8 yr old girl shot dead by 11yr old boy

[billvon 2,467]

Quote

USA:
-homicide rate per 100,000 residents = 4.7
-gun ownership per 100 residents = 112.6
-total homicide (not just by gun) per firearm ratio = 1 homicide/24 guns

Europe (all Eruopean countries totaled and averaged):
-homicide rate per 100,000 residents = 2.45
-gun ownership per 100 residents = 13.58
-total homicide (not just by gun) per firearm ratio = 1 homicide/5.5 guns

So to drive down the number of homicides per gun the solution is simple - buy more guns. I think you just discovered the NRA's 2017 slogan!

[jakee 1,274]

jbscout2002

1 homicide per 24 guns in the USA vs 1 homicide per 5.5 guns in Europe means that despite the much larger availability of guns in the USA, people in Europe are between 4 and 5 times more likely to kill each other with guns.

Not twisting anything. Just using the same numbers and comparisons other people are making and putting them into prospective

You're twisted in knots. People in Europe (even including what was behind the iron curtain) are much less likely to kill each other with guns than people in the USA.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jbscout2002 1]

jakee

***1 homicide per 24 guns in the USA vs 1 homicide per 5.5 guns in Europe means that despite the much larger availability of guns in the USA, people in Europe are between 4 and 5 times more likely to kill each other with guns.

Not twisting anything. Just using the same numbers and comparisons other people are making and putting them into prospective

You're twisted in knots. People in Europe (even including what was behind the iron curtain) are much less likely to kill each other with guns than people in the USA.

They are more likely to kill people with knives and baseball bats

[jbscout2002 1]

Leading causes of preventable deaths by percentage in the USA:

1. Medical errors in hospitals - 23.1%
2. Smoking tobacco - 18.1%
3. Obesity - 4.6%
4. Alcohol abuse - 3.5%
5. Infectious diseases - 3.1%
6. Toxic agents - 2.3%
7. Traffic collisions - 1.8%
8. Preventable colorectal cancers - 1.7%
9. Firearms deaths (all) - 1.3%
10. Sexually transmitted diseases - 0.8%
11. Drug abuse - 0.7%

Put the same amount of effort into providing better oversight in hospitals and banning smoking as you do into banning guns, and you save 31.69 x the number of people gun control would save if it were effective

That is 12,563 lives lost to firearms x 31.69 = 398,121 lives lost to doctors mistakes and smoking.

[jakee 1,274]

jbscout2002

******1 homicide per 24 guns in the USA vs 1 homicide per 5.5 guns in Europe means that despite the much larger availability of guns in the USA, people in Europe are between 4 and 5 times more likely to kill each other with guns.

Not twisting anything. Just using the same numbers and comparisons other people are making and putting them into prospective

You're twisted in knots. People in Europe (even including what was behind the iron curtain) are much less likely to kill each other with guns than people in the USA.

They are more likely to kill people with knives and baseball bats

Are they? Because if I take the USA's non-firearm murder rate and compare it to the entire murder rate of, say, the UK or Italy or Germany the USA's rate is still at least 60% higher.

Go 'Merca
(Plus we don't tend to play very much baseball anywhere in western europe, so even without the numbers it's a fairly odd claim...)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,467]

Quote

Leading causes of preventable deaths by percentage in the USA:

1. Medical errors in hospitals - 23.1%
2. Smoking tobacco - 18.1%
3. Obesity - 4.6%
4. Alcohol abuse - 3.5%

Well, there ya go. Sell your AAD and get a 69 square foot canopy; skydiving is much safer than hospitals. (And sell your gun - you are much more likely to be killed by a hospital than by a criminal.)

Clearly the only way you will live to a reasonable age is by getting your MD so you can save yourself from hospital errors.

[jbscout2002 1]

jakee

Are they? Because if I take the USA's non-firearm murder rate and compare it to the entire murder rate of, say, the UK or Italy or Germany the USA's rate is still at least 60% higher.

Doesn't this show that the whole theory of guns causing violence is bullshit?

You can't really compare our gun crime to other countries gun crime without comparing our non gun crime to other countries non gun crime.

[DanG 1]

Forget requiring a license for using a gun. There should be a license for using statistics.

'cause this thread's killin' me.

- Dan G

[jbscout2002 1]

Don't know if anyone has seen this yet. About the armed vet that was on campus when the shooting happened.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/armed-vet-destroys-gun-nuts-argument-on-mass-shooters-by-explaining-why-he-didnt-attack-oregon-killer/

[jakee 1,274]

Not necessarily. For instance, in the UK the percentage of homicides involving firearms is around 5%. In the US it's around 65%. Even allowing for your far greater bloodlust it's likely that a significant portion of that 65% wouldn't have occured if it wasn't so damned easy.

(BTW, do you just not care when you're shown to be wrong on any factual point, or is it just a tactic to skip from one argument to the next, or what?)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jbscout2002 1]

billvon

Well, there ya go. Sell your AAD and get a 69 square foot canopy; skydiving is much safer than hospitals. (And sell your gun - you are much more likely to be killed by a hospital than by a criminal.)

I carry a gun, so I think I'm more likely to by killed by a meteorite than a criminal.

[RMK 3]

SkyDekker

Quote

How about comparing to Europe then, with all the EU's praised gun control?

Homicide rate per 100,000 residents according to most recent UNODC reports:

Greenland 19.4
Russia 9.2
Lithuania 6.7
Moldova 6.5
Belarus 5.7
Estonia 5.0
Latvia 4.7
USA 4.7
Ukraine 4.3

LMAO.....with comments like this, please don't expect to be taken seriously.

Moldova.....lol...yeah that is who you want to be compared to?

Yes, no understanding of Western Europe (per the inference to good to good laws) with CEE countries which comprise his examples.

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[billvon 2,467]

>I carry a gun, so I think I'm more likely to by killed by a meteorite than
>a criminal.

Actually you are far more likely to be killed with your own gun than being killed by a meteorite, but that's probably something you can't accept.

[jbscout2002 1]

jakee

(BTW, do you just not care when you're shown to be wrong on any factual point, or is it just a tactic to skip from one argument to the next, or what?)

I just don't believe the numbers you are throwing around to be any more "factual" than mine. Contrary to the accusations, I'm not making it up, twisting it, or lying. I'm getting my numbers the exact same way you are. I google shit, pick a link off the first page of results, and copy over numbers.

Can you conclusively say that each firearm murder would not have happened if e murder was only able to find a knife or some other object rather than a gun?

Do you believe it to be fact that with 67% of our violent crime being committed by firearms, that our violent crime will simply see a 67% reduction if we remove the guns?

If handguns are allowed in two cities of equal population, but neither allows CCW, and crime data shows an equal number of murders, then city A bans handguns while city be passes CCW on the same day, then 12 months later, city A has shown a 30% increase in murders and City B has shown a 30% decrease in murders, then I tend to believe gun control is counter productive. In this same scenario, you would see it as inconclusive data, or false reports compiled by right wing nuts.

[jbscout2002 1]

billvon

>I carry a gun, so I think I'm more likely to by killed by a meteorite than
>a criminal.

Actually you are far more likely to be killed with your own gun than being killed by a meteorite, but that's probably something you can't accept.

If you say so. My grandfather is a WW2 and Korean War vet. My dad and both of his brothers are Nam vets. My dad has been a police officer since 1992. I got my first gun when I was 10 (only allowed to use it with supervision). I spent 8 months in Kosovo, 18 months in Afghanistan, and 39 months in Iraq.

Everyone in my family is pretty comfortable with guns.

[gowlerk 1,952]

Quote

I carry a gun, so I think I'm more likely to by killed by a meteorite than a criminal.

You are most likely to be killed by yourself. As you know. As far as a gun protecting you from other people, you will probably lose that fight unless you shoot first. Which you also already know.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[christelsabine 1]

jbscout2002

Don't know if anyone has seen this yet. About the armed vet that was on campus when the shooting happened.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/10/armed-vet-destroys-gun-nuts-argument-on-mass-shooters-by-explaining-why-he-didnt-attack-oregon-killer/

You're posting here like there's no tomorrow - or is it just your job?

Anyhow, it would be nice if you finally try to learn how to use provided helps to make a link *clicky*

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[jakee 1,274]

Quote

I just don't believe the numbers you are throwing around to be any more "factual" than mine.

And yet they are. The interpretation's better too.

Quote

I'm getting my numbers the exact same way you are. I google shit, pick a link off the first page of results, and copy over numbers.

So the numbers involved in your knife / baseball bat claim were...?

Quote

Can you conclusively say that each firearm murder would not have happened if e murder was only able to find a knife or some other object rather than a gun?

No, but why would I? It's obviously not true and I never claimed it.

Quote

Do you believe it to be fact that with 67% of our violent crime being committed by firearms, that our violent crime will simply see a 67% reduction if we remove the guns?

Of course not. Why are you asking such silly questions?

Quote

then I tend to believe gun control is counter productive.

You believe gun control is ineffective because you invented a hypothetical scenario that shows one part of gun control to be ineffective?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,274]

Quote

Everyone in my family is pretty comfortable with guns.

I bet all the guys who shot themselves while giving gun safety classes were/are pretty comfortable with guns too. How many of them did you ever hear of getting hit by space rock?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jbscout2002 1]

Haven't figured out how to sticky link stuff with my iPad and I'm pretty much done posting. I've been mostly bed ridden for the last two weeks from an operation, but I'm able to move around better now, so my wife can have her iPad back.

[jbscout2002 1]

jakee

Quote

Everyone in my family is pretty comfortable with guns.

I bet all the guys who shot themselves while giving gun safety classes were/are pretty comfortable with guns too. How many of them did you ever hear of getting hit by space rock?

If you accidentally shoot yourself - Darwinism.

If you are struck down by a space rock - there really is a mythical wizard floating in the clouds, and he hates you.

[billvon 2,467]

>If you say so. . . . Everyone in my family is pretty comfortable with guns.

That's great that you are comfortable with them. You are still more likely to be killed because you are carrying one. As I suspected, you will not be able to accept that, despite it being proven in several studies.

=================
Feb 7, 2009
Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault

Charles C. Branas, PhD, Therese S. Richmond, PhD, CRNP, Dennis P. Culhane, PhD, Thomas R. Ten Have, PhD, MPH, and Douglas J. Wiebe, PhD

ABSTRACT

Objectives. We investigated the possible relationship between being shot in an assault and possession of a gun at the time.

Methods. We enrolled 677 case participants that had been shot in an assault and 684 population-based control participants within Philadelphia, PA, from 2003 to 2006. We adjusted odds ratios for confounding variables.

Results. After adjustment, individuals in possession of a gun were 4.46 (P < .05) times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession. Among gun assaults where the victim had at least some chance to resist, this adjusted odds ratio increased to 5.45 (P < .05).

Conclusions. On average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault.
================
Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home

Arthur L. Kellermann, Frederick P. Rivara, Norman B. Rushforth, Joyce G. Banton, Donald T. Reay, Jerry T. Francisco, Ana B. Locci, Janice Prodzinski, Bela B. Hackman, and Grant Somes

New England Journal of Medicine 1993

During the study period, 1860 homicides occurred in the three counties, 444 of them (23.9 percent) in the home of the victim. After excluding 24 cases for various reasons, we interviewed proxy respondents for 93 percent of the victims. Controls were identified for 99 percent of these, yielding 388 matched pairs. As compared with the controls, the victims more often lived alone or rented their residence. Also, case households more commonly contained an illicit-drug user, a person with prior arrests, or someone who had been hit or hurt in a fight in the home. After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.6 to 4.4). Virtually all of this risk involved homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Conclusions

. . .Rather than confer protection, guns kept in the home are associated with an increase in the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.
===============
Journal of Trauma-Injury Infection & Critical Care:
August 1998 - Volume 45

Abstract

Objectives: Determine the relative frequency with which guns in the home are used to injure or kill in self-defense, compared with the number of times these weapons are involved in an unintentional injury, suicide attempt, or criminal assault or homicide.

Methods: We reviewed the police, medical examiner, emergency medical service, emergency department, and hospital records of all fatal and nonfatal shootings in three U.S. cities: Memphis, Tennessee; Seattle, Washington; and Galveston, Texas.

Results: During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, including three that involved law enforcement officers acting in the line of duty. For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

Conclusions: Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
========================

[jakee 1,274]

jbscout2002

***

Quote

Everyone in my family is pretty comfortable with guns.

I bet all the guys who shot themselves while giving gun safety classes were/are pretty comfortable with guns too. How many of them did you ever hear of getting hit by space rock?

If you accidentally shoot yourself - Darwinism.

If you are struck down by a space rock - there really is a mythical wizard floating in the clouds, and he hates you.

Oh hey look, jbscout dodges the point. I'm shocked I tell you. Shocked and amazed

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 18]

When you want to post a link that is clicky

Click the "url" button at the bottom of the text window, paste your link, click the button a second time

The second one will have a / slash in front

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

christelsabine

Anyhow, it would be nice if you finally try to learn how to use provided helps to make a link *clicky*

You know, someone helped me once learn how do make a link clicky

but it takes being less bitchy to help someone learn

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln