Who needs an AR-15???

[Bignugget 0]

rehmwa

***It is a shame you favor higher crime rates

that's an unfair generalization: you can only determine that he favors: rape, assault, and burglary

not high crime in general


Over homicide, yes. That would be a fair characterization of my position on the matter.

If I had to choose

A) fewer homicides and more rape, assault, and burglary.

B) more homicides and fewer rape, assault, burglary.


I choose A.

[dmcoco84 4]

Quote

Amend the constitution. Remove the 2nd amendment, start collecting guns, and lets re-explore the issue in 50 years.

Again I grasp the concept of the federal government playing no role in personal life. I just don't agree with it when it deals with things that effect others. (I have no issue with what you do to/for/with yourself that does not effect me) I see the ability for anyone to acquire a gun as something that most definitely effects me.

If you really think I am trolling I don't know what to say to that. I take you as sincere, I believe what I have posted sincerely as well.

Coherent.

Thank You.

Quote

Amend the constitution. Remove the 2nd amendment, start collecting guns, and lets re-explore the issue in 50 years.

To abide by the Constitution, your statement would need to be:

Amend the Constitution: Repeal the 2nd Amendment, Pass and Ratify 28th Amendment; then through proper legal means collect all fire arms and then abide by 28th Amendment and evaluate.

Amendments are never removed, they are repealed, to remind us of the scars of the past; our mistakes.

And likely, the best wording to achieve your opinion of what needs to be done to fix what you see as a problem, would be WHAT I PERSONALLY PUT INTO QUADE'S MOUTH SINCE HE DIDN'T HAVE THE BALLS TO RESPOND, :


A well regulated Militia, is not necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall be determined by a Federal panel of experts.


This, would be legal... however, it's never gonna happen.

So... aside from these points, this thread, is done.

There is nothing else to say. Period.

At least... I'm done.

[kelpdiver 2]

Bignugget

'We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men. '

Two problems for your argument here.
1- you're citing the Declaration of Independence. Although certainly a key document from the time, it is the Constitution that matters.
2- the right to life includes the right to self defense, which the gun enables. Without it, you're at risk to bigger or more numerous bad guys.

[dmcoco84 4]

Meant to add one last thing:

Quote

Again I grasp the concept of the federal government playing no role in personal life. I just don't agree with it when it deals with things that effect others. (I have no issue with what you do to/for/with yourself that does not effect me) I see the ability for anyone to acquire a gun as something that most definitely effects me.

If right now, at this very moment, I walk out the door, drive to the store... and purchase 2 AR-15's, two parts kits, 20K rounds of 223, and a complete set of full body military body armor...

...how does that effect you?

[dmcoco84 4]

kelpdiver

***
'We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men. '

Two problems for your argument here.
1- you're citing the Declaration of Independence. Although certainly a key document from the time, it is the Constitution that matters.

Wrong... we've been over this.

And no one on this board has been able to cite what came right before the Declaration of Independence.

You are wrong, JUST, LIKE, QUADE.

[Bignugget 0]

kelpdiver

***
'We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men. '

Two problems for your argument here.
1- you're citing the Declaration of Independence. Although certainly a key document from the time, it is the Constitution that matters.
2- the right to life includes the right to self defense, which the gun enables. Without it, you're at risk to bigger or more numerous bad guys.

1) I wasn't, DMCO was, that was a quote from a thread he wrote about the philosophy of America.

2) is what the whole discussion is about.

RUSHMC posted a link to an article that had a decent quote in it.

""Foreign style gun control is doomed to failure in America. Foreign gun control comes along with searches and seizures, and with many other restrictions on civil liberties too intrusive for America. Foreign gun control...postulates an authoritarian philosophy of government fundamentally at odds with the individualist and egalitarian American ethos.""

Fair enough. It probably will never happen in America. America will probably continue to lead 1st world nations in homicides by far. I just don't think its good.

I would try experimenting a bit more.

[kelpdiver 2]

dmcoco84

You are wrong, JUST, LIKE, QUADE.

it would be hard for me to be wrong just like quade on this subject. Maybe in other ways, but I tend to doubt it.

The 13 states ratified the Constitution.

[dmcoco84 4]

Quote

I would try experimenting a bit more.

We ARE... we are a post-constitutional nation.

We need to return to the original experiment... the Constitution.

[rushmc 18]

Bignugget

******
'We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men. '

Two problems for your argument here.
1- you're citing the Declaration of Independence. Although certainly a key document from the time, it is the Constitution that matters.
2- the right to life includes the right to self defense, which the gun enables. Without it, you're at risk to bigger or more numerous bad guys.

1) I wasn't, DMCO was, that was a quote from a thread he wrote about the philosophy of America.

2) is what the whole discussion is about.

RUSHMC posted a link to an article that had a decent quote in it.

""Foreign style gun control is doomed to failure in America. Foreign gun control comes along with searches and seizures, and with many other restrictions on civil liberties too intrusive for America. Foreign gun control...postulates an authoritarian philosophy of government fundamentally at odds with the individualist and egalitarian American ethos.""

Fair enough. It probably will never happen in America. America will probably continue to lead 1st world nations in homicides by far. I just don't think its good.

I would try experimenting a bit more.

It is interesting that you use this quote
I will ask you however
Why did you snip it out of the myth it referenced and put the quote in total context?

And guns having nothing to do with your less than honest assertion of the murder rates

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

And to the quote
Do you support this?

Quote

.postulates an authoritarian philosophy of government

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[dmcoco84 4]

dmcoco84

Meant to add one last thing:

Quote

Again I grasp the concept of the federal government playing no role in personal life. I just don't agree with it when it deals with things that effect others. (I have no issue with what you do to/for/with yourself that does not effect me) I see the ability for anyone to acquire a gun as something that most definitely effects me.

If right now, at this very moment, I walk out the door, drive to the store... and purchase 2 AR-15's, two parts kits, 20K rounds of 223, and a complete set of full body military body armor...

...how does that effect you?

?

[normiss 622]

To be fair, it was the fucking foreigners that brought weapons to our fine country in the first place.
Blame them.

[rushmc 18]

normiss

To be fair, it was the fucking foreigners that brought weapons to our fine country in the first place.
Blame them.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[regulator 0]

Bignugget

******
'We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men. '

Two problems for your argument here.
1- you're citing the Declaration of Independence. Although certainly a key document from the time, it is the Constitution that matters.
2- the right to life includes the right to self defense, which the gun enables. Without it, you're at risk to bigger or more numerous bad guys.

1) I wasn't, DMCO was, that was a quote from a thread he wrote about the philosophy of America.

2) is what the whole discussion is about.

RUSHMC posted a link to an article that had a decent quote in it.

""Foreign style gun control is doomed to failure in America. Foreign gun control comes along with searches and seizures, and with many other restrictions on civil liberties too intrusive for America. Foreign gun control...postulates an authoritarian philosophy of government fundamentally at odds with the individualist and egalitarian American ethos.""

Fair enough. It probably will never happen in America. America will probably continue to lead 1st world nations in homicides by far. I just don't think its good.

I would try experimenting a bit more.
---------------------------------------------------
when it happens let me know how fighting off intruders with a my little pony dildo works out for you.

[regulator 0]

dmcoco84

***Meant to add one last thing:

Quote

Again I grasp the concept of the federal government playing no role in personal life. I just don't agree with it when it deals with things that effect others. (I have no issue with what you do to/for/with yourself that does not effect me) I see the ability for anyone to acquire a gun as something that most definitely effects me.

If right now, at this very moment, I walk out the door, drive to the store... and purchase 2 AR-15's, two parts kits, 20K rounds of 223, and a complete set of full body military body armor...

...how does that effect you?

?
----------------------------------------------------------
I'd want to know where you got a deal on 20k rounds of .223 ammo. Cause I want some too.

[dmcoco84 4]

regulator

******Meant to add one last thing:

Quote

Again I grasp the concept of the federal government playing no role in personal life. I just don't agree with it when it deals with things that effect others. (I have no issue with what you do to/for/with yourself that does not effect me) I see the ability for anyone to acquire a gun as something that most definitely effects me.

If right now, at this very moment, I walk out the door, drive to the store... and purchase 2 AR-15's, two parts kits, 20K rounds of 223, and a complete set of full body military body armor...

...how does that effect you?

?
----------------------------------------------------------
I'd want to know where you got a deal on 20k rounds of .223 ammo. Cause I want some too.
One thing at a time...

...need an answer first.

[Pacific 0]

Alcohol is more dangerous. Both directly and indirectly.
We tried banning that too.

[DanG 1]

Quote

When you get down to it, two people with guns are at their most civilized (or should be) as neither has the brute force advantage over the other. Any differences will need to be worked out peacefully, otherwise you risk a good chance of getting killed (at least, as good as killing the other guy).

That would be true if people acted rationally. Unfortunately, they don't. If what you posted were true, there would be no gang shootouts, or shootouts with the police. For that matter, there wouldn't be wars either.

Weapons are tools. They can be tools for defense, but they can also be tools for offense. I'm not saying that guns should be banned, for from it. I am saying that the old saying about an armed society being a polite society is demonstrably false.

- Dan G

[skypuppy 1]

Bignugget

Or just don't let the little kids run around unattended in an area where bears regularly prowl....

Nah fuck that.

Arm yourselves!

Just ETA: In case you haven't seen my myriad of posts talking about allowing people to have firearms in limited circumstance....
I have no issue with Little House on the Prairie Joe Bob having a firearm to protect against dangerous wildlife or hunting food for the family, properly licensed and approved.

I am quite certain there are not 280 million of those guys around, and as such we are grossly over on the gun to Joe Bob Little House guys ratio.

280 million fewer means to end life is a much better route to go. We can handle issuing 100k permits for the wilderness livers and the fun loving competition shooters.

man, you actually believe in the United States there's only 100 k people living in rural areas who want guns for defending their livestock and families from wild animals, let alone fun-loving competition shooters?

Did you drop out of school? You need to look up some stats.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

man, you actually believe in the United States there's only 100 k people living in rural areas who want guns for defending their livestock and families from wild animals, let alone fun-loving competition shooters?

