Islam...the religion of peace?

[ibx 2]

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now you see i do enjoy our conversation with masterblaster72 because he asked valid questions that are interesting to him and i try my best by answering them.

but what you are writing is not a conversation, its just a bunch of baseless accusations and assumptions that you made by ignoring my previous replies and you somehow expect me to put myself in a defensive position and quote and answer all of that. i don't feel like doing that, sorry.

Stumpy

cheers :)

Yeah, I thought you would react that way. As soon as somebody asks uncomfortable questions believers tend put their hands over their ears and sing LA LA LA...

It was very interesting reading about your perspective... As bewildering as it was.

Cheers.

[wmw999 2,123]

As a non-muslim woman who grew up in more than one western country, I can understand the desire to cover to a certain extent. Hijab wasn't really present where I was, neither were most of the Jewish hair-covering means. If nothing else, they were far less common in the 1960's and 1970's, even within those groups.

Back in the day I was whistled at sometimes, and I found Marseille to be so uncomfortable from all the men approaching me that I left on the next train. I didn't even try Spain or Portugal, even though both languages were fluent, based on others' experiences there, combined with mine in Marseille.

While I would find the niqab to be way over the top, the thought of clothing that automatically said "hand off" would have been kind of nice. In those days, the only outfit that would have occurred to my 22-year-old self would have been to dress like a nun.

However, being a nun defines another set of assumptions and relationships. Just as hijab does. Sometimes they are oppression (just as men wanting their women to dress sexy is the same form of oppression). Sometimes it's choice. But outsiders don't know, only the family, and the woman in question.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ibx 2]

Thanks Wendy. Interesting perspective.

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Sometimes it's choice. But outsiders don't know, only the family, and the woman in question.

That's true, I was talking about the connotations a hijab has in western society and why it's not good for integration.

[Coreeece 2]

Suslique

I wear hijab because I believe in God's words. And yes I enjoy the fact that no one is ogling me.....How many men on this topic wrote "women should decide themselves what to wear and its no mans business"?

I expressed how I respect your practice, especially if it's done out of faith in God. I then provided some scripture about how every man/woman should be fully persuaded in his/her own mind as to whether they choose to practice a certain custom or not.

...but then you also claim that you do it because of men. You said that it gives you a sense of empowerment and frees you from the ogles of man.

IMO, that is not freedom. A more extreme example would be to say that I'm free from the dangers of the world because I keep myself locked up safe in my house as a hermit....or that I'm free from sexual immorality because I chose to become a eunuch.

But whatever...rather then addressing anything that I said, you just dismiss it because of my gender....that's called bulverism - "you're only saying that because you're a man!"

...then Bill comes in and spins his typical racist/sexist twist on it - and then you offered to bring me a sandwich. It's like throwing peas at a wall.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[billvon 2,400]

>The government wants woman to integrate into the society they chose to live in

Then the same should apply to Muslim women living in France and Western women living in Arabic countries.

>Yeah, you're really a strong woman for hiding your hair from men

Here women hide their breasts from men. Women do not "want" to wear bras and shirts, they are forced to do so by their surrounding culture and they are not free to do otherwise. Do you call them weak and spineless as well?

>Yes I am judging you through eyes of my own culture, and I believe I have every
>right to do so.

That's fine. But to avoid hypocrisy, you have to then accept when other people judge western women through the eyes of _their_ culture.

[Suslique 0]

Coreeece

***
I wear hijab because I believe in God's words. And yes I enjoy the fact that no one is ogling me.....How many men on this topic wrote "women should decide themselves what to wear and its no mans business"?

I expressed how I respect your practice, especially if it's done out of faith in God. I then provided some scripture about how every man/woman should be fully persuaded in his/her own mind as to whether they choose to practice a certain custom or not.

...but then you also claim that you do it because of men. You said that it gives you a sense of empowerment and frees you from the ogles of man.

IMO, that is not freedom. A more extreme example would be to say that I'm free from the dangers of the world because I keep myself locked up safe in my house as a hermit....or that I'm free from sexual immorality because I chose to become a eunuch.

But whatever...rather then addressing anything that I said, you just dismiss it because of my gender....that's called bulverism - "you're only saying that because you're a man!"

...then Bill comes in and spins his typical racist/sexist twist on it - and then you offered to bring me a sandwich. It's like throwing peas at a wall.

So you don't want a sandwich? That's OK

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[Coreeece 2]

Fine...BBQ pulled pork - please.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[winsor 186]

Coreeece

Fine...BBQ pulled pork - please.

Traif.

[masterblaster72 0]

Suslique

they won't be forced by religious law, they will be forced by circumstances that government of France creates for these women. some will take off their niqab but some won't, take it as a personal protest.

Hmm. Do you honestly believe these women are forced to stay at home on account of the French laws? Or do you think it is their (or their family's) reactions to those laws? If the latter, then whose problem is this really?

