Global Temp Changes

[brenthutch 383]

billvon

>6) The Paris agreement is looking to extract $1 trillion/year from the world's
>productive economy. How much of an impact will that have on the current trends?

Fossil fuel interests are trying to avoid responsibility for climate change in order to put over $12 trillion in their pockets over the next 10 years. How much will that damage the rest of the world?

Will we then balance the statistically non-existent damages vs the very real benefits, (more food, less tornadoes) and then cut a check to "Big Oil" for the difference?

[gowlerk 1,912]

It's all actually happening because of the gunner on the grassy knoll.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

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Now just what do you think Americans can do to stop this?

Not sure why the US would want to stop that? Rush keeps telling us how clean coal is. Are you now trying to imply it isn't clean?

I look forward to you showing me those posts.

I do point out that the alarmism shown by you, billvon and others in not supportable.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,623]

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

kallend

You yet again expose your myopic view of things


You seem to forget I have lived around both.

I would take a coal plant ANY day!!!!

My biggest complaint about a coal plant is the dust. Not the exhaust.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[AlanS 1]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/climate-of-doubt/

FRONTLINE: Climate of Doubt


The science it real. The problem is politics get conflated into the issue by those who fear the expansion of government. Rather than deny the science they should be part of the sincere debate about what to do about it.

[rushmc 18]

AlanS

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/climate-of-doubt/

FRONTLINE: Climate of Doubt


The science it real. The problem is politics get conflated into the issue by those who fear the expansion of government. Rather than deny the science they should be part of the sincere debate about what to do about it.

Sorry
This science is not real.

There was a time when I believed it was but there are too many details that show we need to question.

I remember when science said we were all going to freeze and starve to death in the 70's. That science was supposedly real to. Are you old enough to remember that?

No, todays climate science is based on how others think people should live. And it is a political tool that people are using to make money.

There may be a break through someday that will change my mind but at this point I doubt it.

Too many lies and too much data manipulation to trust anything the alarmist say today.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Stumpy 256]

Good job the people that actually make the decisions at the energy companies understand the science!

http://www.alliantenergy.com/AboutAlliantEnergy/EnvironmentalCommitment/CleanEnergyFuture/208408

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[gowlerk 1,912]

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Sorry
This science is not real.

You don't get to choose reality. You do get to choose your outlook. Something is wrong about your choice, but it's your choice. Fortunately most people choose see more clearly than you do.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[rushmc 18]

Stumpy

Good job the people that actually make the decisions at the energy companies understand the science!

http://www.alliantenergy.com/AboutAlliantEnergy/EnvironmentalCommitment/CleanEnergyFuture/208408

They understand current political reality.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,400]

>This science is not real.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas - fact.
We are increasing CO2 concentrations - fact.
CO2 increases will increase retained heat, and thus lead to increased temperatures - fact.
We are seeing temperature increases that match what we expect from the increase in CO2 - fact.

>There was a time when I believed it was but . . .
. . . then you started reading Breitbart.

>I remember when science said we were all going to freeze and starve to death in the 70's.

No, science didn't say that. You probably read that alarmist article in Newsweek that they later apologized for. Newsweek is not science, any more than Breitbart is.

[StreetScooby 5]

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That is just one possible option. Here's another:

https://www.google.com/...sXcmwUMoehUq7Z4TIDjA

An interesting 2008 Scientific America article, billvon, that is completely wrong in the short summary I was allowed to read (...decided not to buy it at the $8 offering price).

My wife and I looked into getting solar here in New York state. While it's "free", the cash flow really goes to the company leasing it to you. If that company goes out of business, it becomes a cluster fuck as to who and how has the rights to all those solar panels on your roof. In short, the home owner doesn't have any rights. Also, if the grid goes down, your home setup won't work. So, it's not like you'd be living off the grid. We decided, why bother?

I'm not opposed to having home owners set their home up for solar. Makes sense, if the economics work in favor of the home owner, and it still works if the grid goes down.

My experience in researching this just proved yet again the global warming push has become a scam. The government wants you to rely upon them, actually they demand that you rely on them. No thanks. I'll take care of myself, and my family, as it should be.

This brings to mind Amy Schumer's tweet on election night about "Hillary Clinton is trying to take care of all you kicking and screaming babies...". A significant portion of the country doesn't want the government to take care of them. Time for all the needy people to read the Constitution, and get off their ass and get a job.

A final comment here - my sister in Louisiana was hit very hard by the recent floods there. No one in Baton Rouge waited for the government to come in and take care of them. As a matter of fact, the government is actively impeding rebuilding homes by now demanding FEMA permits to rebuild. Unbelievable. The folks in New Jersey that got hit by Tropical Storm Sandy several years ago are still waiting for the government to take care of them. Massive difference in philosophy.

We are all engines of karma

[AlanS 1]

AlanS

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/climate-of-doubt/

FRONTLINE: Climate of Doubt


The science it real. The problem is politics get conflated into the issue by those who fear the expansion of government. Rather than deny the science they should be part of the sincere debate about what to do about it.

This video shows how the North Pole ice cap has been shrinking. The white ice in the video is the older thicker ice. It use to stay in the North Pole region until it was ejected into the North Atlantic Ocean and then melted. Now it is melting in place in the North Pole.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/The-North-Pole-is-an-insane-36-degrees-warmer-10623301.php

[brenthutch 383]

billvon

>This science is not real.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas - fact.
We are increasing CO2 concentrations - fact.
CO2 increases will increase retained heat, and thus lead to increased temperatures - fact.
We are seeing temperature increases that match what we expect from the increase in CO2 - fact.
.

Which resulted in more food - fact.
Less tornadoes - fact.
More polar bears - fact.
An actually greener earth - fact.
No statistically significant change in: droughts, floods, wildfires, disease, sea levels, and zombies - fact.

Oh BTW driving an electric car changes nothing - fact.#
Solar panels on your roof changes nothing - fact.#
Carbon tax changes nothing - fact.*
Wind mill generated electricity changes nothing - fact.*

# other than wasting taxpayer money
* other than increasing ones power bill

[gowlerk 1,912]

brenthutch

***>This science is not real.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas - fact.
We are increasing CO2 concentrations - fact.
CO2 increases will increase retained heat, and thus lead to increased temperatures - fact.
We are seeing temperature increases that match what we expect from the increase in CO2 - fact.
.

Which resulted in more food - fact.
Less tornadoes - fact.
More polar bears - fact.
An actually greener earth - fact.
No statistically significant change in: droughts, floods, wildfires, disease, sea levels, and zombies - fact.

Oh BTW driving an electric car changes nothing - fact.#
Solar panels on your roof changes nothing - fact.#
Carbon tax changes nothing - fact.*
Wind mill generated electricity changes nothing - fact.*

# other than wasting taxpayer money
* other than increasing ones power bill


Interesting. You would accuse the scientific community of spreading misinformation with unproven "facts". Yet the you would create a list of things you want to believe and label them facts.

Clearly you don't understand the relationship between CO2 and Zombies.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[AlanS 1]

Some interesting points.

StreetScooby

The points of discussion for this topic should have long ago been well established. Let me summarize my understanding of this topic:

1) What is the dominant green house gas in the atmosphere?
Water Vapor

There are three green house gases, and water vapor is one. What makes CO2 special is how long it stays in the atmosphere.

Water - stays in atmosphere 9 days.
Methane - stays in atmosphere 200 years.
CO2 - stays in atmosphere 20,000 years.

So once we put CO2 in the air it will effect the future climate for 10s of thousands of years. That is what makes it special. Also if you want to see what CO2 unleashed can really do to a planet. Look at Venus. (I'm not being a alarmist that won't happen to Earth, but pointing out it's effects)

Methane is a concern because there is lots of it locked up in the frozen tundra of Siberia and Alaska. As that region warms enough to melt the ice it will release all that methane, and cause a "methane spike" that will increase the global temperatures very rapidly. The unlocking of that methane could start in about 50 years and continue for then next 200 years. (According to a Scientific American article I read a few years ago.)

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2) How much warming is due to water vapor green house warming?
About 60 degF. Our species would not be on this planet if it were not for green house warming.

True, but what we are doing with CO2 is knocking that system out of balance. The the past million years CO2 was between 150 and 275 ppm.

150ppm == ice age.
275 ppm == our current climate.
In the last 50 years we pushed CO2 from 275 ppm to 400 ppm.

It will take 1,000 years (min) before the climate reaches an equilibrium state, but once we get that ball rolling we cannot stop it.

I'll repost the CO2 chart, that is the most important thing in this debate.

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3) What is the current weight fraction of CO2 in the atmosphere?
0.0004

This is irrelevant. CO2 is a potent greenhouse gas and we pushed the concentrations to levels not seen in millions of year, and over the next 200 years could push it to a level never seen by this planet in it's entire life time.

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4) At the present emission rate of 40GT/year of CO2 and equivalents into the atmosphere, how long will that take to double to 0.0008?
About 100 years.

And how long will it take to get back to the levels that reflect the climate we have now? 10,000 to 50,000 years.

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5) The science on CO2 warming is pretty well established. After the doubling from 0.0004 to 0.0008, how much of a temperature increase will be due to CO2?
About 1 degF.

This is wrong. Please site a source.

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6) "Alarmists" are claiming that positive feedbacks from this increase in CO2 will drive us to an additional 3 degC. Is this true?
Lots of very good scientists are looking into this, such as Judith Curry https://judithcurry.com/, who has proven herself to be a rational voice in this discussion. There are many different forces driving Earth's climate, most of which are not well understood at this point in time. Focused research continues around this topic. The Earth has proven itself to be a very stable system. It is most certainly not fragile.

Really? The rate of increase seems to be matching current scientific models.

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6) The Paris agreement is looking to extract $1 trillion/year from the world's productive economy. How much of an impact will that have on the current trends?
Zero. All this will do is take more money out of our pockets, and give government more control over our lives. For no net gain.

