where is the "rape culture" in the Stanford rape case

[mistercwood 287]

This thread is an example of rape culture.

Rape culture isn't a little club of people who get together and chant about how great rape is. It's the little insidious things.

It's the rapists' focus on blaming the alcohol and party culture on the events of that night, and not the fact that he committed rape. He hasn't once admitted to that fact, which shows zero remorse and no understanding of how wrong what he *chose* to do was.

It's the rapists' father, stating that this was all a big fuss over "20 minutes of action". She was unconscious. Out cold. You can't get "action" from someone in that state, you can only rape them. But he won't call it that.

It's the rapists' friend writing a reference to the sentencing judge, asking "where do we draw the line and stop worrying about being politically correct every second of the day and see that rape on campuses isn’t always because people are rapists".

It's that dismissive attitude, the "forcible rape" metric, that avoids admitting that rape is happening every day. It happens because there are fuck all consequences when weighted against the severity of the crime.

You yourself have focused on the rapist in this thread, and how his lifetime registration is a major punishment. It is. And it's supposed to be, because he chose to do a horrible thing. If he hadn't been caught in the act, he probably would've gotten away with it. And then done it again, because he thought this girl "wanted it", so why wouldn't the next one?

You haven't focussed at all on the victim and the justice she deserves, or what she has lost in all this. While you rightly agree the rapist deserves punishment, you've focussed on what he lost and stands to lose.

That's what's been wrong with this case, and the sentencing.

That's rape culture.

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[SivaGanesha 2]

Regarding the victim, I'll admit that I hadn't read her full impact statement until now, though I'd read excerpts. I have now read it in full. In it she notes that this case should have been an opportunity to:

"send a strong cultural message that sexual assault is against the law regardless of social class."

I feel that such a cultural signal has indeed been sent here. That's why I'm a bit outraged myself. I feel that the cultural signal being requested has indeed been sent and yet there are still calls to lynch the judge and everyone Turner ever knew. (I guess they can't lynch Turner himself because he is currently incarcerated however briefly.) Something about that doesn't sit right with me.

Turner has been punished in multiple ways for life. Some are specific to his social status: a lifetime ban from Stanford and swimming. The lifetime sex offender registry is a more general penalty that applies to sex offenders of all social groups.

Yes the jail part of the sentence turned out to be less than she hoped for. But the overall message being sent here is clearly that what he did is against the law. It is hard for me to see how it could be interpreted any other way.

I was disturbed to read though that even after she regained consciousness the victim was forced to submit to medical treatment it is not clear she consented to.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[mistercwood 287]

SivaGanesha

Yes the jail part of the sentence turned out to be less than she hoped for. But the overall message being sent here is clearly that what he did is against the law. It is hard for me to see how it could be interpreted any other way.

Um, not "less than she hoped for". Less than the minimum sentence for the crime he was convicted of. Because the judge focused on what the rapist had going for him in the future, not what the victim had lost in the present and has also lost for the future.

The message that sends is "eh, rape's not such a big deal if the rapist has a bright future".

SivaGanesha

I was disturbed to read though that even after she regained consciousness the victim was forced to submit to medical treatment it is not clear she consented to.

I didn't get that from her statement, and I think you're almost wilfully missing the point.

People the world over are outraged about the sentence, because the judge, and others are doing what so frequently happens in rape cases - they focus on the past of the victim and their actions that night, looking for causes, and then focus on the future of the rapist, and what they have to lose.

That's fucking rape culture. It's abhorrent, and it's way more common than you seem to think.

I'm with Normiss. Fuck that guy. Doesn't even have the balls to admit he fucked up.

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[SivaGanesha 2]

mistercwood

and then focus on the future of the rapist, and what they have to lose.

And then --at least in this case --after figuring out what he had to lose they took away everything he could possibly lose. Everything of value in his life was taken from him. And the rapist deserved that absolutely. But the idea that society's response here is somehow insufficient is also absolutely abhorrent.

Even the prosecutor agreed that the judge's sentence on the jail term was--although disappointing --absolutely legal.

