Religion and Government

[RonD1120 58]

This is a very good explanation government's need for religious teaching. It's only 0:01:39 long.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/YjntXYDPw44

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[GD64 1]

Ron....you are a smart guy, however, I was troubled by your vid choice to link government and religion. I'm not going to address the religion part (which I know was your point). I'm personally" a live and let live type of guy", as long as you are doing no harm to others from a religion perspective.

What bothered me was the esteemed Harvard professor kept referring to USA government as a democracy. If it was some computer hack who butchers the English language such as myself, I would have shrugged my shoulders and moved on. Instead a highly educated man is using democracy multiple times.....no accident?

This is a problem (not just Harvard). Ron I'm sure you know democracy is government of the masses (mob rule). A republic is representative rule (which we are supposed to have). It could certainly be argued we have "strayed". I truly despise 98% of politician's (at all levels of government), but that's a whole different thread.

When asked of Benjamin Franklin what kind of government the founders created "A Republic if you can keep it."

[RonD1120 58]

Excellent observation, I admit I did not catch the significant difference.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[christelsabine 1]

RonD1120

Excellent observation, I admit I did not catch the significant difference.

And that coming from a professionally highly trained observer!

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[RonD1120 58]

Yes, I've been under the yoke of bondage by our democratic government for so long I lost sight of the fact that we need to return to our original republican form of government.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[christelsabine 1]

Since you are a pensioner since a long time, I don't think that you are important enough for any government to *suppress/deal with* you. Your pension is paid, that's it.

Seems to be your problem, though.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Andy9o8 0]

RonD1120

This is a very good explanation government's need for religious teaching. It's only 0:01:39 long.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/YjntXYDPw44

It's bullshit. While I agree with the premise that "democracy" (as a generic term, even if in the form of a republic, etc.) works principally because citizens, for the most part, obey the law by choice, the speaker promotes the fallacious premise that presumes that the only (or at least the best) valid dynamic that drives voluntarily ethical behavior in the social compact must be taught and driven by religious belief.

For an alternate perspective, people should educate themselves on, for one example, Secular Humanism.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

What bothered me was the esteemed Harvard professor kept referring to USA government as a democracy. If it was some computer hack who butchers the English language such as myself, I would have shrugged my shoulders and moved on. Instead a highly educated man is using democracy multiple times.....no accident?

Meh. I have a degree in political science and government, and have taught and practiced constitutional law for 30 years, and it doesn't bother me. And I often use the term "democracy" the same way The fact that it's technically imprecise is usually irrelevant to the context of common parlance. "Democracy" is a popularly-accepted generic term which encompasses not just "pure democracy" but also the (more or less) "democratically-elected" governments found in North America, the UK, Western Europe, etc.

The fact that technically they're actually republics with citizen-elected governments of executives and legislatures, or citizen-elected parliamentary governments, or constitutional monarchies where the real power resides with the citizen-elected civil government is irrelevant to the vernacular usage. You live in the US, the UK, France, Canada, Australia, Germany, Italy, Japan? Your government is elected by and answerable to The People, who are free to openly dissent and speak their minds? Then, usually, it really is ok to say that you live in a democracy.

[GD64 1]

[tonyhays 86]

What an absolute load of shit. Essentially implying without religion we have no morals.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[RonD1120 58]

So I gather from your perspective, morality is determined by the basic fear of being caught, that is the law.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[tonyhays 86]

You gather incorrectly. Mankind has the ability to determine right from wrong without religion.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[RonD1120 58]

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was asking what you thought determined morality. Do you believe it is the basic innate fear of being caught?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[The111 0]

Morality is determined by fear of the law, and the law is determined by morality. Round and round we go. Excellent circular logic.

Non-circular version, for those who didn't figure this out shortly after learning to speak:

Logic determines morality determines the law.

That many magical books contain similar morals as dictated by logic, does not really mean anything.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[The111 0]

RonD1120

Do you believe it is the basic innate fear of being caught?

The biggest irony here is that the video in the OP promotes this idea. The video purported that religious people choose to obey the law because they are "accountable to god." What this literally means is that they are afraid they will have to pay (settle the account) if they don't follow the law. And settling your account with god is presumably much more difficult than settling your account with city hall.

This is IMO a very weak reason to do the right thing. Do it because you know it to be right, not because you feel accountable for it.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[SmokeJumper 0]

RonD1120

...Do you believe it is the basic innate fear of being caught?

WTH (pun intended) is with the Bible Thumper's fear of being caught?
Caught by who?
Morality is not determined by the law; the law is determined by morality, quite apart from religion.

[Croc 0]

One could argue that religion serves those who have an innate fear of going to hell.

Is that true?

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Croc

One could argue that religion serves those who have an innate fear of going to hell.

Is that true?

It also serves those who have an inability to accept that death is the end.

They need that hope of an afterlife.