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now Saudi Arabia is not calling itself a democratic country, cradle of democratic values that cherishes all sorts of freedom of its citizens, you know? they are what they are, a monarchy with their own culture and laws. France of the other hand is claiming all of the above but in fact is NO different from Saudi Arabia.

In France, the law says you can't wear a niqab. In SA, you are not allowed to drive if you are a woman. Which country do you prefer to live in? Are you really sure that France is no different from SA?

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the only chance to create an equal opportunities for its citizens it making sure they are not discriminated against their choices of clothes, religion and so on. no the other way around. its not democracy.

Of course it is a democracy -- it just has some laws that are particular to its culture. One law deems the niqab incompatible with its tradition and values. That's for the sovereign state of France to decide, full stop. Just like Switzerland decided in 2010 that minarets are incompatible with its traditions. And just like Saudi Arabia decided miniskirts in public are incompatible with its values.

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France is proud of its democratic european culture, by definition its a "free society where no one is discriminated based on their faith or other lifestyle choices including sexual orientation, clothing etc". what we see it very different from those claims.

This goes back to my point earlier. Being that France is 90% non-Muslim, discrimination is far less likely if a woman *at minimum* shows her face. In other words, be like us, be part of our society, we want you to assimilate and have a chance just like everyone else. Win/win. Hiding behind cloth and showing only your eyes neither gives people in such a society a favorable impression, nor does it give you a fair chance in making a prosperous life in such a society. Or is it that you expect that 90% non-Muslim population to change their negative perception of the niqab? If so, I don't think that's realistic.

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me? i used to buy coffee in a Starbucks in London with a niqabi cashier girl working there. to me personally that was the best example of democratic society. a hipsterish looking guy with awesome haircut making coffee and a niqabi cashier. :)

Yes, I agree that is pretty cool :-)

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[turtlespeed 212]

winsor

***Fine...BBQ pulled pork - please.

Traif.

Haha

I'd like a lamb meatball sub.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Driver1 0]

Coreeece

Fine...BBQ pulled pork, piled high with bacon - please.

FIFY

There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

[SkyDekker 1,123]

I wonder how some will reconcile their feelings about this cop: They would like to applaud his actions, but will want to hate him for being German.

The conundrum life puts you in sometimes....

http://tribune.com.pk/story/888990/police-officer-in-germany-forces-muslim-to-eat-rotten-pork-shares-video-on-whatsapp/

[Suslique 0]

masterblaster72

***

they won't be forced by religious law, they will be forced by circumstances that government of France creates for these women. some will take off their niqab but some won't, take it as a personal protest.

Hmm. Do you honestly believe these women are forced to stay at home on account of the French laws? Or do you think it is their (or their family's) reactions to those laws? If the latter, then whose problem is this really?

Quote

now Saudi Arabia is not calling itself a democratic country, cradle of democratic values that cherishes all sorts of freedom of its citizens, you know? they are what they are, a monarchy with their own culture and laws. France of the other hand is claiming all of the above but in fact is NO different from Saudi Arabia.

In France, the law says you can't wear a niqab. In SA, you are not allowed to drive if you are a woman. Which country do you prefer to live in? Are you really sure that France is no different from SA?

Quote

the only chance to create an equal opportunities for its citizens it making sure they are not discriminated against their choices of clothes, religion and so on. no the other way around. its not democracy.

Of course it is a democracy -- it just has some laws that are particular to its culture. One law deems the niqab incompatible with its tradition and values. That's for the sovereign state of France to decide, full stop. Just like Switzerland decided in 2010 that minarets are incompatible with its traditions. And just like Saudi Arabia decided miniskirts in public are incompatible with its values.

Quote

France is proud of its democratic european culture, by definition its a "free society where no one is discriminated based on their faith or other lifestyle choices including sexual orientation, clothing etc". what we see it very different from those claims.

This goes back to my point earlier. Being that France is 90% non-Muslim, discrimination is far less likely if a woman *at minimum* shows her face. In other words, be like us, be part of our society, we want you to assimilate and have a chance just like everyone else. Win/win. Hiding behind cloth and showing only your eyes neither gives people in such a society a favorable impression, nor does it give you a fair chance in making a prosperous life in such a society. Or is it that you expect that 90% non-Muslim population to change their negative perception of the niqab? If so, I don't think that's realistic.

Quote

me? i used to buy coffee in a Starbucks in London with a niqabi cashier girl working there. to me personally that was the best example of democratic society. a hipsterish looking guy with awesome haircut making coffee and a niqabi cashier. :)

Yes, I agree that is pretty cool :-)

you know i can't speak from niqabi women's perspective because i don't wear one, and i can't speak for muslims living in France since i don't live there either. and i just hate assuming things because its counterproductive :)

me? i don't want to live neither in SA nor in France. since i want to drive and i wear hijab (which also banned in certain places in France). but i sure am planning to pay my visit to Makkah some day and taking silly touristy photo in front of a Eiffel tower is a must you know :) and don't get me started on french cheese...

thank you for a pleasant conversation, btw. it's nice to talk to someone who holds different views yet is open minded enough to respect the opponent.

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[winsor 186]

SkyDekker

I wonder how some will reconcile their feelings about this cop: They would like to applaud his actions, but will want to hate him for being German.

The conundrum life puts you in sometimes....

http://tribune.com.pk/story/888990/police-officer-in-germany-forces-muslim-to-eat-rotten-pork-shares-video-on-whatsapp/

I am very much okay with Germans, but think this guy is a real asshole.

If someone is hoist with their own petard I might find it amusing. If they are being victimized, I do not.

In the same sense that Tailgunner Joe McCarthy did more to engender sympathy for Communists (who were otherwise beneath contempt) than anyone before or after, this guy makes his victims look wonderful by comparison, regardless of how they might stack up absent his tender ministrations.

I might not be a big fan of those he does not like, but I prefer them to him.


BSBD,

Winsor

[masterblaster72 0]

Suslique

thank you for a pleasant conversation, btw. it's nice to talk to someone who holds different views yet is open minded enough to respect the opponent.

Likewise -- thank you too. Keep a thick skin here, especially with the unique perspective you bring to these forums. Hope to see you stick around here for a while.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[DanG 1]

Why do you people think the pork jokes are funny? Are you 12?

- Dan G

[Coreeece 2]

Well, what do you expect? We're just sexist pigs that ogle at women and expect them to serve us sandwiches - wtf do we know, eh?

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Suslique 0]

thank you Wendy for your perspective

'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?'
'That is the only time a man can be brave.'
George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[DanG 1]

Quote

Well, what do you expect? We're just sexist pigs that ogle at women and expect them to serve us sandwiches - wtf do we know, eh?

For someone who claims to respect a person's religious dogma if it is sincerely held believe derived from God, you sure find it easy to insult the same dogma.

Hypocrite much?

- Dan G

[Bolas 5]

DanG

Quote

Well, what do you expect? We're just sexist pigs that ogle at women and expect them to serve us sandwiches - wtf do we know, eh?

For someone who claims to respect a person's religious dogma if it is sincerely held believe derived from God, you sure find it easy to insult the same dogma.

Hypocrite much?

But, but but, hers is derived from Allah...

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[winsor 186]

Bolas

***

Quote

Well, what do you expect? We're just sexist pigs that ogle at women and expect them to serve us sandwiches - wtf do we know, eh?

For someone who claims to respect a person's religious dogma if it is sincerely held believe derived from God, you sure find it easy to insult the same dogma.

Hypocrite much?

But, but but, hers is derived from Allah...

Which, in Arabic, means 'the God' (masculine). Its transliteration is more properly 'al Lah.'

The female counterpart of al La -, banished by the misogynist psychopath who founded the whole thing - was 'al Lat.'

As an aside, it is a truly insecure guy who puts so much stock in virginity, and the ism he founded is apparently appealing to those of his y'lk.

If you're a total dud in bed, find yourself a virgin and convince her that the female orgasm is a myth. Yeah, that's the ticket...


BSBD,

Winsor

[Coreeece 2]

DanG

Quote

Well, what do you expect? We're just sexist pigs that ogle at women and expect them to serve us sandwiches - wtf do we know, eh?

For someone who claims to respect a person's religious dogma if it is sincerely held believe derived from God, you sure find it easy to insult the same dogma.

Hypocrite much?

I thought her last "sandwich" comment was rather funny and well played...I felt obliged to respond in kind with my own tongue-in-cheek jesting - c'mon man, she walked right into that one.

Personally it's really becoming quite the buzz-kill having to explain everything to the liberal hypersensitive types looking to pick a fight.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[winsor 186]

Coreeece

***

Quote

Well, what do you expect? We're just sexist pigs that ogle at women and expect them to serve us sandwiches - wtf do we know, eh?

For someone who claims to respect a person's religious dogma if it is sincerely held believe derived from God, you sure find it easy to insult the same dogma.

Hypocrite much?

I thought her last "sandwich" comment was rather funny and well played...I felt obliged to respond in kind with my own tongue-in-cheek jesting - c'mon man, she walked right into that one.

Personally it's really becoming quite the buzz-kill having to explain everything to the liberal hypersensitive types looking to pick a fight.

I greatly prefer Offspring's version of 'Feelings' to that of Morris Albert.

[DanG 1]

Quote

Personally it's really becoming quite the buzz-kill having to explain everything to the liberal hypersensitive types looking to pick a fight.

I'll remember that next time you get all butthurt over someone insulting your silly religion.

- Dan G

[normiss 622]

Morris Day and The Time, Jungle Love.
More entertaining and plenty of rock guitar.