Another good editorial on dialog

[rushmc 18]

grimmie

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2013/09/19/u-s-has-more-guns-and-gun-deaths-than-any-other-country-study-finds/

Not what is being debated

No one is saying this is not true
What is true is gun ownership has been increasing at a fast pace in the last decade
Yet gun deaths have been declining as have mass shootings

So, this implies that the number of guns and gun ownership has little to do with the level of violence

And of course, this still does not show an empedemic of white cops killing unarmed blacks

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,155]

Quote

I am not the only one saying that. I may be the only one saying it here however.

followed by:

Quote

To show me all these incidents where white cops are killing unarmed blacks regularly
If you are correct it should be easy to do

Anyways, I do think the US has a violence problem. I do believe that the ready availability of guns plays a large role in this. However, I don't think there really is a solution, or at least not a solution that would not take more than a decade or two.

This is the society the founding father's started, though I highly doubt intended.

On top of the violent nature of your society, there is a race issue. As in racism is still very muc alive. You can see how blatant it is here on the forums.

I know you and I will not agree on any of this.

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

Quote

I am not the only one saying that. I may be the only one saying it here however.

followed by:

***To show me all these incidents where white cops are killing unarmed blacks regularly
If you are correct it should be easy to do

Anyways, I do think the US has a violence problem. I do believe that the ready availability of guns plays a large role in this. However, I don't think there really is a solution, or at least not a solution that would not take more than a decade or two.

This is the society the founding father's started, though I highly doubt intended.

On top of the violent nature of your society, there is a race issue. As in racism is still very muc alive. You can see how blatant it is here on the forums.

I know you and I will not agree on any of this.

Two fails on your part
If you would care to read the Federalist Papers you would know your firest comment is wrong

Second
Race is and always will be an issue BUT, it is not a pandemic as you and others would have us beleive

You cant show the incidents

Viloence is a symptom
What you are failing to identify is the root cause
That root cause is lack of hope and a constantly reinforced mind set of being the victim
This mind set is a major part of the problem
The oh I have no chance because I am "_________"

You fill in the blank


It is sad
What is even more sad is you support the very thing thats keeps people from even trying to suceed

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

And here is what the inflamitory hate speech (which you seem to support) is getting us
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/30/report-gun-deaths-officers-jump-56-percent/

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[BIGUN 1,109]

normiss

Car regulation is by far more strict than gun ownership.

However, cars are a privilege; whereas, gun ownership is a right. Big difference. Hence, so many States going to constitutional carry.

Quote

We would be well served to require secure storage of weapons with severe penalties when a stolen weapon is used in a crime.

Agreed. With rights comes responsibility.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[SkyDekker 1,155]

Like I said, you and I will not agree. Specially when you keep asking me for evidence of a claim I am not making. A claim you have said is only made by you on these boards.

But I am sure it simplifies things for you when you can just say: "I blame democrats".

Don't worry, I won't take your toy away.

Quote

Viloence is a symptom
What you are failing to identify is the root cause
That root cause is lack of hope and a constantly reinforced mind set of being the victim
This mind set is a major part of the problem
The oh I have no chance because I am "_________"

Then socialist Canada and communist Europe are performing much better, since violence is significantly lower and has been lowering in lockstep with the US.

If socialism and welfare breeds violence, why isn't Canada and Europe more violent than the US?

[lawrocket 3]

One key matter to dialog that is missing lately is a thick skin. Another is what I see as the system where discussion is cut off by deflection to other things. We cannot carry on a serious discussion about guns because it becomes dominated by allegations of motivation. Or anything regarding race. i.e., supporting police means you are racist.

Actual discussion is cut off completely because it moves to a side point,

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[normiss 644]

Yessir.

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

Like I said, you and I will not agree. Specially when you keep asking me for evidence of a claim I am not making. A claim you have said is only made by you on these boards.

But I am sure it simplifies things for you when you can just say: "I blame democrats".

Don't worry, I won't take your toy away.

Quote

Viloence is a symptom
What you are failing to identify is the root cause
That root cause is lack of hope and a constantly reinforced mind set of being the victim
This mind set is a major part of the problem
The oh I have no chance because I am "_________"

Then socialist Canada and communist Europe are performing much better, since violence is significantly lower and has been lowering in lockstep with the US.

If socialism and welfare breeds violence, why isn't Canada and Europe more violent than the US?

Hmmm
9 dead in Edmonton this morning?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,178]

Better isn't the same as perfect. And do you think the. That each house should have more than one gun, just in case of a situation like this?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 18]

wmw999

Better isn't the same as perfect. And do you think the. That each house should have more than one gun, just in case of a situation like this?

Wendy P.

???

Not sure what you are asking or the point you are trying to make

We will never see or have perfect
guns are a personal choice
The one used in Edmonton was a stolen 9MM

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[BIGUN 1,109]

wmw999

Better isn't the same as perfect. And do you think the. That each house should have more than one gun, just in case of a situation like this?

Wendy P.

Personally, I think each house has the right to own as many or as little guns as they choose.

I also believe they had better have some weapons training and a solid storage area.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[billvon 2,476]

>>Does the gooberment inspect your weapons every year?
>no, neither does it my car

Most states require some form of inspection regularly. You may live in a state that does not require it.

>>Does the gooberment require you to insure your weapons?
>car insurance is liability insurance. I do not have to insure my car but rather
>the impact of what I may do with it so this is a straw man

No, the same would be true of guns. You would not have to insure your weapons, but rather insure against what you do with them. (You can, of course, buy theft or damage insurance for each if you choose.)

>>Does the gooberment require you to take a test to obtain a weapon to operate your
>>weapons?

>I have to train to get a permit to carry. I have to go through a back ground check to
>get a car?

Yes. Your background is checked when you apply for a car registration and insurance, primarily to ensure you have a license and have not had it revoked.

[SkyDekker 1,155]

rushmc

***Like I said, you and I will not agree. Specially when you keep asking me for evidence of a claim I am not making. A claim you have said is only made by you on these boards.

But I am sure it simplifies things for you when you can just say: "I blame democrats".

Don't worry, I won't take your toy away.

Quote

Viloence is a symptom
What you are failing to identify is the root cause
That root cause is lack of hope and a constantly reinforced mind set of being the victim
This mind set is a major part of the problem
The oh I have no chance because I am "_________"

Then socialist Canada and communist Europe are performing much better, since violence is significantly lower and has been lowering in lockstep with the US.

If socialism and welfare breeds violence, why isn't Canada and Europe more violent than the US?

Hmmm
9 dead in Edmonton this morning?

9 Dead in Edmonton is a national tragedy.

9 Dead in many US cities may not even make it on the national news.

Now that little diversion you tried is handled. Care to respond to the point?

[turtlespeed 212]

SkyDekker

******Like I said, you and I will not agree. Specially when you keep asking me for evidence of a claim I am not making. A claim you have said is only made by you on these boards.

But I am sure it simplifies things for you when you can just say: "I blame democrats".

Don't worry, I won't take your toy away.

Quote

Viloence is a symptom
What you are failing to identify is the root cause
That root cause is lack of hope and a constantly reinforced mind set of being the victim
This mind set is a major part of the problem
The oh I have no chance because I am "_________"

Then socialist Canada and communist Europe are performing much better, since violence is significantly lower and has been lowering in lockstep with the US.

If socialism and welfare breeds violence, why isn't Canada and Europe more violent than the US?

Hmmm
9 dead in Edmonton this morning?

9 Dead in Edmonton is a national tragedy.

9 Dead in many US cities may not even make it on the national news.

Now that little diversion you tried is handled. Care to respond to the point?

That's bullshit and you know it.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,155]

With 9 probably. But 4 or 5 in a day is a pretty frequent occurance in one city and doesn't make the national news. 4 or 5 murders in one city in Canada would make the national news, every single time.

Regardless, it was a diversion from Rush. Still waiting on him to address the question. Unless you want to take up his defence?

[rushmc 18]

SkyDekker

With 9 probably. But 4 or 5 in a day is a pretty frequent occurance in one city and doesn't make the national news. 4 or 5 murders in one city in Canada would make the national news, every single time.

Regardless, it was a diversion from Rush. Still waiting on him to address the question. Unless you want to take up his defence?

You frame a question not worth asking
Reframe it if you want an answer

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Boomerdog 0]

OK…we can agree that gun violence i.e. the use of a firearm in the commission of a crime is unacceptable. I would also hope we can agree that self defense with a firearm is not gun violence but a direct response and proportional application of deadly force to preserve innocent life and stop a criminal act using a gun.

I won’t write a dissertation on how the Founders saw the role of government in context to an armed citizenry. I will assume you’ve heard all of that before.

What I would differentiate, however are the means by which political freedom and liberty have some modicum of a chance of being maintained. The possessions you cite have little if any bearing upon such freedoms. We can agree that they ensure upward mobility and a better standard of living but political freedom, liberty and human rights are not dependent upon these things. When the ballot box and the soap box fail, the cartridge box is the last resort and I think we can agree that none of us want to see this country turned into a free fire zone. However, deterrence works and a RESPONSIBLE armed citizenry is I would submit, the very difference between being a governed people versus being a ruled people.

Now one might think that with 300 million firearms in the possession of 80 million Americans, we would be shooting each other to pieces at a much higher rate and magnitude than what we see every day and we can agree that what we see every day is abhorrent. But such high levels of potential violence based upon such private ownership data is just not the case. Let us also remember that the greatest violence perpetrated on human beings came at the hands of governments particularly in the 20th Century where the Nazi’s, Soviets, and the PRC have the blood of over 150 million souls on their hands (most were unarmed). I am also sure that someone else will chime in with a reply about Americans doing some of the same; Wounded Knee comes to mind. Speaking only for myself, I like what we have here. Perfect by no means but liberty and freedom both have their price along with the responsibility and vigilance in order to be secured and maintained.

Finally, I'm sure we disagree on many points here, but I've not called you any nasty names or stridently criticized your position or the position of anyone else here either.

It is possible even though I too at times have thrown some pretty big verbal rocks around these boards, to have a constructive discussion which I hope I've offered.

My 25 cents and a cup of coffee’s worth.

[SkyDekker 1,155]

rushmc

***With 9 probably. But 4 or 5 in a day is a pretty frequent occurance in one city and doesn't make the national news. 4 or 5 murders in one city in Canada would make the national news, every single time.

Regardless, it was a diversion from Rush. Still waiting on him to address the question. Unless you want to take up his defence?

You frame a question not worth asking
Reframe it if you want an answer

LMAO.

Good one Rush.

[wmw999 2,178]

This is discussion. Thanks. I'm wondering if the time for individuals' use of guns to protect their freedom from the government has passed, but I'm not sure. There are a lot of industrialized democracies in Europe who seem to mostly consider themselves to be free.

I'm still a little uncomfortable with the thought of the Newtown massacre as collateral damage. A gun makes it so much easier for someone to make a big impact with their wackoness. With a knife they have to actually get close and maybe touch people.

Note I'm not in the ban-guns camp. But I am uncomfortable with what I think we get in exchange for those lives.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Stumpy 256]

SkyDekker

******With 9 probably. But 4 or 5 in a day is a pretty frequent occurance in one city and doesn't make the national news. 4 or 5 murders in one city in Canada would make the national news, every single time.

Regardless, it was a diversion from Rush. Still waiting on him to address the question. Unless you want to take up his defence?

You framed a question I don't want to answer because I'm spinning.
Reframe it to give me something easier that I can BS on.

LMAO.

Good one Rush.

FIFY (Kind of )

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Boomerdog 0]

A half more cup of coffee's worth...and I will conclude.

First, we can agree that times have changed from the founding of the country to today. The Founding Fathers understood such changes would take place over time and provided remedies for amendment to such changes. We can read all of this in the Federalist Papers. One thing the Founders knew would never change is human nature. We are all capable of great compassion and wisdom; we are also capable of evil and inflicting misery on each other. Those things have not changed over time and the historical record is the testament. This I think creates for the unfortunate fact that human beings must at times defend their lives against other human predators be it street muggers or political despots.

Second, what you consider collateral damage I consider criminal action/offenses. Thousands upon thousands of local, state, and federal regulations pertaining to the control and use of firearms could not and did not prevent Sandy Hook and other criminal atrocities that invade our homes via the media we access. Given this, are we writing and enacting bad law(s) or are we failing to enforce those laws for a myriad of excuses that have invaded the social zeitgeist and enable a criminal to choose to "cross that line?"

Finally, those of us who are passionate about the Second Amendment get labeled anti-governement gun nuts etc etc. Nothing, absolutely nothing could be further from the truth. Yes there are some fringe crazies out there on this side of the fence as well as the other side of the fence, but let us not major in minors. My view of government is best put forth in Federalist #51:

Quote

"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions."

I humbly submit those words resonate through time even though written over 200 years ago and formulate the basis of our freedom and our republic...assuming we can keep it!

And hopefully this weekend, most of us will be able to jump!