War with Syria

[ryoder 1,384]

Who knew there was a third side to the story: http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/9/9/syria-s-nonviolentresistanceisdyingtobeheard.html

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[quade 3]

I was pretty sure it was less of a coin and more of a D20 to begin with. There's almost always yet another story.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[yoink 321]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24022866

Kerry proposes a solution in jest and the Russians call him on it!

Go team Russia!

I would approve of sanctions and the confirmed confiscation and destruction of Syrias chemical weapons as a decent middle ground. If it's achievable it sounds like a reasonable solution to me.

[quade 3]

yoink

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24022866

Kerry proposes a solution in jest and the Russians call him on it!

Go team Russia!

I would approve of sanctions and the confirmed confiscation and destruction of Syrias chemical weapons as a decent middle ground. If it's achievable it sounds like a reasonable solution to me.

Same here.

Regardless of what some bloviators might say it would take some sarin out of the hands of enemies and was, in fact, only made possible by the US threats to bomb. Certainly Syria would never have even considered it before.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rhaig 0]

quade

I was pretty sure it was less of a coin and more of a D20 to begin with. There's almost always yet another story.

I prefer to refer to these situations as a D100. They never quit changing, and once you think it's stopped changing, you barely touch the table and it's rolling again.

--
Rob

[Darius11 12]

Quote

Leaked Iranian letter warned US that Syrian rebels have chemical weapons

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2013/0909/Leaked-Iranian-letter-warned-US-that-Syrian-rebels-have-chemical-weapons


I don't know who to believe, i do know the war will be good for one group of people the people who make there living making weapons. They stand to make billions.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[champu 1]

champu

Are there things we could do? Sure, there are a lot of options. We could push for a UN-led, US-backed mandated stand-down and march through the country securing and destroying all chemical weapons we can find. That would be consistant with the international safety concerns about chemical weapons usage and it even has the added benefit of being agnostic about the perpetrators of the Aug 21st attack in case people still have doubts. Cost. Risk. Reward. Is that better than doing nothing? I'd say no. Reward is moderate. Risk is moderate. But the rent is too damn high (as they say.)

Seeing as Assad and Putin are both talking about doing something along these lines now, it would appear the cost dropped a bit it the last two days...

[airdvr 197]

champu

***Are there things we could do? Sure, there are a lot of options. We could push for a UN-led, US-backed mandated stand-down and march through the country securing and destroying all chemical weapons we can find. That would be consistant with the international safety concerns about chemical weapons usage and it even has the added benefit of being agnostic about the perpetrators of the Aug 21st attack in case people still have doubts. Cost. Risk. Reward. Is that better than doing nothing? I'd say no. Reward is moderate. Risk is moderate. But the rent is too damn high (as they say.)

Seeing as Assad and Putin are both talking about doing something along these lines now, it would appear the cost dropped a bit it the last two days...

Indeed. Off the irony meter that Gay-Bashing Putin makes Nobel Peace Prize Barry look like a fool. When you plant potatoes don't expect apples.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[turtlespeed 212]

airdvr

******Are there things we could do? Sure, there are a lot of options. We could push for a UN-led, US-backed mandated stand-down and march through the country securing and destroying all chemical weapons we can find. That would be consistant with the international safety concerns about chemical weapons usage and it even has the added benefit of being agnostic about the perpetrators of the Aug 21st attack in case people still have doubts. Cost. Risk. Reward. Is that better than doing nothing? I'd say no. Reward is moderate. Risk is moderate. But the rent is too damn high (as they say.)

Seeing as Assad and Putin are both talking about doing something along these lines now, it would appear the cost dropped a bit it the last two days...

Indeed. Off the irony meter that Gay-Bashing Putin makes Nobel Peace Prize Barry look like a fool. When you plant potatoes don't expect apples.

Indeed . . . when you try to make a statue out of compost, don't expect to smell pretty at the end of it all.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 2,400]

> I am turned off by his haste to go blow shit up as his predecessor did.

I am too, but was very happy to see this:

=================
• President Obama asked Senate Democrats on Tuesday to delay voting on authorizing military action in Syria while the diplomatic process works itself out, according to senators in the meeting. The president "asked for some time to work things out -- a matter of days into next week," Sen. Dick Durbin said.

• Syria is willing to join the Chemical Weapons Convention, Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Moallem said in a statement before departing Moscow on Tuesday, according to Russian news agency Interfax.

• Syria says it is ready to disclose the location of its chemical weapons stockpile, halt production, and show its facilities to representatives of Russia, the United Nations, and other states, Interfax cited Moallem as saying. The report did not identify the other states.

• Russia will propose a U.N. draft declaration backing an initiative to put Syrian chemical weapons under international control, the Russian Foreign Ministry said Tuesday. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has told France that its own draft resolution holding the Syrian government responsible for the use of chemical weapons is "unacceptable."
=================

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

• President Obama asked Senate Democrats on Tuesday to delay voting on authorizing military action in Syria while the diplomatic process works itself out, according to senators in the meeting. The president "asked for some time to work things out -- a matter of days into next week," Sen. Dick Durbin said.

speaking cynically, isn't this just a response to the reality that he would lose, badly, on a vote right now?

[billvon 2,400]

>speaking cynically, isn't this just a response to the reality that he would lose, badly,
>on a vote right now?

I think it's a response to a potential diplomatic solution. It would be pointless to even call for a vote if there were a good diplomatic option on the table. And if the threat of attack got Assad to the bargaining table - well played.

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

>speaking cynically, isn't this just a response to the reality that he would lose, badly,
>on a vote right now?

I think it's a response to a potential diplomatic solution. It would be pointless to even call for a vote if there were a good diplomatic option on the table. And if the threat of attack got Assad to the bargaining table - well played.

I can't give him so much credit. We (the US) want Assad out. It looked like we had the vehicle to make it happen - the use of chemical weapons. If we let Assad give up the weapons and reaffirm a commitment to the non use, he basically got away with it and will remain in power. In short, he and Russia outplayed us. Hell, he doesn't even have to follow through on the promise.

Even without the development, the motion was doomed in both Houses. So Obama can use this as the pretext to stall a week and see if he can marshall the support. If not, and especially if Assad continues to play nice (and I mean that literally - he's a shitbag dictator), then he can withdraw the motion entirely and try to quietly claim credit in the exact manner you suggest. Even thought we lost this battle.

[billvon 2,400]

>I can't give him so much credit.

I don't really care how much credit he (or Putin, or the UN, or Newt Gingrich) gets. What matters to me is that we are now less likely to bomb a foreign country and kill a bunch of people, and far less likely to get sucked into another Iraq.

> If we let Assad give up the weapons and reaffirm a commitment to the non use, he
>basically got away with it and will remain in power.

Good! Al Qaeda loses another battle, and fewer innocent people get killed via chemical weapons. Assad is still a dirtbag, and that's too bad - but it's not our job to depose every dirtbag leader in the world. The revolution may play out and depose him within the country, or it may not. Their call.

> Even thought we lost this battle.

Like Joshua said, "sometimes the only winning move is not to play."

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

> If we let Assad give up the weapons and reaffirm a commitment to the non use, he
>basically got away with it and will remain in power.

Good! Al Qaeda loses another battle, and fewer innocent people get killed via chemical weapons. Assad is still a dirtbag, and that's too bad - but it's not our job to depose every dirtbag leader in the world. The revolution may play out and depose him within the country, or it may not. Their call.

Why is it only important to limit the number of innocents killed via chemical weapons? The ongoing war will mean lots more innocents killed...and the greatest estimate puts chemical weapons as responsible for less than 2% of the dead.

Today Russia insists that any deal with Syria not have the use of force as a possible response to a Syrian failure to execute on its commitments. I think we can see already that the offer by them is insincere.

I don't worry about not attacking (I'm not in favor), but I do have concerns with Putin winning here.

[Nelyubin 0]

billvon

Good! Al Qaeda loses another battle, and fewer innocent people get killed via chemical weapons.

You don't confuse green and bitter?
Al-Qaeda = Assad?
You don't make laugh my slippers, precisely opposite.

[Nelyubin 0]

Darius11

Quote

Leaked Iranian letter warned US that Syrian rebels have chemical weapons

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2013/0909/Leaked-Iranian-letter-warned-US-that-Syrian-rebels-have-chemical-weapons


I don't know who to believe, i do know the war will be good for one group of people the people who make there living making weapons. They stand to make billions.

The Turkish authorities in May arrested the Syrian rebels. Withdrew from them 2 kilograms of sarin. Nobody knew about it?
http://www.radikal.com.tr/turkiye/adanada_el_nusra_operasyonu_2_kilo_sarin_gazi_bulundu-1135579

[rushmc 18]

billvon

> I am turned off by his haste to go blow shit up as his predecessor did.

