Refunds

[michaelmullins 77]

I would like to know any possible rationale for some dropzones refusing to refund unused jump tickets or money placed on account.

Not talking about tandems, student fees, or discounted jumps. Just talking about experienced jumpers with jump tickets or money on their account.

Example 1: Joe Jumper buys 5 physical jump tickets, can only use 3 before weather comes in, needs to leave, cannot get a refund on his unused tickets.

Example 2: Visiting jumper Jill places $200 on her account for the weekend, does not exhaust the credit before needing to leave, refused a refund.

In both these cases, the jumper could have just bought one ticket at a time, just before the jump, and then would not have this problem.

This seems to be blatantly unfair, possibly illegal, and I am curious why any skydiver would put up with this “policy”. My advice to anyone going to a dz with a “no refund” of unused jump tickets is to simply buy them one at a time.

This policy may also open up a dz to additional liability. For instance, a jumper feels that the wind is a bit high for their comfort level, jumps anyway as they cannot get a refund, and is injured. Then claims in court that they felt pressured to jump by the dz as they could not get their money back.

[kuai43 7]

Agreed.
If you haven't imposed an administrative or staff resource burden upon the DZ, there's no justifiable rationale to withhold a refund.

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[rmarshall234 13]

We used to joke that Buzz would print his jump tickets with disappearing ink at SDSD. He used some kind of cheap paper and printer and somehow, after keeping a jump ticket in your log book for a month or so you would pull it out and it would be either blank or unreadable.

But more to your point...
This business model has always bothered me but I didn't realize it has progressed (devolved?) to the point that the dz is refusing to refund an account. That's crazy.

It always seemed to me like...."ok, give us a bunch of money and we'll let you know when it's all gone and you can give us more".

You're right. It seems blatantly unfair and I don't know why people put up with - and by doing so support - a policy like this.

[obelixtim 100]

Greed.

Just as bad are DZs that sell gift certificates which expire after a certain time period with no refund.

Theft by despicable people, who have no place in a sport that is built on trust.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[gowlerk 1,916]

The rational? Greed and shortsightedness. Nothing more, nothing less.

[gowlerk 1,916]

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Just as bad are DZs that sell gift certificates which expire after a certain time period with no refund.

That would be illegal here.

[obelixtim 100]

gowlerk

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Just as bad are DZs that sell gift certificates which expire after a certain time period with no refund.

That would be illegal here.

Apparently not in the UK.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[mbohu 77]

I'm probably going to get flack for this but:

In regards to pre-bought jump tickets:
1. I completely agree that they should be refunded in full AS LONG AS there was no discount involved in the purchase of the multiple jumps.

2. If there is a discounted package price then it's a different matter. If I purchase the 10-jump package because it gives me a $10/jump price versus the regular $20/jump for single jumps then I trade the risk of not being to be able to use some of my jumps for the discounted price. In that case I can't just use a few jumps and have the rest refunded. Otherwise why would anyone pay full price for single jumps?

3. If I put money on my account and can't use it up, I'd be surprised if it would be legal at all for the DZ not to give me my unused money back. That seems like a horrible--and in all likelihood illegal--practice.


Regarding gift certificates that expire:
I would like to at least make it clear that there is a rationale for having an expiration date on gift certificates, which is not just related to greed:

As a business, if you sell someone a gift certificate, let's say for $200, you cannot claim these $200 as income at the time of the purchase, because you have not provided the services for this money yet.
This means that the $200 go into a LIABILITY account, indicating that you OWE $200 worth of services to a customer. When the customer redeems the certificate (or when it expires) is, when you can claim the income.

So, if your business does a lot of certificates, that means that at any given time you may OWE tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to your customers (in your books). This has advantages, such as: You don't pay taxes on this "income" until it is claimed. It also has disadvantages: If you sell your business, the value of it is reduced by that amount. (same if you try to get a bank loan)
Also: consider that prices might change radically between the time a certificate is purchased and when the service is provided, so if someone redeems a certificate they bought 10 years ago it is very hard to account for that in your bookkeeping, as your service now might cost you much more than at the time of the purchase.

