening but are too prone to turns. Sabre2s and Safires are more fun to fly but also have long snivels and aren’t as stable on opening. Sabre 1s are decent but you have to accept the random slammer even with a modified slider

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true, however if he is really set on Wingsuit'ing now, it is recommendable to opt for a canopy made for Wingsuit'ing; and those are Epicene, Horizon and Winx. I fly the Atair Winx, it comes in ZP but packs smallish still, so it would pack softly in the i5 container. If you would like to swop your canopy for a used better one, them go for the original Pilot. Spectre is doable. I do not recommend the Storm as it has tendencies to spin up if you get linetwists - unless your wl is super small.

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birdynamnam

true, however if he is really set on Wingsuit'ing now, it is recommendable to opt for a canopy made for Wingsuit'ing; and those are Epicene, Horizon and Winx.



It's not in a any way a must or an actual recommendation. Mostly marketing move so people buy new canopies. People have been jumping canopies like pilot and spectre for years and with a bit of focus on opening position they open like a dream.

With bad opening position, so called WS-specific canopies will at some point open equally bad as non-WS-specific ones.

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skow

***true, however if he is really set on Wingsuit'ing now, it is recommendable to opt for a canopy made for Wingsuit'ing; and those are Epicene, Horizon and Winx.



It's not in a any way a must or an actual recommendation. Mostly marketing move so people buy new canopies. People have been jumping canopies like pilot and spectre for years and with a bit of focus on opening position they open like a dream.

With bad opening position, so called WS-specific canopies will at some point open equally bad as non-WS-specific ones.

Quote

so called WS-specific canopies



Great, this language is spreading. It called a wingsuit specific canopy because that is what its design had in mind. It isn't so called, that is what it is actually called.

Anyway, Skow is right most bad openings are do to your body position or poor container set up

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As stated above by many, there are a bunch of ZP WS appropriate options. My personal favorite is the Sabre1 (w/ pocket slider mod).

ZP will last longer and is way easier to resell. It's also (generally) a bit sportier and more fun to fly. F-111 will always have an advantage when it comes to opening performance, but you give up a lot when you make that trade-off.
Apex BASE
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Like the others said already, improve your pulling technique and you most likely don't need the super rad wingsuit specific canopies you hear about in shiny marketing ads.

You can't go wrong with a Sabre1, Pilot, Spectre, Storm, Pulse, and so on. My personal favorite of these is the Storm, it has a little more fun built in.

I demoed the Horizon, found it boring in flight. Demoed the WinX as well, liked it a lot more and would go with that, if I really would need a WS specific canopy. It is full ZP and will last a lot longer than the other low porosity other ones.

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Fall0ut

Like the others said already, improve your pulling technique and you most likely don't need the super rad wingsuit specific canopies you hear about in shiny marketing ads.

You can't go wrong with a Sabre1, Pilot, Spectre, Storm, Pulse, and so on. My personal favorite of these is the Storm, it has a little more fun built in.

I demoed the Horizon, found it boring in flight. Demoed the WinX as well, liked it a lot more and would go with that, if I really would need a WS specific canopy. It is full ZP and will last a lot longer than the other low porosity other ones.



Any opinion of the Pilot 7? I agree that pull technique is more important than canopy selection. I had trouble with the technique at first, but feel confident with it now after working with a coach. I can fly the suit straight and symmetrically through the deployment process. Of course there is some argument as to what the best deployment process is as I've been told many different methods to deploy my parachute, but I found something that seems to work fine for me so far.


I do plan to get into an ATC once I am ready and so I cant imagine the openings getting any better. If switching to something like a Pilot 7 or WinX is legitimately a waste of money and wont do anything for me, then great, I wont buy one. But I think it's an idea at least worth looking into considering just one cutaway could mean having to replace my canopy where I jump, and the coach that Lyosha said I should get is the one who specifically told me he recommended buying something different (as well as 3-4 other WS guys on the DZ who all told me to get an Epicene). :)

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20_kN

I do plan to get into an ATC once I am ready and so I cant imagine the openings getting any better. If switching to something like a Pilot 7 or WinX is legitimately a waste of money and wont do anything for me, then great, I wont buy one



Yes it would be a waste of money. If you have a good body position during opening (not even a perfect one, just relatively good) those canopies will not bring you any benefit.
If you have shitty body position, those may help during some openings, but will not be a magical tool to save you and will still open in twists etc.