I am too, but was very happy to see this:

=================
• President Obama asked Senate Democrats on Tuesday to delay voting on authorizing military action in Syria while the diplomatic process works itself out, according to senators in the meeting. The president "asked for some time to work things out -- a matter of days into next week," Sen. Dick Durbin said.

• Syria is willing to join the Chemical Weapons Convention, Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Moallem said in a statement before departing Moscow on Tuesday, according to Russian news agency Interfax.

• Syria says it is ready to disclose the location of its chemical weapons stockpile, halt production, and show its facilities to representatives of Russia, the United Nations, and other states, Interfax cited Moallem as saying. The report did not identify the other states.

• Russia will propose a U.N. draft declaration backing an initiative to put Syrian chemical weapons under international control, the Russian Foreign Ministry said Tuesday. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has told France that its own draft resolution holding the Syrian government responsible for the use of chemical weapons is "unacceptable."
=================

Obama had no other choice at this point

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,400]

>Why is it only important to limit the number of innocents killed via chemical weapons?

It's not the only important thing. It's just one important thing.

One of the problems with chemical weapons is that they're inherently not very discriminating - how many thousands are killed depends upon the winds and the microclimate, not upon who you're aiming at or the skill of your gunner. Both the US and the world in general have been less tolerant of chemical weapons killings than your more traditional bullets-and-rockets killings, partly because of this indiscriminate nature of them.

(Of course given that we're the only nation to use nuclear weapons against civilians we don't have the moral upper hand there to begin with.)

> The ongoing war will mean lots more innocents killed...and the greatest estimate puts
>chemical weapons as responsible for less than 2% of the dead.

Agreed. However, given our experience in Iraq, getting involved may just increase the number of dead.

>Today Russia insists that any deal with Syria not have the use of force as a possible
>response to a Syrian failure to execute on its commitments.

They should feel free to insist on whatever they want. So should we.

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

They should feel free to insist on whatever they want. So should we.

That sounds too much like "every culture should be respected, no matter how fucked up." Doesn't work for me.

Russia's demands imply, imo, that they and Syria have no intention of doing what they say they will do.

[quade 3]

kelpdiver

***
They should feel free to insist on whatever they want. So should we.

That sounds too much like "every culture should be respected, no matter how fucked up." Doesn't work for me.
Russia's demands imply, imo, that they and Syria have no intention of doing what they say they will do.

Which is precisely why we can't take bombing off the table. All parties know this. They're just asking.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[yoink 321]

Nelyubin

You don't confuse green and bitter?
Al-Qaeda = Assad?
You don't make laugh my slippers, precisely opposite.

Bill was referring to the idea that Al-Qaeda is supporting the rebellion and by NOT boming the crap out of the country (but finding a diplomatic solution) the risk of general chaos is reduced, thereby putting more of a limit of the activities of Al-Qaeda.

[rickjump1 0]

"Which is precisely why we can't take bombing off the table. All parties know this. They're just asking."


Bombing? Bombing who? Both sides will ultimately hate us in the end. Our treasury is drained, and we should waste expensive cruise missiles on people who have been killing each other for two thousand years? I would guess the gas has been relocated to high density population areas. Now we can get more bang for the buck. Wonder if this president considers using special ops as having boots on the ground. The man reeks of bull shit lines in the sand.

Lets face it, Putin put barry barack on a high and then (possibly) pulled the rug out from underneath him. Talk about getting settling old scores....... Nobody does it better than the Russians. Wish they had a football team.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[masterblaster72 0]

rickjump1

Our treasury is drained, and we should waste expensive cruise missiles on people who have been killing each other for two thousand years?

...

Wonder if this president considers using special ops as having boots on the ground. The man reeks of bull shit lines in the sand.

Did you feel the same way about W during the Iraq war as it became apparent that the very reason we went in was a lie? Interesting how no one on the right complained then, and I find it rich that it's the same people who are against bombing Syria now for reasons such as "our treasury is drained" among other ones.

Quote

Lets face it, Putin put barry barack on a high and then (possibly) pulled the rug out from underneath him. Talk about getting settling old scores....... Nobody does it better than the Russians. Wish they had a football team.

They do have a football team, you just aren't paying attention.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[RonD1120 58]

Great quote form the BlazeTV Tuesday night:

"The Obama administration is a rudderless ship on a sea of wishful thinking."

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.