So: It is generally not practical to have gift certificates, which do not expire. (Although: In some countries expiration dates might not be legal and they might take that into account for taxes.)
In the US, I believe, the law is that you need to give 5 years for redemption (not sure if that applies to all types of businesses.)

In any case, as a smart business--in my opinion--you should have an expiration date (as legally allowed) but then, if people STILL want to redeem, let them anyway. It makes for happy and grateful customers and usually there aren't too many who try to redeem expired certificates.

...just sayin'

[gowlerk 1,916]

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As a business, if you sell someone a gift certificate, let's say for $200, you cannot claim these $200 as income at the time of the purchase, because you have not provided the services for this money yet.
This means that the $200 go into a LIABILITY account, indicating that you OWE $200 worth of services to a customer. When the customer redeems the certificate (or when it expires) is, when you can claim the income.

I don't know where you got that idea from. Maybe a local law? Where is this in force? It may be a good accounting practice, but I'm not aware of any such law. Major retailers and restaurants, Apple and nearly everyone sell gift certificates. They do not hold the money in any form of escrow. If the company goes out of business the certificate holder gets in line with all the other unsecured creditors.

[headoverheels 291]

I haven't jumped in the past 4.5 years, because of shoulder problems. I expect that I would get some sort of refund on unused tickets, if I asked for one, but the tickets were purchased as part of a 50-ticket block, so I don't know what would happen. The DZO varies between being usually generous and occasionally tight, so it is hard to tell. I feel that I have gotten such good service and (relatively) cheap jumps at this DZ for the past decades, that I really wouldn't bother to ask for a refund. I probably have 25 or so unused tickets. I did get tickets refunded when Pope Valley closed nearly 40 years ago.

[mbohu 77]

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I don't know where you got that idea from.

Simple. I run a business (retail & services) that also provides gift certificates.

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Major retailers and restaurants, Apple and nearly everyone sell gift certificates. They do not hold the money in any form of escrow.

No. That is not what I said. They do however report it as a liability on their balance sheet and not as an income on their P&L statement (until they are redeemed or expired.) Here is an explanation of the concept: https://www.accountingcoach.com/blog/unearned-deferred-revenue

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Maybe a local law? Where is this in force?

That I am not certain of. I am pretty sure though that it is a required accounting practice for a publicly traded company. It probably doesn't apply as a law to privately held companies.
But that really doesn't matter. If you run your business properly and there are ANY costs associated with providing the services you offer on certificates you need to do it that way, no matter if it is law or not.

Let's say it costs you $10/jumper in fuel and other costs (I don't operate a DZ so this is simply a made up number), your average jump ticket is $20 and you still have $100,000 in unredeemed gift certificates out there: That means you are liable to expenses of $50,000 WITHOUT any more future income (for this portion of your services). This is important for you (and anyone who looks at your business) to know. If you simply booked the $100,000 as income in the beginning, your books would hide this fact.

On the other hand there usually is a percentage of certificates that never get used, so at some point you need to be able to recognize the certificates as income, even if they are unused. You do that when they expire. (And to be sure the IRS (or your country's tax agency) will insist that you do that, since you only pay taxes on this income, once it is recognized.)

Possible, that you don't have to do it by law, but if I was thinking of buying your DZ I would want to see this in your books. If you don't do it this way you are not operating honestly (even though this might be unintentional)

[michaelmullins 77]

Please stick to the topic. This is not about gift certificates or anything else except normal jump tickets either bought as a physical ticket or as money on account.

As in my original post: "Not talking about tandems, student fees, or discounted jumps. Just talking about experienced jumpers with jump tickets or money on their account."

Thanks,
Mike Mullins

[tkhayes 134]

I am pretty sure that it is illegal as well. Congress passed federal laws years ago to protect cash gifts cards and similar instruments - the issue was big box stores expiring cash gift cards, when they were in fact, paid for by real money - in other words, a cash gift card is good forever.

I tell the customers that bring me these stories to simply call the local police dept for a consult. Generally (I think) a call from the LEO asking about the business practices would correct the situation.