I'm not a big fan of the Paris agreement myself, some if it is a power grab by government bureaucrats.

But, the climate change deniers - some of whom should and I believe do know better - because they deny basic facts, don't get a seat at the table when talking about solutions.

Pure political ideology should never go before facts established by science.

[billvon 2,400]

>My wife and I looked into getting solar here in New York state. While it's "free",
>the cash flow really goes to the company leasing it to you.

Leasing is a terrible option for solar. It's mostly a way for leasing companies to make money.

>My experience in researching this just proved yet again the global warming
>push has become a scam.

Since leasing companies have scams, global warming is a scam?

Did you discover that reverse mortgages are a scam, too, and therefore evolution is a scam?

> A significant portion of the country doesn't want the government to take care of them.

So get solar and declare your independence from government-run monopolies.

[billvon 2,400]

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Which resulted in more food - fact.
Less tornadoes - fact.
More polar bears - fact.
An actually greener earth - fact.
No statistically significant change in: droughts, floods, wildfires, disease, sea levels, and zombies - fact.

Oh BTW driving an electric car changes nothing - fact.#
Solar panels on your roof changes nothing - fact.#
Carbon tax changes nothing - fact.*
Wind mill generated electricity changes nothing - fact.*

The climate is warming - fact.
CO2 is a greenhouse gas and warms the planet - fact.
IPCC predictions of the warming caused by CO2 are being seen now - fact.

Your posts here change none of the above - fact.

[mirage62 0]

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The climate is warming - fact.
CO2 is a greenhouse gas and warms the planet - fact.
IPCC predictions of the warming caused by CO2 are being seen now - fact.

Fact - in the year 2000 (I believe) it was firmly believed that we would be out of oil. Turned out not to be very true.

I'm NOT saying what you posted above isn't true - I'm not sure of the history and effects of the above information is.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[billvon 2,400]

>Fact - in the year 2000 (I believe) it was firmly believed that we would be out
>of oil. Turned out not to be very true.

No one thought that. A lot of people thought we would be out of CHEAP oil (i.e. oil cheap enough to run an economy that relied on burning it.) They did not count on:

1) Improvements in technology that allowed recovery and processing of tight oil
2) Improvements in efficiency that allowed the (far more expensive) tight oil to continue to power cars, trains etc.

Likewise, cheap fusion may come along in ten years and eliminate the need to burn gigatons of carbon - or solar may prove to be so cheap that it doesn't make sense to burn coal any more. That would be great. None of that, though, changes the foundations of climate change.

[StreetScooby 5]

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So get solar and declare your independence from government-run monopolies.

I know you have the skill to have done your own. You can't do that in New York state. You can't connect to the service unless it's a lease arrangement.

We are all engines of karma

[normiss 622]

I'm glad we just voted against that in FL.

[billvon 2,400]

> You can't do that in New York state. You can't connect to the service unless it's
>a lease arrangement.

I don't know where you live, but on Long Island, you can purchase or lease a system. Most people purchase. New York has a net metering law, which means they are required to allow solar connections and to do things like average your bill over the course of a year. Overall there are over 100,000 solar homes in NY, and NY is rated 7th best state to install solar in the US (based on power costs, net metering laws, incentives, generating potential and availability.)

[normiss 622]

Can you point me to a site with that type of info?
Given the recent attention solar is getting here, I'm starting to want to know more than the few panels I can install on the camper.

[StreetScooby 5]

I'm reluctant to even take this post seriously, but in the interest of educating you, I will.

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Water - stays in atmosphere 9 days.

And then what? We have no water vapor in the atmosphere? Is that what you meant to communicate?

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Methane - stays in atmosphere 200 years.

You need to improve your research skills. Methane stays in the atmosphere for about a decade.

Now, on to CO2...

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CO2 - stays in atmosphere 20,000 years.

Over 50% of the CO2 in the atmosphere is taken up by sinks every year, a significant fraction of which is trees and plants.

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150ppm == ice age.
275 ppm == our current climate.
In the last 50 years we pushed CO2 from 275 ppm to 400 ppm.

You should look at these numbers in terms of mass fraction. Your talking about 0.0004 (which equals 400ppm). In historical terms, we've only just been able to measure something that small.

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This is irrelevant. CO2 is a potent greenhouse gas and we pushed the concentrations to levels not seen in millions of year, and over the next 200 years could push it to a level never seen by this planet in it's entire life time.

No, it's not irrelevant. CO2 concentrations have been much higher over the Earth's history, and the Earth hasn't melted yet.

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And how long will it take to get back to the levels that reflect the climate we have now? 10,000 to 50,000 years.

Another truly ridiculous statement. Are you making these up?

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This is wrong. Please site a source.

No, it's not wrong. You should cite a source. Your research skills are lacking here, IMO. You can do better, and I encourage you to do so if nothing else for your own enlightenment.

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But, the climate change deniers...

Anyone who has spent time with this topic will tell you that government actions being advocated now will have zero impact on the trends in place.

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Pure political ideology should never go before facts established by science.

Exactly.

We are all engines of karma