And I see that I'm going to be screwed--at least in your eyes--no matter what I say regarding the victim. If I don't focus on her then I'm accused of ignoring her. If I do I'm accused of blaming. Neither response is fair to me.

I do not claim to know how common "rape culture" is in general. I claim only that culturally we did right by this particular victim. The victim herself said she didn't want the defendant to rot in prison. The probation officer apparently interpreted this to mean a desire for a shorter sentence than perhaps she intended. But there was no wilful attempt to do wrong by the victim.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[AndyBoyd 0]

normiss

Sounds like a rape culture attitude to me.
Are you serious?
Fuck that guy.

Yes, I was serious. I stated that it was arguable he should have received a higher sentence. Then I explained his life had permanently changed for the worse. Much worse. What's your problem with those comments?

[normiss 622]

It just seems quite in line with the rape culture we're discussing.
Your explanation of how tough it is to be a convicted rapist sounds almost sympathetic.
To me, those are exactly what a rapist deserves, much like the legal system and most citizens appear to feel as well. Maybe that's why the sex offender requirements were created? Maybe why the harsh prison sentence is the norm, not the exception?

Again, fuck that guy. Hey took something from that woman that will fuck with her for the rest of her life. Why are so many dismissing THAT?

Fuck that guy. He deserves a much harsher sentence.
I sincerely hope his life is fucked.

I hope everyone reads her letter.

[SivaGanesha 2]

normiss

Hey took something from that woman that will fuck with her for the rest of her life. Why are so many dismissing THAT?

No one--except for those close to the perp like the father and a few friends--is dismissing that. No one. That is why I say there is no "rape culture" involved in this case. Outside of a tiny inner circle surrounding the perp, there is unanimous support of the victim and condemnation of the rapist. The culture is virtually unanimously anti-rape.

He scarred this woman for life. Everyone agrees with that. That is why I say a punishment branding him for life--namely the sex offender registration--actually fits the crime very well. I can't speak for AndyBoyd but I would see the sex offender registration requirement as something the probation officer and the judge may have felt was sufficient punishment with just a little jail time added on. People are free to disagree and many, many apparently do but there is no justification for taking the judge's job away. The judge is generally respected, a former prosecutor specifically of sex offenders, and not generally seen as soft on crime. He is not one to wink at rape culture.

Incidentally the term "rape culture" appears to come from a 1976 feminist film of the same name. I am old enough to remember 1976 and, yes, attitudes were very different then. Rape culture was very real in 1976. If the same incident had happened in 1976, the cultural response would have been very different. His frat brothers would probably have cheered him on, cruel jokes would have been told about the victim, and if she'd dared to press charges, the charges would have been laughed off as "boys will be boys" and the judge would have wished him well in the Olympics. Plus the victim would have been blamed because of her own drinking whereas today her passing out is--correctly--understood to mean she is no longer able to consent.

But it is now 40 years later and cultural attitudes towards sexual assault are very different. There are still many individual rapists and even one rape is one too many. But there is no cultural support for rape these days. Some people are using language--"rape culture"--that fit the world of 40 or 50 years ago but no longer fits. This attack--and others like it--needs to be understood as act of a vile solitary rapist--not as something society is somehow supporting because society has been unanimous in condemning it.

I am also not against feminism. Feminism still has a huge role to play in 2016. But it needs to address the imbalances in gender relations as they exist today in 2016, not as existed back in 1976. This attack, for example, took place in the heart of Silicon Valley and the hi tech industry remains incredibly male dominated. In fact it has probably become even more male dominated in the last 30-40 years. Feminist thinking has a big role to play in helping us to understand why. But sometimes feminist language seems to describe the world as it existed 40 years ago and no longer quite fits the current situation.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[normiss 622]

"actually fits the crime very well"

Horse hockey.
If the State of California felt that way, they wouldn't typically send someone to prison for 3-8 years, as he should have gotten, nor would that be the sentence that is currently written into State law.
Instead it would simply say "sex offender for life", but it doesn't, and for damn good reasons.