And for Ron's question about morality being driven by the fear of being caught:

For some people, yes. Absolutely. Psychopaths & Sociopaths have little or no empathy and are willing to hurt and kill others with no remorse. And while 'full blown' psychos & socios are actually pretty rare, there are varying levels (called "AntiSocial Personality Disorder) and it turns out that low or moderate level psychos are pretty common among repeat offenders in the criminal justice system.

And there are some non-psychos out there who are just selfish. Self centered. While they may feel empathy towards those they hurt, they can justify it by rationalizing that their needs are more important.

For both those groups, fear of being caught is important to keep them in check.
Fear of human authority (cops & courts) is one thing, but fear of God is more effective.

Throughout history, societies have used that authoritative "God" to keep individual selfishness in check for the greater needs of the gourp.
That invisible, omniscient, omnipresent authority figure is both effective and immune to danger.

A cop (or other human authority figure) is vulnerable. Piss off enough of society, and society will push back. Or extreme elements of it (like we are seeing now).

But how can you fight against God? And how can you resist penalties that are imposed after death (or argue that they don't happen?)

That's one of the reasons that so many people believe in God. It's part of our evolution.

However, altruism is also part of our makeup. Again, probably due to evolution.
And it shows up in other animal societies too.

Some people do the right thing because they want to.
Because they feel better when they do it.
And they feel remorseful and regretful and "bad" when they do "bad" things.

I don't know if that's "Nature" or "Nurture," if it's built into their psyche or learned behavior.

But those people don't need the fear of punishment to do the right thing and not do the wrong thing.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Backintothesky 0]

More terrifying are the Christians that claim that without God they would have no morality.

If the only thing holding them back from acts of unspeakable cruelty is their belief in an invisible sky fairy then I don't want to be around them.

The111

***Do you believe it is the basic innate fear of being caught?

The biggest irony here is that the video in the OP promotes this idea. The video purported that religious people choose to obey the law because they are "accountable to god." What this literally means is that they are afraid they will have to pay (settle the account) if they don't follow the law. And settling your account with god is presumably much more difficult than settling your account with city hall.

This is IMO a very weak reason to do the right thing. Do it because you know it to be right, not because you feel accountable for it.

[Stumpy 256]

RonD1120

This is a very good explanation government's need for religious teaching. It's only 0:01:39 long.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/YjntXYDPw44

Usually your trolls are at least slightly subtle. This one? Not so much.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[tkhayes 126]

It does not matter what he thinks 'determines' morality or how it can exist without religion, no more than it matters whether or not someone can 'determine' why DNA exists. it exists, we know that.

the fact is that good behavior and bad behavior has and always will exist REGARDLESS of the input of religion or many other factors- whatever.

One of the absolutely false premises of religion is somehow that they have the high ground on morality when the black crime blotters are filled with accusations, convictions, lawsuits and such coming from religious people and religious organizations. they have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with each other and any inference to the connection is therefore also incorrect.

http://ffrf.org/faq/feeds/item/16934-black-collar-crimes

FFRF publishes two full newspaper pages every month in their newsletter. dozens of them, two full, fine-print pages of crimes, lawsuits, allegations, arrests of religious people for 'acts of immorality'. Fraud, rape, assault, theft, child molestation, etc.

so much for religion and morals.

Morals exist for a lot of reason. they also change over time. it used to be moral to burn witches. It was not moral for gay people to marry, nor women to vote.

every culture has their own standards, every family and every person for that matter. Society as a whole has the ability to set their own standards and change them as time changes.

Religion is pretty good at continuing to return to this notion that somehow they are morally correct, when in fact people all over the world are murdered/raped/tortured/beaten/persecuted every day by religious folks who believe that they are also morally correct in doing just what they do.

rubbish.

[kallend 1,623]

Atheist Ten Commandments seem like a pretty good set of rules:

1. Be open-minded and be willing to alter your beliefs with new evidence.
2. Strive to understand what is most likely to be true, not to believe what you wish to be true.
3. The scientific method is the most reliable way of understanding the natural world.
4. Every person has the right to control over their body.
5. God is not necessary to be a good person or to live a full and meaningful life.
6. Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognize that you must take responsibility for them.
7. Treat others as you would want them to treat you, and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. Think about their perspective.
8. We have the responsibility to consider others, including future generations.
9. There is no one right way to live.
10. Leave the world a better place than you found it.

www.inquisitr.com/1692212/atheists-rewrite-ten-commandments-mythbusters-adam-savage-judged-new-commands/#OrHAwbqjFD6IxR1y.99

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[freethefly 6]

RonD1120

So I gather from your perspective, morality is determined by the basic fear of being caught, that is the law.

So, we can assume, from your perspective, morality is determined by the basic fear of going to Hell. That is religion.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[tkhayes 126]

^^ Good one, I will surely use that!!

[RonD1120 58]

That has merit and seems an applicable assumption. I know I definitely fear spending eternity in hell. However, I am skeptical of religion.

Religion is man's attempt to reach God. Jesus Christ is God's attempt to reach lost mankind.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.