When I leave money on my account at your business, whether that is a utility company, a store, or a dropzone, that money is MINE, not the business, unless it is contractually specified otherwise. i.e. a payment for a discounted block of tickets that were meant to be use, but even then, would have some cash refund value, perhaps limited to the discounted value of the package of jumps that were purchased.

I have no idea how any dropzone can make such policies, but I understand that they do. I would take that to its legal conclusion if it ever happened to me.

Not only that, more and more states are enacting 'unclaimed property' laws that allow the states to claim the money that is abandoned on accounts and unused.

[flyhi 24]

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That I am not certain of. I am pretty sure though that it is a required accounting practice for a publicly traded company.

Are there any publicly traded DZs in the US?

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[obelixtim 100]

michaelmullins

Please stick to the topic. This is not about gift certificates or anything else except normal jump tickets either bought as a physical ticket or as money on account.

As in my original post: "Not talking about tandems, student fees, or discounted jumps. Just talking about experienced jumpers with jump tickets or money on their account."

Thanks,
Mike Mullins

I think the principle remains the same.

People pay money for a service, and that implies a contract between the two parties. I could understand a DZ perhaps claiming 10% or so as an administration fee, but that needs to be made clear at the time money is paid.

But what is there to stop jumper A with unused tickets to simply sell them to jumper B, or transferring his credit to another jumpers account and taking the cash from him?

DZOs that indulge in such shonky practices need to be called out, its unethical as well as dishonest. But I guess they pay for it with the damage it causes their reputation.

Why would anyone do that?

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[RMK 3]

Not always possible to sell, buy or even give away a jump to someone else.

At a recent visit to a British-owned dropzone in Europe, I wanted to pay for two other jumpers tickets for one jump. They don't allow this as all jumps must come off the indiviuals own accounts - quite a pain.

Since I started jumping in 2002, I've always had some unused jump tix in my gear bag. I commend those DZs that honour the purchase, but I've lost many hundreds of Pounds/Dollars/Euros to those that don't.

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[obelixtim 100]

RMK

Not always possible to sell, buy or even give away a jump to someone else.

At a recent visit to a British-owned dropzone in Europe, I wanted to pay for two other jumpers tickets for one jump. They don't allow this as all jumps must come off the indiviuals own accounts - quite a pain.

Since I started jumping in 2002, I've always had some unused jump tix in my gear bag. I commend those DZs that honour the purchase, but I've lost many hundreds of Pounds/Dollars/Euros to those that don't.

Why does this not surprise me?

Some DZs obviously have the attitude that they are doing their clients a favour.

However this is the age of social media.

Name and shame I say.....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[stratostar 5]

I have unused reg priced lift tickets from a dz, they moved to a new location and changed the name of the dz. the same guys owns the place and he refused to refund the tickets and also refused to honor the tickets at the new location because he said it’s a different dz now with new name. He didn’t care that I said but you still got/have my money!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[pchapman 262]

Regarding:
"I wanted to pay for two other jumpers tickets for one jump. They don't allow this "

While it is great to have that service, sometimes DZ's don't want to end up running a bank.

It can be awkward in manifest programs to take money from one account and move to another. (I'm talking about 'paying for another jumper's jump' through one's account, rather than just walking up with cash and putting it on that guy's account -- which is simpler usually.)

Manifest starts to feel like a bank teller if more transactions go on, like "I want to put some of my account money on his, because I just bought his used canopy and it is simpler FOR ME to transfer rather than to sign off for my staff earnings to cash out now and pay him directly." or "I owe him for dinner last night, can you transfer money over?"

(I hope Mr. Mullins gets the answers he wants. But none of us is immune to threads spreading and drifting to related topics....)

[michaelmullins 77]

obelixtim

***Please stick to the topic. This is not about gift certificates or anything else except normal jump tickets either bought as a physical ticket or as money on account.

As in my original post: "Not talking about tandems, student fees, or discounted jumps. Just talking about experienced jumpers with jump tickets or money on their account."

Thanks,
Mike Mullins

I think the principle remains the same.

People pay money for a service, and that implies a contract between the two parties. I could understand a DZ perhaps claiming 10% or so as an administration fee, but that needs to be made clear at the time money is paid.

But what is there to stop jumper A with unused tickets to simply sell them to jumper B, or transferring his credit to another jumpers account and taking the cash from him?

DZOs that indulge in such shonky practices need to be called out, its unethical as well as dishonest. But I guess they pay for it with the damage it causes their reputation.

Why would anyone do that?

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The DZs that do this do it because they get away with it. Many jumpers are too timid in dealing with DZs, they should raise hell until they get their money back and make it clear that they will post in every jumper forum the policy of not refunding, report it to the BBB, and make a police report.

• Quote

[obelixtim 100]

pchapman

Regarding:
"I wanted to pay for two other jumpers tickets for one jump. They don't allow this "

While it is great to have that service, sometimes DZ's don't want to end up running a bank.

It can be awkward in manifest programs to take money from one account and move to another. (I'm talking about 'paying for another jumper's jump' through one's account, rather than just walking up with cash and putting it on that guy's account -- which is simpler usually.)

Manifest starts to feel like a bank teller if more transactions go on, like "I want to put some of my account money on his, because I just bought his used canopy and it is simpler FOR ME to transfer rather than to sign off for my staff earnings to cash out now and pay him directly." or "I owe him for dinner last night, can you transfer money over?"

(I hope Mr. Mullins gets the answers he wants. But none of us is immune to threads spreading and drifting to related topics....)

I doubt this situation would arise that often, and why would it be so difficult?

Most of these transactions would just be a couple of clicks of a mouse. Minus an amount from one account and adding it to another. They'd be doing this for normal transactions anyway.

You'd be hard pressed to find a human at some banks these days.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[mbohu 77]

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But I guess they pay for it with the damage it causes their reputation.
Why would anyone do that?

This.

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While it is great to have that service, sometimes DZ's don't want to end up running a bank.

And This.

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I would take that to its legal conclusion

Not so much this.

As a business: Why not have an attitude of wanting to provide good and fair service to your customers and whenever possible try to help them out with what they want? I find there is hardly any situation where trying to hold on to some small amount of money from a single transaction is worth the upset it causes if the customer thinks she deserves to get it refunded.

As a customer: Why not have the attitude that the business is offering me something that I want, that they do so with best intentions and might have procedures that make it easier for them to do so. Rather than: "Greedy capitalist pigs are probably trying to screw me out of my money and I should have my lawyers on speed-dial"

When coming to a new DZ (or any business), find out how it works:
"Hi, I'm new here. How do jump tickets work? Can I prepay?"
"Sure."
"Do I get a discount? Can I get my money back if I don't use them up?"
"No. And No."
"Really? That seems like a really bad policy, you might want to think about changing that. ...Well anyway: I'm just going to pay for individual jumps then. Thanks!"

To the OP's original question: Yes. I sympathize. Bad practices. But what else is there to say? I would exhaust all possible "friendly, cooperative" options (talk to the DZO, rather than the front desk person only, etc.) before starting any threats (bad reviews, legal action, etc.) This is much more likely to get you your money back. But again: Best thing is to find out how they work before you give them your money.

[raff 4]

Two types of DZOs:

1. "Hit 'em as hard as you can once."

2. "Get them to come back as many times as possible."

I've worked for both. I don't have to explain which was the more enjoyable environment.

If you leave the plane without a parachute, you will be fine for the rest of your life.

[rmarshall234 13]

>I would like to know any possible rationale for some dropzones refusing to refund unused jump tickets or >money placed on account.

raff

Two types of DZOs:

1. "Hit 'em as hard as you can once."

2. "Get them to come back as many times as possible."

This seems to be the answer to your question Mr. Mullins.

[DJL 232]

My DZ (VSC/Jim Crouch) takes credit cards and people cash out. It's a pain in the ass at the end of the day when manifest is trying to close and everyone is cracking beers and running around but it resolves the account issue. I'd rather just leave money on the account but I don't care if I'm walking away from $28 until next time.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher