BIGUN 1,053 #26 June 5, 2015 wmw999If the physical requirements are reviewed regularly and updated as the job changes, then such is life. If the physical reauirements were set in WW2 based on equipment available then, maybe they should be reviewed based on the job as it is now. Technological changes have been incorporated into the requirements I'm sure. People who can't meet regularly-reviewed requirements probably don't belong in the job. People who can't meet "this is the way we've always done it" requirements might. After all, remember Vasquez in "Aliens." Wendy P. The requirements have changed since WWII - They've gotten harder since Vietnam. Long before women were a factor for consideration. What gets most volunteers of which there is little preparation for is the lack of sleep and food with a very high energy output.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TriGirl 268 #27 June 5, 2015 JohnMitchell *** I agree, there should not be two standards. At the state fair the Marines have a booth where you can do chin ups on a bar to win prizes. 5 will get you a USMC lanyard, 10 will get the hat, and 20 will get the t-shirt. No cheating doing those Crossfit half chins. These are full up, full down. My dozen chinups got me the hat. My 20-something daughter, being a female, only had to "hang from the bar" for 60 seconds to get the t-shirt. . . Even the Marines are going double standard. Have you ever tried to hold that flexed arm hang? I know few men who can do it anywhere near as well as the women, though there still is the perception of ours being easier. The physical fitness tests have always been different. Over the years our PFT has been evolving to match, but we're not there yet. When I first came in, men ran three miles while women ran 1.5 (about 18 yrs ago we went to 3-mile run as well). We also standardized the sit-up portion across the board (same number, same amount of time, same points). The last thing to change is the "upper body" portion of the test. However, we're finally transitioning to pull-ups as well. Currently, a female Marine can do either the arm hang or pull-ups, but eventually the arm hang will be phased out. Interestingly, it was the female Marines (at least the ones I knew) making the argument to change the requirement. Just wish they had changed it when I was in my 20s and COULD do a bunch of dead-hang pull-ups!! Oh well. I'll just suck it up and make it happen. See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus Shut Up & Jump! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,121 #28 June 5, 2015 Sounds like re evaluation to me Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #29 June 5, 2015 TriGirl Have you ever tried to hold that flexed arm hang? They had her doing a dead hang, and being in pretty good shape she did well. I'm not familiar with the flexed arm hang. How flexed, and for how long? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,053 #30 June 5, 2015 wmw999Sounds like re evaluation to me Wendy P. Given their history of mission success.. the school program is what makes them successful. I respectfully disagree. If many men can make it each year; you don't change the standards - because the missions sure aren't going to change. You know how many men either flunk or quit? It's because they too - did not meet the standard. I have no issues with any woman who can pass the program. But, changing the program will only dilute the requirements to be mission successful. It's not another social experiment to be manipulating the standards. If they can make the existing standard; then God Bless.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,121 #31 June 5, 2015 What I said was that if the standards are re evaluated with some regularity, then they are what they are, and both genders should have to pass them. So if the current batch of women didn't make it, they didn't make it. I think we're in violent agreement, and what I posted wasn't clear enough. Sorry. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,053 #32 June 5, 2015 No worries lass. Have a good weekend... I'm a gonna Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #33 June 5, 2015 Zep *** Quote You do know, Battlestar Galactica is not real? Don't you? as he does not know the difference between gelatin and Jello. Oh, I thought for a minute you were going to say Go easy on our esteemed fellow skydiver Andy as he lost touch with reality the day he took the BarAha... So that's it! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TriGirl 268 #34 June 5, 2015 JohnMitchell*** Have you ever tried to hold that flexed arm hang? They had her doing a dead hang, and being in pretty good shape she did well. I'm not familiar with the flexed arm hang. How flexed, and for how long? Those recruiters would have put her in the correct position. Palms facing in, chin above the bar. Hold it. Max points is 70 seconds. You may lower yourself toward the full hanging position (arms ALMOST straight), but the clock stops when your arms are straight. I've known very young/slender girls hold it for nearly three minutes. I've known men who could easily do 20 pull-ups not be able to "hang" for more than 15 seconds. However, in training for pull-ups, during one test I was able to pull myself back up to having my chin over the bar after I had started to lower myself down. Minimum hang time to pass: 15 seconds. Minimum number of pull-ups to pass: 3.See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus Shut Up & Jump! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #35 June 6, 2015 TriGirl Those recruiters would have put her in the correct position. Palms facing in, chin above the bar. Hold it. Max points is 70 seconds. You may lower yourself toward the full hanging position (arms ALMOST straight), but the clock stops when your arms are straight. Okay, yeah, I think I remember that. I'll give it a try and let you know back. I don't have a chin up bar in the garage, just a couple of handles on rope from the ceiling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFKING 3 #36 June 6, 2015 QuotePalms facing in, chin above the bar. Marine fitness requirement is with the palms-in ? I would have assumed palms-out. You're not going to have a palms-in option when trying to scale a wall or a fence. Don"When in doubt I whip it out, I got me a rock-and-roll band. It's a free-for-all." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldwomanc6 38 #37 June 6, 2015 PLFKINGQuotePalms facing in, chin above the bar. Marine fitness requirement is with the palms-in ? I would have assumed palms-out. You're not going to have a palms-in option when trying to scale a wall or a fence. Don Palms in or out, you can change during the test. No Kip.lisa WSCR 594 FB 1023 CBDB 9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nataly 38 #38 June 6, 2015 When I was in th RCAF as an AVN Tech (Aviation Systems Technician - or "aircraft mechanic" for all you civilians), I can tell you that the standards by which we were evaluated were archaic and irrelevant to the job we were doing. Doing mechanical work is not about strength... In fact, you have tools for just about everything that enables the "weakest" person to fix the machines... What *is* important (among other things) is dexterity and size - neither of which were tested for or rewarded in the reviews... I can tell you that being a small girl was EXTREMELY useful for accessing parts, wiring, crawling into small spaces, fetching dropped tools... Also, having very good dexterity (from 10+ years of piano) was FAR better than raw strength as you regularly fiddle with small parts and do work that requires a lot of finess. So I was very sought after for the most difficult jobs, but this was only reflected in the "comments" section and not in the part that actually counts. Just one of many many many way in which women bring something new (and better) to the table that no one had thought of when they started "lowering" standards to accept the feeble female into the military... And lemme tell ya... ALL the women I've ever worked with in my military career were WAY better than their (male) colleagues at just about everything (except getting promotions). They had to be. I mean, one woman was so amazingly awesome that she made it all the way to Warrant Officer (at the very end of her extended career)... And STILL some retarded asshat had the balls to ask "who'd *she* sleep with to get that rank?" Seriously - she should have gotten that promotion WAY earlier and gone much farther in her career. [slaps forehead] (BTW, "sleeping your way to the top" doesn't actually work - in fact, it is the surest way to lose everyone's respect and never ever get promoted. Ever. Even if the fucking around isn't real and only a rumour... ) From my experience, the standards by which we were juged were stupid and your actual ability to do the job was less important than politics and having a penis. I'm not bitter about it but it does rile me up to hear ignorant bullshit on the subject. My experience was not that women slowed down the men. It was actually the exact opposite. "There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse." - Chris Hadfield « Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. » - my boss Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #39 June 6, 2015 I can certainly agree that women are the intellectual equal to men, and can outdo us at many tasks, esp. involving dexterity, etc. My favorite ortho surgeon (3 operations so far) is a woman, highly regarded by all. I wouldn't see anyone else. Some of the women controllers I worked with could move metal with the best of them. I enjoyed having them on the team. And certainly we have many excellent women at various jobs in the military. The ones I know are amazing. Now women even fly combat missions in fighter jets, attack bomber, helos, etc. But in jobs requiring raw strength, I think the genetics of sex will continue to favor men. Who do you want around to drag your wounded self back to cover when the $hit hits the fan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boomerdog 0 #40 June 7, 2015 There's a lot of amazing women in the military and I had the honor and privilege of serving and working with a few of them. Should women be serving in the military? Unequivocally yes. Aircraft mechanics are not specialized infantry i.e. Army Rangers. Both are important to the larger operational "big picture. The former is considered a logistical role where the latter is considered an operational role where the rigors and requirements of training established are designed to determine whether an individual has the requisite skills to close, engage and destroy an enemy and the enemy's capability to fight in the most extreme situations and environments. Thus, several points are important to consider. First is that we forget that approximately 50% of the males ALSO fail Ranger School based upon statistics reported by the Ranger School at Fort Benning, Georgia. Second, passing Ranger School does not make one a Ranger. It only means one has passed the fundamental training standards to be trained to full operational standards and capability. Training standards are tough and unforgiving given the fact that the military cannot fail when the military option is exercised by the civilian authority as the military option is the last option (in theory) utilized after economic and diplomatic sanctions against an adversary fail. Finally, what people see on the screen from Hollywood is simply a scripted narrative designed to make us believe that what is on the screen is real world. From experience, I can say this much; Hollywood doesn't have a clue. If the main character in "American Sniper" had not been a real person, it's doubtful IMHO that Hollywood would invest the $$$ to develop the story and film it much less find someone out of central casting to play the role. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #41 June 7, 2015 Girls are amazing. But they should not be rangers unless they are capable of "guy love"........ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKe7iX46UFE Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boomerdog 0 #42 June 7, 2015 10,000 unemployed comedians and you show up here! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 49 #43 June 8, 2015 Boomerdog 10,000 unemployed comedians and you show up here! Why did I expect a thread with "Camel's toe" in the subject line to rather be in Bonfire.....? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldwomanc6 38 #44 June 8, 2015 Erroll ***10,000 unemployed comedians and you show up here! Why did I expect a thread with "Camel's toe" in the subject line to rather be in Bonfire.....? Simple answer: the OP wanted to hear what those who post in BF had to say. Sure, the chances are that the thread would get moved eventually into the SC.. but he wanted to see what this group had to say (before it most likely got moved). Most posters in BF never post in SC, and have an entirely different take on a given subject than those who regularly post in SC. Personally, I appreciate the mods for allowing this, and then moving when it crosses the line.lisa WSCR 594 FB 1023 CBDB 9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boomerdog 0 #45 June 8, 2015 QuoteWhy did I expect a thread with "Camel's toe" in the subject line to rather be in Bonfire..... Actually it should be camel's "nose" not camel's toe. As far as the quip about 10,000 unemployed comedians...taking that one too seriously maybe? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 49 #46 June 8, 2015 Boomerdog Quote Why did I expect a thread with "Camel's toe" in the subject line to rather be in Bonfire..... Actually it should be camel's "nose" not camel's toe. As far as the quip about 10,000 unemployed comedians...taking that one too seriously maybe? Exactly. A "camel's toe" is something completely different, isn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #47 June 8, 2015 oldwomanc6 ******10,000 unemployed comedians and you show up here! Why did I expect a thread with "Camel's toe" in the subject line to rather be in Bonfire.....? Simple answer: the OP wanted to hear what those who post in BF had to say. Sure, the chances are that the thread would get moved eventually into the SC.. but he wanted to see what this group had to say (before it most likely got moved). Most posters in BF never post in SC, and have an entirely different take on a given subject than those who regularly post in SC. Personally, I appreciate the mods for allowing this, and then moving when it crosses the line. Bonfire is such a sewer. The people there have no shame. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boomerdog 0 #48 June 8, 2015 QuoteExactly. A "camel's toe" is something completely different, isn't it? Anatomically? Yes...last time I checked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #49 June 8, 2015 I used some artistic license and adjusted the metaphor to more accurately reflect the topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TriGirl 268 #50 June 8, 2015 oldwomanc6***QuotePalms facing in, chin above the bar. Marine fitness requirement is with the palms-in ? I would have assumed palms-out. You're not going to have a palms-in option when trying to scale a wall or a fence. Don Palms in or out, you can change during the test. No Kip. This is just for the flexed arm hang. Pull-ups are the Marines' choice (and yes, can be changed during the test, as long as the Marine stays on the bar and does not use the vertical supports for help).See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus Shut Up & Jump! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