I have used Pilot (9-cell) for few hundreds jumps and during this season have switched to Sabre1. I like the sabre 1 more, because it opens faster.
With both canopies I've jumped suits as big as Freak2, Strix and Aura. With all of those the canopies have worked brilliantly.

So you shouldn't worry that when upsizing the opening performance will decrease. Just keep your position good and all will be fine.

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20_kN


I do plan to get into an ATC once I am ready and so I cant imagine the openings getting any better. If switching to something like a Pilot 7 or WinX is legitimately a waste of money and wont do anything for me, then great, I wont buy one. But I think it's an idea at least worth looking into considering just one cutaway could mean having to replace my canopy where I jump, and the coach that Lyosha said I should get is the one who specifically told me he recommended buying something different (as well as 3-4 other WS guys on the DZ who all told me to get an Epicene). :)



I definitely have peace of mind now on my ATC with a winX which is worth the money to me. My previous sapphire 3 ended in a cut away on the first ATC jump. I definitely got better with the sapphire 3 but it seemed like I needed a lot of perfection on the pull. Switching to a lower aspect ratio 7 cell regardless of brand just gives you confidence.

One good thing about the ATC is the bigger wing so if you do get twists you can put out a wing and spin out with some assistance from the wind :)

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Bluhdow

Yeah! Last years model is obviously inadequate. This years model is the best thing ever created! Until it becomes last years model.



Once a new model has been released you must immediately purchase it or you will almost certainly bounce.
Do not let the many prior years of safe and fun wingsuiting around the world with other older canopies fool you, this is serious shit and if you can't fork out for the latest released gear this sport is not for you.

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20_kN

***Like the others said already, improve your pulling technique and you most likely don't need the super rad wingsuit specific canopies you hear about in shiny marketing ads.

You can't go wrong with a Sabre1, Pilot, Spectre, Storm, Pulse, and so on. My personal favorite of these is the Storm, it has a little more fun built in.

I demoed the Horizon, found it boring in flight. Demoed the WinX as well, liked it a lot more and would go with that, if I really would need a WS specific canopy. It is full ZP and will last a lot longer than the other low porosity other ones.



Any opinion of the Pilot 7? I agree that pull technique is more important than canopy selection. I had trouble with the technique at first, but feel confident with it now after working with a coach. I can fly the suit straight and symmetrically through the deployment process. Of course there is some argument as to what the best deployment process is as I've been told many different methods to deploy my parachute, but I found something that seems to work fine for me so far.


I do plan to get into an ATC once I am ready and so I cant imagine the openings getting any better. If switching to something like a Pilot 7 or WinX is legitimately a waste of money and wont do anything for me, then great, I wont buy one. But I think it's an idea at least worth looking into considering just one cutaway could mean having to replace my canopy where I jump, and the coach that Lyosha said I should get is the one who specifically told me he recommended buying something different (as well as 3-4 other WS guys on the DZ who all told me to get an Epicene). :)
My takeaway from this is you shouldn't be flying an ATC and should find a wingsuit coach that gives more rational advice. Few problems (outside of top-of-the-line competition) not related to ego are overcome by buying the latest and greatest.

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This subject has been discussed ad nauseam for well over a decade. Sort your body position out. If your getting twists on tiny suits its usually 95% body position unless your highly loading an elipitical, pack like a drunk monkey or have managed to get your line trim way out. Get a decent coach who teaches you to fly properly not suggest toys to fix. Invest money in jumps not new shiney toys. I use a Spectre 120 at 1.8 on an Alpine 2 its about body position not just canopy. Last serious line twists 2002 hercules boogie on a Silhoutte 150. Nothing since on last 2000 wingsuit jumps. Get your flying sorted. If you change canopy 7 cell multiple options as already discussed.
Dont just talk about it, Do it!

