Can normal be deviant?

[kallend 1,623]

A female friend claims that "most men are sexual predators"**.

Assuming that by "most" she means >50%, then that behavior is actually normal.

Which brings up the question, if behavior is normal, can it also be deviant?

** I don't believe her claim to be true, but that's a different matter.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[gowlerk 1,912]

kallend

A female friend claims that "most men are sexual predators"**.

Assuming that by "most" she means >50%, then that behavior is actually normal.

Which brings up the question, if behavior is normal, can it also be deviant?

** I don't believe her claim to be true, but that's a different matter.

Desire can be normal. It is behavior that is deviant. We do not sanction desire, only actions. The answer to the question you pose is self evident. As you know.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RonD1120 58]

Concepts of normal:

1. Statistical: Mean, Mode, Median

2. Moral: Cultural Relativity

3. Concept of Self: Existentialism

The answer to your question is yes.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Bob_Church 7]

I see a big difference between illegal and deviant.

A straight man is in a room with a 24 year old woman who has no desire for him. His having desires for her is normal. Society has made it illegal to act on those desires, for good reason.

The same man is in a room with a 4 year old and has desires.
This is deviant. If he acts on it it's not only illegal but a sign of sickness.

[normiss 622]

An adult male with another adult in a room is normal.
Gender has never mattered. Consenting adults is self explanatory.

Fully agree with your deviant example. That's just a broken human at that point.

[Bob_Church 7]

normiss

An adult male with another adult in a room is normal.
Gender has never mattered. Consenting adults is self explanatory.

Good point.

[yoink 321]

In no way defending or being accepting of deviant behaviour, I do think it's easier for men now to accidentally get into trouble on stuff like this.

When I was at university (early 20s) I'd seen girls at clubs who looked perfectly attractive and adult. The problem is that some illegally young girls (you know what I mean!) can look extremely mature if they dress and act appropriately, and it seems to be quite common for them to do so.

It's exceedingly important for guys to realize this now and not assume that just because a girl is in a bar drinking a cocktail that she's of a legal age to do so, or anything else.

Young guys on the other hand tend (as a generalization) not to act as mature as early.

Let me be clear before I get shouted at:
'I thought she was legal' is NOT an OK defense. I do believe it can be, however, the reality of the situation.
When it comes to stuff like this 'Assume nothing' will be what I'm teaching my son.

[Niki1 1]

kallend

A female friend claims that "most men are sexual predators"**.
Assuming that by "most" she means >50%, then that behavior is actually normal.
Which brings up the question, if behavior is normal, can it also be deviant?

.

The problem is that deviant seems to have become normal for these people. And their enablers. "Oh, that's just him being him. Don't worry about it." If being an asshole is some ones personality, I don't excuse it. I just won't associate with assholes. And if the person is being an asshole to someone else I hope I'll have the strength of character to say something and or stop it.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[Bolas 5]

yoink

Let me be clear before I get shouted at:
'I thought she was legal' is NOT an OK defense. I do believe it can be, however, the reality of the situation.
When it comes to stuff like this 'Assume nothing' will be what I'm teaching my son.

Agreed assume nothing is good to teach all, but at some point some sort of burden of proof has to be established, but something beyond “I thought they were legal.” Being in a club with a drink definitely isn’t it, but asking them their age, and maybe for ID?

Of course the flip side is if a defined standard is established then underage prostitution rings might use it. Complex issue for sure but thankfully one that doesn’t directly impact me.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bob_Church 7]

My response to "Oh, that's just the way he/she is is always "isn't that what I just (insert optional profanity) said?

[normiss 622]

Just so long as you deny it, I mean, I have to tell you, TOTALLY deny it.
Women are special.

[kallend 1,623]

Niki1

***A female friend claims that "most men are sexual predators"**.
Assuming that by "most" she means >50%, then that behavior is actually normal.
Which brings up the question, if behavior is normal, can it also be deviant?

.

The problem is that deviant seems to have become normal for these people. And their enablers. "Oh, that's just him being him. Don't worry about it." If being an asshole is some ones personality, I don't excuse it. I just won't associate with assholes. And if the person is being an asshole to someone else I hope I'll have the strength of character to say something and or stop it.

"Have become..."?

Is this something new, or just newly reported?

If "most men" are sexual predators, doesn't that define normal behavior for human males?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

If "most men" are sexual predators, doesn't that define normal behavior for human males?

Sure, but even then deviant can be decribed in relation to the standards we require for society, not just the things most people do.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[DanG 1]

Have you considered the possibility that your friend was wrong?

- Dan G

[jakee 1,254]

DanG

Have you considered the possibility that your friend was wrong?

Did you not read his first post until the end? I mean c'mon dude, it was only 4 lines long!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 1,623]

DanG

Have you considered the possibility that your friend was wrong?

See the 4th line of my OP.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

jakee

Quote

If "most men" are sexual predators, doesn't that define normal behavior for human males?

Sure, but even then deviant can be decribed in relation to the standards we require for society, not just the things most people do.

So if we require an average score of 150 on current IQ tests using current standards, will it become normal?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SethInMI 145]

Yes, John, you are right.

Deviant behavior means in outside normal actual behavior, not some desired standard. We all agree we should eat better and exercise more, but we don't label people who are a little too sedentary as deviants. Only when their lack of movement or poor eating habits puts them in a small minority category (like if you only wanted to eat at McDs, or refused to walk more than 50 ft a day).

Although she may not admit it, we all know the woman in your post was making an exaggeration. Like saying "Men are pigs". Yes, yes we are pigs. From a sexual behavior POV, almost all men will do occasionally do things they regret. But trying to take some sort of action based on that label is silly.

Calling all men sexual predators is just an unhelpful watering down of the term, unless you long for the conditions of James Tiptree's classic story "Houston, Houston do you Read?"

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[jakee 1,254]

kallend

***

Quote

If "most men" are sexual predators, doesn't that define normal behavior for human males?

Sure, but even then deviant can be decribed in relation to the standards we require for society, not just the things most people do.

So if we require an average score of 150 on current IQ tests using current standards, will it become normal?

Your original question was 'if behavior is normal, can it also be deviant?'

The very question acknowledges that 'deviant' and 'not normal' aren't necessarily the same thing, and clearly my answer is that deviant is not only defined as 'not normal', and by extension 'not deviant' does not necessarily mean 'average'.

Surprised you weren't able to follow that, prof - it's not rocket surgery.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wmw999 2,121]

I think we want to change the norms, so that what used to conform to social norms (normal) no longer does.
Socially normal can be legally deviant (consider speed laws). And since societies can be subsets of the country at large, what's normal in one group is deviant outside.
"Hey Asshole" comes to mind
So yes, behavior can totally be normal and deviant. Just as is the case for nearly any other declaration, one has to be honest about the frame of reference.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Niki1 1]

wmw999

I think we want to change the norms, so that what used to conform to social norms (normal) no longer does.
Socially normal can be legally deviant (consider speed laws). And since societies can be subsets of the country at large, what's normal in one group is deviant outside.
"Hey Asshole" comes to mind
So yes, behavior can totally be normal and deviant. Just as is the case for nearly any other declaration, one has to be honest about the frame of reference.

Wendy P.

Yes, it's the frame of reference that makes all the difference. Some thing that was once acceptable and normal could become, over time, considered unacceptable and even illegal. Cavemen dragging women off to a cave or human sacrifice. Slavery was once considered to be the normal way of things. To judge someone in the past by todays standards has never seemed fair to me. Jesus may be the only person in history who could stand up to that scrutiny.

Also, we're talking about normal vs. deviant. Does right and wrong belong in this conversation?

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[Bob_Church 7]

Niki1

***I think we want to change the norms, so that what used to conform to social norms (normal) no longer does.
Socially normal can be legally deviant (consider speed laws). And since societies can be subsets of the country at large, what's normal in one group is deviant outside.
"Hey Asshole" comes to mind
So yes, behavior can totally be normal and deviant. Just as is the case for nearly any other declaration, one has to be honest about the frame of reference.

Wendy P.

Yes, it's the frame of reference that makes all the difference. Some thing that was once acceptable and normal could become, over time, considered unacceptable and even illegal. Cavemen dragging women off to a cave or human sacrifice. Slavery was once considered to be the normal way of things. To judge someone in the past by todays standards has never seemed fair to me. Jesus may be the only person in history who could stand up to that scrutiny.

Also, we're talking about normal vs. deviant. Does right and wrong belong in this conversation?


I think deviant is being over-used here. There are questions of moral or not, legal or not, that involve things that are normal. If someone has something really nice and you want it it's not deviant to think about taking it and it's not deviant behavior to steal it. It's illegal. It's a way of acting that as a society we've decided we need to avoid.
Wanting to steal someone's car is immoral and it's criminal to do so. Wanting to marry and have sex with a car is deviant.
I guess you could say that deviant is to criminal as tort is to a contract.

[Erroll 49]

Bob_Church

Wanting to steal someone's car is immoral and it's criminal to do so. Wanting to marry and have sex with a car is deviant.

I am reminded of "the feather vs the whole chicken" analogy.....

[Bob_Church 7]

Erroll

***
Wanting to steal someone's car is immoral and it's criminal to do so. Wanting to marry and have sex with a car is deviant.

I am reminded of "the feather vs the whole chicken" analogy.....




It's supposed to be duck, you pervert!

Seriously though, that was one of my second wife's favorite phrases. And she always knew what she was talking about, in that area of conversation.

[TriGirl 268]

yoink

Young guys on the other hand tend (as a generalization) not to act as mature as early.

Partly because of what society has taught boys vs girls about how to act toward and around the opposite gender (sorry for just using the binary. Making a point here). Huge generalization on my part, I know -- but so was yours, so there ya go.

Quote

...what I'm teaching my son.

Exactly. We teach girls not to wear this, or not to do that. We don't teach boys not to do this thing or that. We don't teach boys to learn about the person, not just look at the wrapping. Maybe if we plant the seeds of respect for self and for others in ALL kids' heads, something may grow and bear some fruit in more of those situations.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!