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kallend

If gun-free zones are a bad idea

By kallend, in Speakers Corner

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BartsDaddy    4

BartsDaddy
Well people that have a CCW can carry loaded at tha crossroads of the west gun show. So it is not a gun free zone. They do not want someone looking to buy a gun pick one up off a table and shoot someone. That is the reason for the sign. In addition to that all private parties,bringing in a gun to sell or get apraised has to have it inspected and the action locked open and zip tied.
This gun was from a dealers table. The dealer did not clear it properly and zip tied it with the action closed on a live round.
Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

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wolfriverjoe    1,351

wolfriverjoe
kallend

why are loaded guns forbidden at gun shows?

www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-accidentally-shoots-friend-phoenix-gun-show-article-1.2456913



Actually, there are a variety of reasons.

The venue may prohibit. Shows are usually held in expo centers or exhibit halls. Some have a "no guns" policy.

The venue usually requires some level of insurance for anyone holding a show. That insurance may require no loaded guns.

And there are a lot of stupid people at those shows.

Basic safe gun handling behavior is virtually non-existent. Idiots looking at guns are apt to point them anywhere and at anyone (rules #1 & #2 are "Treat every gun as if it's loaded" and "Always point a gun in a safe direction").

Besides, there are lots of loaded guns at every gun show I've been to. The organizers usually have them. Many vendors will also have them (in violation of the posted rules). Yet these sorts of accidents are pretty rare.

And, if you look at the incident posted, the idiot ignored or violated just about every safe gun handling rule in the book. And a few that are basic common sense for purchasing anything.

Somehow, he bought the gun without ever checking the chamber. Or looking down the barrel. That's like buying a car without lifting the hood.

He was also handling it without checking to see if it was loaded. Again, the first thing a person should do when handling a gun is to visually check to see if it's loaded.

Somehow, he pointed it at his friend and pulled the trigger. Why?

Again, don't point a gun at anything you don't plan on shooting, and don't pull the trigger unless you want it to go "bang!" (there are specific dry fire drills, but those have their own safety rules that include making sure the gun is not loaded, not pointing it at anyone, making sure the background is clear and a few other things).

So there are a lot of basic safety rules that were violated in this. Darwin at his finest.

And last, the story says "Even gun nuts aren’t safe at gun shows."

Fair and balanced coverage?
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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wolfriverjoe    1,351

wolfriverjoe
quade

***And there are a lot of stupid people at those shows.



I want you to think carefully about what you just wrote. I'm not disagreeing. Not at all. I think that is THE issue.

Not sure what you mean.

I volunteer as a range safety officer at my local range. I see it on a regular basis. We have a very busy period in the fall, leading up to Whitetail Deer hunting season. We call it "silly season", partly because it gets very busy, partly because we have to deal with people who handle guns very infrequently.

I see "stupid" often enough that I would not go out into the woods on opening day. The vast majority of the shooters are thoughtful, intelligent, careful, conscientious and safe. But there are a few each year that make me want to ask:

"You're going to be in the woods, carrying a loaded gun?!?"

Hunter's Safety education is a requirement in Wisconsin for anyone born after 1973. But they only have to take it once, and for some it's been a long time.

And some people are just careless.
We have strict rules in place, especially for when people are going down range. And the basic rules are enforced too.

I agree that stupid people with guns are a bad idea. So are stupid people behind the wheel of a car.

But there's no real intelligence test for a driver's license (have you ever met anyone who couldn't pass the test?).

And while I could agree in principle with training requirements to handle guns, in practice the anti-gun crowd would likely use that to create unrealistic, expensive, outrageous "training requirements" to try to control guns.

I'd agree in principle for intelligence and knowledge tests being required for voters too. But that's been barred for some very good reasons.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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jgoose71    0

jgoose71
quade

***And there are a lot of stupid people at those shows.



I want you to think carefully about what you just wrote. I'm not disagreeing. Not at all. I think that is THE issue.

Of the 10 of MILLIONS of people that attend gun shows every year there was A accident.

Despite the assertions that they are all stupid, I've got to say I feel safer there than i do behind a wheel. The drive there is usually the most dangerous part....:ph34r:

Statistically speaking of course....
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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wolfriverjoe    1,351

wolfriverjoe
jgoose71



Of the 10 of MILLIONS of people that attend gun shows every year there was AN accident.

Despite the assertions that they are all stupid, I've got to say I feel safer there than i do behind a wheel. The drive there is usually the most dangerous part....:ph34r:

Statistically speaking of course....



I'm not saying that they are all stupid. Far from it.

But there are a lot of them.

The very low level of accidents (even if there were three) tells me that the safeguards work. At least most of the time.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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aphid    0

aphid
normiss

ATF numbers are less than 100,000 attendees per year with an average of 5000 shows, 2500 to 15000 attendees per show.



Are there some accidental typo's in here? 5000 shows at 2500 attendees totals 12,500,000. Or am I missing something?


Quote

Averaging one accidental shooting per show.



5000 accidental shootings at gun shows annually? Can you provide the ATF report that states this?

John

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normiss    622

normiss

Whoa! LOL
Funny I didn't even catch that.
I had heard some interesting numbers recently, maybe that's why it stuck. Apologies for being wayyyy off. :S
Wiki results

Also not sure if that accidents number is an ATF number, it came back from Google.

I'm either not awake, or my google fu is jacked up this morning.

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jgoose71    0

jgoose71
wolfriverjoe

***

Of the 10 of MILLIONS of people that attend gun shows every year there was AN accident.

Despite the assertions that they are all stupid, I've got to say I feel safer there than i do behind a wheel. The drive there is usually the most dangerous part....:ph34r:

Statistically speaking of course....



I'm not saying that they are all stupid. Far from it.

But there are a lot of them.

The very low level of accidents (even if there were three) tells me that the safeguards work. At least most of the time.

I would say more than most of the time. Once again, despite any stereo-typing the left might try to pull, this is probably one of the safest crowds you could probably hang around.

I would be willing to bet just about everyone at one of these events knows the basic firearm handling safety rules. I would also venture to say that any shooting that might happen would be a result of complacency, and not because of malicious intent. Have you ever heard of an actual murder at a gun show?

"Let's go attack an NRA convention...." said no terrorist EVER....:D

Edited to add: not to take away from your points above though. A refresher from time to time after a long sabbatical is never a bad idea....
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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jgoose71    0

jgoose71
RMK

You can't just make up your own statistics. It is unfortunately quite common. Here's 5 shot in three separate states at multiple gun shows - on the same day.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/19/accidental-shooting-gun-show/1847879/



OK you got me. What is the count now? 6 out of 10's of millions?

I guess we had better disarm the estimated 700,000 to 4.5 million a year that have used guns to save their life or protect their property just so that way you can say you saved 6 lives...

As Normiss said earlier... "Because Maths:P"
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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rushmc    18

rushmc
aphid

***ATF numbers are less than 100,000 attendees per year with an average of 5000 shows, 2500 to 15000 attendees per show.



Are there some accidental typo's in here? 5000 shows at 2500 attendees totals 12,500,000. Or am I missing something?


Quote

Averaging one accidental shooting per show.





5000 accidental shootings at gun shows annually? Can you provide the ATF report that states this?

John

I have been to over a hundred gun shows in my life.

Not one shooting observed
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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turtlespeed    212

turtlespeed
JerryBaumchen

Hi turtle,

Quote

Don't ruin his own image of himself.



I challenge you to show me one incidence of John Kallend being wrong on this website.

Jerry Baumchen



There are several instances.

If I find the time, I'll compile some of them.

But then . . . is mistaken not allowable, perhaps incorrect?

What is "wrong"?

He is constantly wrong, if wrong thinking can be wrong.

I think we need more parameters.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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wolfriverjoe    1,351

wolfriverjoe
jgoose71


...I would be willing to bet just about everyone at one of these events knows the basic firearm handling safety rules. I would also venture to say that any shooting that might happen would be a result of complacency, and not because of malicious intent. Have you ever heard of an actual murder at a gun show?...



Not in my experience.

There are a lot of new and uninformed and uneducated (at least w/r/t guns) people at the shows.

And basic rules (like keep it pointed in a safe direction at all times) aren't enforced.

People who have zero training, or people who think the rules don't apply to them will swing muzzles with no regard for where they are pointing. I had one idiot point a closed pistol right at me (a number of years ago before they required them to be zip tied open). When I objected, he replied "its not loaded."

I told him I didn't give a shit, and if he didn't know any better than to not point a gun at someone, he had no business holding it. I then asked if he even knew the rules for safe gun handling and what they were. He was totally clueless.

The level of inexperience is one of the reasons they require the guns to be empty, and because of accidents despite the rules, they now require them to be zip tied open.

Kind of related and pretty funny:

I did a shift as Range Officer this morning. The day after Christmas is usually pretty busy. Santa was generous this year. I was checking in a couple of new members, and when I started to go over the rules, one guy said something like "Rules? We have to follow rules?" I knew he was kidding, but replied with something like: "Well, if everyone was careful, competent, intelligent, careful and safe; we wouldn't need rules. But because we have stupid people who do stupid things, we have carefully thought out, clearly spelled out, thoroughly enforced rules."
He laughed and agreed.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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jgoose71    0

jgoose71
wolfriverjoe

***
...I would be willing to bet just about everyone at one of these events knows the basic firearm handling safety rules. I would also venture to say that any shooting that might happen would be a result of complacency, and not because of malicious intent. Have you ever heard of an actual murder at a gun show?...



Not in my experience.

There are a lot of new and uninformed and uneducated (at least w/r/t guns) people at the shows.

And basic rules (like keep it pointed in a safe direction at all times) aren't enforced.

People who have zero training, or people who think the rules don't apply to them will swing muzzles with no regard for where they are pointing. I had one idiot point a closed pistol right at me (a number of years ago before they required them to be zip tied open). When I objected, he replied "its not loaded."

I told him I didn't give a shit, and if he didn't know any better than to not point a gun at someone, he had no business holding it. I then asked if he even knew the rules for safe gun handling and what they were. He was totally clueless.

The level of inexperience is one of the reasons they require the guns to be empty, and because of accidents despite the rules, they now require them to be zip tied open.

Kind of related and pretty funny:

I did a shift as Range Officer this morning. The day after Christmas is usually pretty busy. Santa was generous this year. I was checking in a couple of new members, and when I started to go over the rules, one guy said something like "Rules? We have to follow rules?" I knew he was kidding, but replied with something like: "Well, if everyone was careful, competent, intelligent, careful and safe; we wouldn't need rules. But because we have stupid people who do stupid things, we have carefully thought out, clearly spelled out, thoroughly enforced rules."
He laughed and agreed.

OK, I'll give you that. From what I understand there are a lot of first time gun owners this year. What was it? 2 Million background checks in November alone?:ph34r:
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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