[SivaGanesha 2]

normiss

"actually fits the crime very well"

Horse hockey.
If the State of California felt that way, they wouldn't typically send someone to prison for 3-8 years, as he should have gotten, nor would that be the sentence that is currently written into State law.
Instead it would simply say "sex offender for life", but it doesn't, and for damn good reasons.

Of course you are right in the sense I was simply stating my own opinion and the State of California does disagree.

I personally consider the lifetime sex offender registration to be by far--it isn't even close--the more serious punishment. It is far more serious than even an 8 year prison term. If I were charged (fairly or unfairly) with a crime and were given a choice between sex offender registration and 8 years of incarceration (but no registration afterwards), the decision would be a no brainer for me: I'd pick the straight sentence of 8 years without the registration. My decision would be even easier if I were still 20 years old and could look forward to being released while still relatively young.

My understanding is that defense attorneys are aware that the sex offender registration, not the prison term, is the real punishment in such cases and try to negotiate plea bargains that don't require sex offender registration. If I had to guess (we may never know for sure), I'd guess that the reason why the Turner case went to trial (most cases are settled in plea bargains) is that the defense wanted a plea bargain with prison time but no sex offender registration afterwards--and the prosecution wouldn't do it.

The paperwork--excerpts of which at least have been posted online--that the judge considered in agreeing to a sentence of lifetime sex offender registration but with minimal jail time clearly shows that the probation officer considered the sex offender registration to be a very serious punishment. The judge was apparently persuaded by this argument. One can disagree with the actual sentence but the intent behind the sentence wasn't to go easy on a rapist--it was to punish him harshly. There is no culture of support for this guy.

I don't know if you are familiar with the Karla Homolka case in Canada a number of years ago--a Canadian woman who participated with her husband in many rapes and at least three rape-murders. The public was rightfully outraged that she got only 12 years but they should have been even more outraged that she was able to negotiate a plea bargain that allowed her to avoid sex offender registration after release. Without the sex offender registration, she is now allowed to mix and mingle at school events despite having participated in multiple rape-murders of schoolgirls. That is the real outrage--not just the length of her sentence.

But all that is only my own opinion. I am not disputing that others have the right to a different opinion. I am not really interested in debating exactly how harsh his penalty should be--I am simply taking note of the fact that people disagree on that as they always will.

What I AM interested in debating is whether--when everyone agrees that Turner should be punished and the only question is exactly how harshly--we can call it a rape culture.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[mistercwood 287]

SivaGanesha

What I AM interested in debating is whether--when everyone agrees that Turner should be punished and the only question is exactly how harshly--we can call it a rape culture.

You state that the condemnation of Brock is unanimous. It's not. Go into the comments on any article on the case and there are examples of people still going the victim-blaming route - saying she shouldn't have gotten so drunk, asking if she was leading him on earlier etc. The examples are certainly the minority, but they exist and they exemplify the pockets of society that still don't get it.

I get that you're making an effort to understand here, and that's good. But I still think that your working definition of "rape culture" is off-base. Have a read through the examples in this link, maybe it'll frame things a little better:

http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/03/examples-of-rape-culture/

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[AndyBoyd 0]

normiss

It just seems quite in line with the rape culture we're discussing.
Your explanation of how tough it is to be a convicted rapist sounds almost sympathetic.
To me, those are exactly what a rapist deserves, much like the legal system and most citizens appear to feel as well. Maybe that's why the sex offender requirements were created? Maybe why the harsh prison sentence is the norm, not the exception?

Again, fuck that guy. Hey took something from that woman that will fuck with her for the rest of her life. Why are so many dismissing THAT?

Fuck that guy. He deserves a much harsher sentence.
I sincerely hope his life is fucked.

I hope everyone reads her letter.

I read the victim impact statement. It was eloquent and powerful. I hope this young lady is able to heal as well as possible and move forward with her life. That's the most important thing about this terrible incident. I should have made that clear in my first post here. My bad for not doing that.