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(edited)

I want to share some experience I had with Storm, which is relevant to this discussion.

I bought Storm canopy 2 years ago, more or least the same time when I upgraded to ATC. I immediately fell in love in it, due to its flying performance and its robust stability during landings. But I also paid attention to two problems. One is its low glide ratio. If you deploy relatively far from landing spot, there is a chance that you would not be able to get there. You must be careful and alert about you opening location. The other problem was its response to line twists. Even with minor line twists it tended to turn aggressively. But usually after half turn it stabilized and I could take care for twists if any, which was not a big deal. I considered it as minor issue.

In general my openings were fine and I did not found a reason to consider other canopies or different deployment procedures.

Well, two weeks ago I got “surprise”. After very usually deployment I found significant (but not too bad) line twists. Canopy made one aggressive turn. I expected that it will stabilize. But it did not. Instead it made another aggressive turn, and then another and so on. Turns had significant vertical component, I found myself almost upside down on every turn. I tried to open line twists, but it did not work. Every time I managed to open one twist, the canopy made another turn and added one twist more. After 15 (!) turns and only 2000 feet to ground I eventually decided to cut. Landed in the middle of village.

Outcome: I completely changed my deployment procedure, with intention to eliminate line twists at all. And most important - I’m no longer trusting Storm. Its tendency for aggressive turns is not a minor problem, it can develop into very serious situation. I will continue to use it for a while, with much more care. But my next canopy would not be Storm.

Edited by Gideon Yampolsky

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(edited)
16 hours ago, Gideon Yampolsky said:

I want to share some experience I had with Storm, which is relevant to this discussion.

I bought Storm canopy 2 years ago, more or least the same time when I upgraded to ATC. I immediately fell in love in it, due to its flying performance and its robust stability during landings. But I also paid attention to two problems. One is its low glide ratio. If you deploy relatively far from landing spot, there is a chance that you would not be able to get there. You must be careful and alert about you opening location. The other problem was its response to line twists. Even with minor line twists it tended to turn aggressively. But usually after half turn it stabilized and I could take care for twists if any, which was not a big deal. I considered it as minor issue.

In general my openings were fine and I did not found a reason to consider other canopies or different deployment procedures.

Well, two weeks ago I got “surprise”. After very usually deployment I found significant (but not too bad) line twists. Canopy made one aggressive turn. I expected that it will stabilize. But it did not. Instead it made another aggressive turn, and then another and so on. Turns had significant vertical component, I found myself almost upside down on every turn. I tried to open line twists, but it did not work. Every time I managed to open one twist, the canopy made another turn and added one twist more. After 15 (!) turns and only 2000 feet to ground I eventually decided to cut. Landed in the middle of village.

Outcome: I completely changed my deployment procedure, with intention to eliminate line twists at all. And most important - I’m no longer trusting Storm. Its tendency for aggressive turns is not a minor problem, it can develop into very serious situation. I will continue to use it for a while, with much more care. But my next canopy would not be Storm.

It's pretty well known the Storm is not that good of a wingsuiting canopy for the exact reason you described. Some people claim it's good, but really it's not. There are a crap load of people have cutaway a Strom on a wingsuit. I can think of about 10 - 15 other canopies that are better suited for WS than a Storm.

Edited by 20kN
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(edited)

Seems that I have to change from Storm to something else earlier than I thought.

I see recommendations for several models in this thread, but I’m not sure what should be the right one for me. Reading specs in canopy manufacturers web-sites doesn’t help either – according to them all their canopies are perfect.

Can somebody please recommend specific canopy which will best suit my needs ?  The things which are most important for me are soft, reliable openings (with wingsuit) and safe landings. Maybe also good glide ratio. I don’t care about canopy flight performance, I’m not sporting canopy flight, but rather just want to land safely.

Edited by Gideon Yampolsky

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