Supreme Court Allows Employers to Discriminate Against Employees by Denying Contraception Coverage

[DanG 1]

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Andy's ears just perked up...

No, she said "good lawyer"

- Dan G

[Andy9o8 0]

Hobby Lobby's hypocrisy: its retirement plan invests in contraception products and drugs used in abortion.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/hobby-lobby-retirement-plan-invested-emergency-contraception-and-abortion-drug-makers

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Documents filed with the Department of Labor and dated December 2012—three months after the company's owners filed their lawsuit—show that the Hobby Lobby 401(k) employee retirement plan held more than $73 million in mutual funds with investments in companies that produce emergency contraceptive pills, intrauterine devices, and drugs commonly used in abortions. Hobby Lobby makes large matching contributions to this company-sponsored 401(k).

Several of the mutual funds in Hobby Lobby's retirement plan have stock holdings in companies that manufacture the specific drugs and devices that the Green family, which owns Hobby Lobby, is fighting to keep out of Hobby Lobby's health care policies: the emergency contraceptive pills Plan B and Ella, and copper and hormonal intrauterine devices.

[rushmc 18]

Andy9o8

Hobby Lobby's hypocrisy: its retirement plan invests in contraception products and drugs used in abortion.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/hobby-lobby-retirement-plan-invested-emergency-contraception-and-abortion-drug-makers

Quote

Documents filed with the Department of Labor and dated December 2012—three months after the company's owners filed their lawsuit—show that the Hobby Lobby 401(k) employee retirement plan held more than $73 million in mutual funds with investments in companies that produce emergency contraceptive pills, intrauterine devices, and drugs commonly used in abortions. Hobby Lobby makes large matching contributions to this company-sponsored 401(k).

Several of the mutual funds in Hobby Lobby's retirement plan have stock holdings in companies that manufacture the specific drugs and devices that the Green family, which owns Hobby Lobby, is fighting to keep out of Hobby Lobby's health care policies: the emergency contraceptive pills Plan B and Ella, and copper and hormonal intrauterine devices.

Old news
kallend beat you to it months ago.......

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[champu 1]

Apparently I'm talking to Newsbusters now...

Newsbusters

Lie #3: Now any employer can claim religious objections to healthcare provisions in their plans

From the decision...

Alito

HHS argues that the connection between what the objecting parties must do and the end that they find to be morally wrong is too attenuated because it is the employee who will choose the coverage and contraceptive method she uses. But RFRA’s question is whether the mandate imposes a substantial burden on the objecting parties’ ability to conduct business in accordance with their religious beliefs.

The belief of the Hahns and Greens implicates a difficult and important question of religion and moral philosophy, namely, the circumstances under which it is immoral for a person to perform an act that is innocent in itself but that has the effect of enabling or facilitating the commission of an immoral act by another. It is not for the Court to say that the religious beliefs of the plaintiffs are mistaken or unreasonable. In fact, this Court considered and rejected a nearly identical argument in Thomas v. Review Bd. of Indiana Employment Security Div., 450 U. S. 707.

The Court’s “narrow function . . . is to determine” whether the plaintiffs’ asserted religious belief reflects “an honest conviction,” id., at 716, and there is no dispute here that it does.

The problem here is that it permits a person, and now a company, to define "an act that is innocent in itself but that has the effect of enabling or facilitating the commission of an immoral act" as they see fit so long as the court determines it's an honest conviction. Alito doesn't "address" this, he completely shrugs it off...

Alito

This decision concerns only the contraceptive mandate and should not be understood to hold that all insurance-coverage mandates, e.g., for vaccinations or blood transfusions, must necessarily fall if they conflict with an employer’s religious beliefs.

...but every argument he makes could equally be applied to that case, so the above statement is hollow.

I'm not that worked up about what this ruling specifically did. In fact, this is basically the hypothetical I said would be workable at the expense of reflecting negatively on the true religious convictions of the employer. My problem is with the statements made on the way to the ruling.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Old news
kallend beat you to it months ago.......

oh, sorry.

[billvon 2,400]

>HC is not a right

Unlike Viagra, which apparently is a right (and is covered)

[rushmc 18]

billvon

>HC is not a right

Unlike Viagra, which apparently is a right (and is covered)

Looking to get a rise out of this one?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Southern_Man 0]

billvon

>HC is not a right

Unlike Viagra, which apparently is a right (and is covered)

I wish people would quit using this example. Viagara and other ED drugs are often covered but not all insurance companies cover them and coverage is not mandatory under the ACA. It is really a poor argument.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[rushmc 18]

Southern_Man

***>HC is not a right

Unlike Viagra, which apparently is a right (and is covered)

I wish people would quit using this example. Viagara and other ED drugs are often covered but not all insurance companies cover them and coverage is not mandatory under the ACA. It is really a poor argument.

and even if he was correct, I would be against it as well
Penis pumps however, are covered (I think)
Not behind this one either

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kelpdiver 2]

Andy9o8

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Old news
kallend beat you to it months ago.......

oh, sorry.

more importantly, it was an example of financial ignorance or outright lying by Mother Jones, and a huge wallop of exaggeration. 73M in index funds that include companies like Pfizer doesn't really have the same ring, does it?

[Andy9o8 0]

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a huge wallop of exaggeration.

[quade 3]

Andy9o8

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a huge wallop of exaggeration.

It is literally the most hyperbolic statement ever!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

ibx

To me, an employer being privy too how you use your health care package is as intrusive as them being privy to how you spend your income.

If they can say they don't want their compensation package (health care) to be used on contraception why can't they say they don't want their compensation package (cash) to be used on contraception either?

Knowing the court, one can't be surprised, but it still defies logic. But frankly I suspect this will be a short lived artifact and in 20 years will be seen as a bit of mild insanity as corps quickly see the competitive disadvantage of being pricks.

Obama/Congress can help this along by forcing up front disclosures. If you choose to invoke religious beliefs to curtain medical access, you should be compelled to clearly state this in your hiring ads and initial contacts with applicants. This transparency is essential up front while the balance of power is still fairly equal. Once the consideration process has begun, it is disadvantageous for a candidate to ask about benefits or vacation time without seeming self interested. So the end result is you don't find out until it's too late, and now you have to weigh employment against any principles of fairness.

Now surely the right wouldn't object to such open disclosure, would it? They're not ashamed of their convictions, are they?

[kallend 1,623]

rushmc

Wendy
HC is not a right

Really? The USA is a signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ryoder 1,384]

From Riddler's FB page.

http://www.atlbanana.com/supreme-court-upholds-little-caesars-right-to-feed-christian-employees-to-lions/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Amazon 7]

kelpdiver

***
To me, an employer being privy too how you use your health care package is as intrusive as them being privy to how you spend your income.

If they can say they don't want their compensation package (health care) to be used on contraception why can't they say they don't want their compensation package (cash) to be used on contraception either?

Knowing the court, one can't be surprised, but it still defies logic. But frankly I suspect this will be a short lived artifact and in 20 years will be seen as a bit of mild insanity as corps quickly see the competitive disadvantage of being pricks.

Obama/Congress can help this along by forcing up front disclosures. If you choose to invoke religious beliefs to curtain medical access, you should be compelled to clearly state this in your hiring ads and initial contacts with applicants. This transparency is essential up front while the balance of power is still fairly equal. Once the consideration process has begun, it is disadvantageous for a candidate to ask about benefits or vacation time without seeming self interested. So the end result is you don't find out until it's too late, and now you have to weigh employment against any principles of fairness.

Now surely the right wouldn't object to such open disclosure, would it? They're not ashamed of their convictions, are they?

Non Southern Baptists need not apply..... yeah no Christians persecuting other beliefs there at all.

[Coreece 190]

Andy9o8

Hobby Lobby's hypocrisy: its retirement plan invests in contraception products and drugs used in abortion.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/hobby-lobby-retirement-plan-invested-emergency-contraception-and-abortion-drug-makers

Quote

Documents filed with the Department of Labor and dated December 2012—three months after the company's owners filed their lawsuit—show that the Hobby Lobby 401(k) employee retirement plan held more than $73 million in mutual funds with investments in companies that produce emergency contraceptive pills, intrauterine devices, and drugs commonly used in abortions. Hobby Lobby makes large matching contributions to this company-sponsored 401(k).

Several of the mutual funds in Hobby Lobby's retirement plan have stock holdings in companies that manufacture the specific drugs and devices that the Green family, which owns Hobby Lobby, is fighting to keep out of Hobby Lobby's health care policies: the emergency contraceptive pills Plan B and Ella, and copper and hormonal intrauterine devices.

If one is going to make a claim that something is against their religious beliefs, shouldn't they have to argue their case and prove it rather than just stating it?

It's highly unlikely that Christians can use biblical references to condemn the use of contraception...it's just not there.

There are references however that could be used to support the idea of sexual pleasure without the intent of reproduction:

Proverbs 5:18-19
Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe.
Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love.

Song of Solomon 1:2,4,13
Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine....Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers... A bundle of myrrh is my well-beloved unto me; he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts.

1 Corinthians 7:8-9
To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

1 Corinthians 7:3
The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[tkhayes 126]

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This wasn't about contraception.

It was about standing up to an intrusive, bullying, out-of-control government.

You think this was weird, wait until fall when Obama goes completely rogue and starts writing his own laws to 'fix the immigration system without Congress.'

Except that there is no evidence that the govt is bullying or out of control (not in the realm of healthcare) and there is also no evidence that the President has ever, or intends to write his own laws.

Nice right wing rant, and due to the real disconnect with reality, demonstrates clearly a large part of what is wrong with this country - a disconnect from reality followed by a flawed belief structure. Both a sure way to never solve problems that we have, just blame others.

Having said all that, the ruling was and is quote narrow, only applies to closely held corporations, only applies to specific birth control and does not apply to JW's stopping blood transfusions etc.

But when the JW's or anyone else now goes to the SCOTUS with 'their' beliefs and religious demands, a precedent has been set that their albeit narrow claims might be honored by said SCOTUS.

That is disturbing, and can definitely turn into a slippery slope.

If your religious beliefs tell you that slavery or sodomizing children is OK, and that God tells you this, and you hold these beliefs all your life, and they are closely held beliefs, then you are entitled to have those beliefs since this is a free country.

When you come to us to write public policy that encompasses those beliefs, we will most likely tell you to fuck off and go away.

[Amazon 7]

tkhayes

Quote

This wasn't about contraception.

It was about standing up to an intrusive, bullying, out-of-control government.

You think this was weird, wait until fall when Obama goes completely rogue and starts writing his own laws to 'fix the immigration system without Congress.'

When you come to us to write public policy that encompasses those beliefs, we will most likely tell you to fuck off and go away.

I have a closely held belief that Elizabeth Warren might like this unintended consequence that the Supreme Tools have brought to the public discourse in America.

[Remster 24]

ryoder

From Riddler's FB page.

http://www.atlbanana.com/supreme-court-upholds-little-caesars-right-to-feed-christian-employees-to-lions/

The slipery slope has been laid out, and it's taking effect:

http://www.moonmontchronicle.com/supreme-court-rules-jcpenney-allowed-to-sacrifice-employees-to-appease-cthulhu.html

http://dailycurrant.com/2014/07/01/hobby-lobby-stones-gay-employee-to-death/

Remster

[rhaig 0]

Remster

http://www.moonmontchronicle.com/supreme-court-rules-jcpenney-allowed-to-sacrifice-employees-to-appease-cthulhu.html

Don't fuck with the old ones.

--
Rob

[Amazon 7]

Remster

***From Riddler's FB page.

http://www.atlbanana.com/supreme-court-upholds-little-caesars-right-to-feed-christian-employees-to-lions/

The slipery slope has been laid out, and it's taking effect:

http://www.moonmontchronicle.com/supreme-court-rules-jcpenney-allowed-to-sacrifice-employees-to-appease-cthulhu.html

http://dailycurrant.com/2014/07/01/hobby-lobby-stones-gay-employee-to-death/

Well as long as it is a closely held belief and its in the bible.... maybe Hobby Lobby can show up at the next local Gay Parade and stone people there too.

[champu 1]

Remster

***From Riddler's FB page.

http://www.atlbanana.com/supreme-court-upholds-little-caesars-right-to-feed-christian-employees-to-lions/

The slipery slope has been laid out, and it's taking effect:

http://www.moonmontchronicle.com/supreme-court-rules-jcpenney-allowed-to-sacrifice-employees-to-appease-cthulhu.html

http://dailycurrant.com/2014/07/01/hobby-lobby-stones-gay-employee-to-death/

While the court agrees keeping people from being murdered is a compelling governmental interest, unfortunately for those (former) employees, an outright prohibition on murder is not the least restrictive means of ensuring they don't fall victim to this fate, as that results in many people potentially spending decades in jail. The law could have simply required placards indicating the terms under which the company's religion mandates their death. Note that a law requiring such signage need not actually be passed for these exceptions to the statutes against murder to hold.

Also, it should be noted that this ruling is only intended to hold in regards to stoning and cthulhu-based sacrifices.

The judgments in all murder proceedings are reversed. It is so ordered.

[rushmc 18]

you know the ugly lie of all this?

no one is being denied anything

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

rushmc

you know the ugly lie of all this?

no one is being denied anything

I think the female workers of the company.. already paid a pittance by their corporate owners.... would disagree with you...... but hey.. as long as you can't see it I guess it does not exist.