Turner's life is sincerely fucked. That's what I was trying to point out in my original post. And I'll concede that he probably should have gotten a longer term of incarceration.

You've accused me twice of being part of a "rape culture." I'm asking you nicely now to knock it off. That's not who I am, and you have no basis for making that accusation.

[normiss 622]

I never said that. Sympathetic is spelled differently.

Anywho, More serious than sympathetic approaches.

I'm also sick of hearing the term "consensual", as if there is an "unconsensual" because there isn't.

[winsor 186]

normiss

I never said that. Sympathetic is spelled differently.

Anywho, More serious than sympathetic approaches.

I'm also sick of hearing the term "consensual", as if there is an "unconsensual" because there isn't.

That's vs. 'forcible,' which there is.

[normiss 622]

No, there's sex and there's rape. This is that black and white IMO.
That's exactly what 'forcible', rape.

[winsor 186]

normiss

No, there's sex and there's rape. This is that black and white IMO.
That's exactly what 'forcible', rape.

"Any penetration, however slight..."

UCMJ, IIRC

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi winsor,

Quote

UCMJ

I do not see how the UCMJ has anything to do with this incident. It is the laws of the state of California that are the applicable in this incident.

Jerry Baumchen

[turtlespeed 212]

JerryBaumchen

Hi winsor,

Quote

UCMJ

I do not see how the UCMJ has anything to do with this incident. It is the laws of the state of California that are the applicable in this incident.

Jerry Baumchen

I still cannot wrap my mind around the act that rope are defending his actions. Not like defending in court, but really believing he did nothing wrong.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SivaGanesha 2]

mistercwood

You state that the condemnation of Brock is unanimous. It's not. Go into the comments on any article on the case and there are examples of people still going the victim-blaming route - saying she shouldn't have gotten so drunk, asking if she was leading him on earlier etc. The examples are certainly the minority, but they exist and they exemplify the pockets of society that still don't get it.

It's been unanimous in this thread. The support for Turner has been pretty rare. Yes there are a few examples--his parents, a few of his old friends, and a few rare comments online from strangers. I personally have only seen one such comment anywhere--from someone who questioned whether she consented. So I must concede that Turner enjoys very small, very isolated pockets of support. But compare Turner's miniscule support with the million-plus signatures attacking not only Turner but the judge and I find it very hard to use the term "rape culture".

mistercwood

I get that you're making an effort to understand here, and that's good. But I still think that your working definition of "rape culture" is off-base. Have a read through the examples in this link, maybe it'll frame things a little better:

http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/03/examples-of-rape-culture/

I've just read this list. Many of these examples are things that I recall as being common during my youth but have become rare these days as the general societal attitudes have changed. But I wanted to focus on one thing in particular on this list that I think is especially unhelpful in stopping rape as it currently exists (and remember--I'm not denying that rape still exists and is tragic--I deny only that there is a "rape culture" supporting it):

15. Sexual assault prevention education programs that focus on women being told to take measures to prevent rape instead of men being told not to rape.

Telling men not to rape would work if there were indeed a "rape culture" supporting rapists because you need to change that culture. In fact I think this advice HAS worked in the past and is a big part of the reason why there is no longer a "rape culture"--and this is also why, although any rape is tragic and is one too many, rates of sexual assault have in fact been dropping over the years.

This is not good advice, however, for stopping rape as it currently exists in 2016. Telling Brock Turner not to rape would not have helped because he did not believe that he is a rapist. He STILL does not believe that he is a rapist. If you read his so-called apology you will see that it is even more offensive than his father's statement. Brock Turner apologizes repeatedly and profusely--but ONLY for drinking too much and engaging in "sexually promiscuous" behavior. He still sees himself only as a heavy drinker and a "sexually promiscuous" guy--not as a rapist.

Telling a guy like that not to rape just isn't going to help IMHO.

And if it is also unacceptable to focus on programs helping women to prevent rape because that is seen as "victim blaming"--well that is why I find that above piece of advice really unhelpful in actually stopping rape as it currently exists.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[billvon 2,400]

Quote

This is not good advice, however, for stopping rape as it currently exists in 2016. Telling Brock Turner not to rape would not have helped because he did not believe that he is a rapist. He STILL does not believe that he is a rapist.

That is because there is a common belief among some men (not all, not even most, just some) that getting so drunk that they can't think straight, and then having sex with women who are so drunk that they can't think straight, is not just OK - it's the definition of a good weekend. And if the woman passes out? That works for them. Heck, neither person may remember it, in which case there's no one to complain. Thus when that sort of situation comes along, they act on it, and they consider it to be "not rape."

And that is part of the rape culture that allows it to happen. We see it in popular culture all the time - the scene in Animal House where an unconscious woman ends up in a teen's bed, and the teen says "thank you God!" Or more recently, the Bloomingdale's ad showing a man and a woman with the caption “Spike your best friend’s eggnog when they’re not looking." Or the Budweiser ad that says that their beer is "the perfect beer for removing 'no' from your vocabulary for the night." That's the culture that surrounds boys who are growing up today. So when they see a woman passed out on the street, there is going to be a bias, coming from popular culture, towards thinking "well, that beer sure worked on her!" Most men have no problem ignoring that bias. Some, clearly, do have a problem.

So yes, just "telling a guy like that not to rape just isn't going to help." Educating them on what rape IS - and that they should avoid that as well - will help.

[SivaGanesha 2]

Thank you for drawing my attention to the Bloomingdale's and Budweiser ads. I had not previously been aware of those ads so I've learned something from your post. But the quick cultural response to those ads appears to have been one of quick rejection. I'm still having trouble seeing where the rape culture is here.

I remain deeply disturbed by the public treatment of the judge here. It seems to me that just as it is inappropriate to disrespect a greenie on dz.com it is inappropriate to disrespect a judge in the larger society.

He's been told by a jury of his peers what rape is. And he still doesn't get it. I'm not sure what form of education would work. As for what I myself believe I actually do favor harsh punishment. I had thought lifetime sex offender would be sufficient punishment. If others disagree I am willing to listen. I am completely willing to consider harsher punishments. But disrespecting a judge in his own courtroom--as happened this week with the prospective jurors who refused to serve under Judge Persky--is definitely beyond the pale.

You can disrespect ME--I am neither a judge nor a greenie--but disrespecting the right of a judge to lay down the law in his own courtroom is way out of line.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Kadde 0]

DJL

***And for anyone who read or joined the bathroom discussion - this is apparently the guy you dont want in a bathroom with your daughter.

I saw the infographic come across my FB feed and thought that was the dumbest interpretation of either of the issues that anyone could make.

Its more humor than anything else. We're gonna see the same logic being used now after the gay club shooting.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Quote

Turner has lost everything

Whatever dude.

[DJL 232]

The judge needed to realize that there is also a court of public opinion in a case like this and handing down a stiff verdict would actually be of benefit to the rapist. The sentence can always be reduced at a later date.

I've always had mixed feelings on the lifelong sex offender registration issue. Sexual assault is a terrible crime but the registration does not provide for a concise term for the punishment of that crime. It's a sort of scarlet letter that leaves the individual in a protracted punishment from the public at large. As a 20-year-old you could kill a 17-year-old and serve a quantity of time in prison. A 20-year-old who had consensual sex with a 17-year-old has not limit to the term on their punishment. I'm leaving out any reference to a rape or sexual assault in bringing this up just exemplifying that the sex offender brand is cast far and wide.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[normiss 622]

"but disrespecting the right of a judge to lay down the law in his own courtroom is way out of line. "

Umm, no, not even remotely accurate.
Which is exactly why other judges are condemning this as entirely unacceptable.
Precedence and all.

Judges need to be kept in check. Removed when needed.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Agreed, I don't agree with the sex offender registry at all.

But somebody comparing this idiot losing his ability to swim competitively in the US with Mike Tyson being allowed to box and concluding this dude has lost everything, is insane.