Did you drop out of school? You need to look up some stats.

Having never heard of Olympic rifle, biathlon, camp perry, three gun, IDPA, IPSC, skeet, trap, plinking, cowboy action, black powder hunting, handgun hunting, rifle hunting, reenactment, the other myriad shooting activities, plinking, or plain old collecting, he can still be an authority on guns and their uses, right? Without ever serving, carrying for his employment or his safety, talking I anyone who does, or reading the wealth or literature on the subject, he can still tell us what the truth really is, right?

I guess he thinks everybody else's guns, and by extension everybody else, is a deadly threat to him. I tend to trust humanity more than him, and I guess I'm jut better at keeping incidents in proportion. I feel kinda sorry for him, being scared and unempowered all the time. I like knowing the score and my place in things. I also realize that making others powerless does not make me more powerful, it only makes them less powerful. I prefer people have choices more than being forced to conform to make silly people feel better. Most of all, I recognize that guns are not the cause of this countries problems, and would much rather address the issues that are.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Bignugget 0]

skypuppy

***Or just don't let the little kids run around unattended in an area where bears regularly prowl....

Nah fuck that.

Arm yourselves!

Just ETA: In case you haven't seen my myriad of posts talking about allowing people to have firearms in limited circumstance....
I have no issue with Little House on the Prairie Joe Bob having a firearm to protect against dangerous wildlife or hunting food for the family, properly licensed and approved.

I am quite certain there are not 280 million of those guys around, and as such we are grossly over on the gun to Joe Bob Little House guys ratio.

280 million fewer means to end life is a much better route to go. We can handle issuing 100k permits for the wilderness livers and the fun loving competition shooters.

man, you actually believe in the United States there's only 100 k people living in rural areas who want guns for defending their livestock and families from wild animals, let alone fun-loving competition shooters?

Did you drop out of school? You need to look up some stats.


Zzzz...

You guys should really try to come up with actual thoughts, instead of just nitpicking my word selection.

Try this.

280 million fewer means to end life is a much better route to go. We can handle issuing WAY LESS THAN 280 MILLION permits for the wilderness livers and the fun loving competition shooters.

Better?

[Bignugget 0]

Kennedy

Quote

man, you actually believe in the United States there's only 100 k people living in rural areas who want guns for defending their livestock and families from wild animals, let alone fun-loving competition shooters?

Did you drop out of school? You need to look up some stats.

Having never heard of Olympic rifle, biathlon, camp perry, three gun, IDPA, IPSC, skeet, trap, plinking, cowboy action, black powder hunting, handgun hunting, rifle hunting, reenactment, the other myriad shooting activities, plinking, or plain old collecting, he can still be an authority on guns and their uses, right? Without ever serving, carrying for his employment or his safety, talking I anyone who does, or reading the wealth or literature on the subject, he can still tell us what the truth really is, right?

I guess he thinks everybody else's guns, and by extension everybody else, is a deadly threat to him. I tend to trust humanity more than him, and I guess I'm jut better at keeping incidents in proportion. I feel kinda sorry for him, being scared and unempowered all the time. I like knowing the score and my place in things. I also realize that making others powerless does not make me more powerful, it only makes them less powerful. I prefer people have choices more than being forced to conform to make silly people feel better. Most of all, I recognize that guns are not the cause of this countries problems, and would much rather address the issues that are.

280 million fewer means to kill things is a good thing.

[Bignugget 0]

dmcoco84

***Meant to add one last thing:

Quote

Again I grasp the concept of the federal government playing no role in personal life. I just don't agree with it when it deals with things that effect others. (I have no issue with what you do to/for/with yourself that does not effect me) I see the ability for anyone to acquire a gun as something that most definitely effects me.

If right now, at this very moment, I walk out the door, drive to the store... and purchase 2 AR-15's, two parts kits, 20K rounds of 223, and a complete set of full body military body armor...

...how does that effect you?

?

affect, right?

I always get confused.

It affects me because I am 90x more likely to be murdered by a gun in the USA than if I lived in the UK.

That is driven directly by your ability to do what you said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate#List

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

280 million fewer means to kill things is a good thing.

My knives are means to kill things. My motor vehicles are means to kill things. Most of the tools and equipment in the garage is means to kill things. The tie my wife gave me is means to kill things. The pen my father gave me is a means to kill things. Damn near anything a person chooses to use as a weapon is means to kill things. There are a lot more than 280 million means to kill things in this country.

Yet again, you're focusing on what people are using to kill instead of the fact that they are killing. THIS IS CALLED BLAMING THE TOOL. You really need to focus on the fact that murders are being committed rather than how they are being committed.

Less guns in this country is not a good thing. Fewer murders in this country would be a good thing. Since forcing the former would not cause the latter, you're not making a sound case. And because there is no way in hell this country will ever ban firearms for private ownership and use, you're tilting at windmills.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

Bignugget

******Meant to add one last thing:

Quote

Again I grasp the concept of the federal government playing no role in personal life. I just don't agree with it when it deals with things that effect others. (I have no issue with what you do to/for/with yourself that does not effect me) I see the ability for anyone to acquire a gun as something that most definitely effects me.

If right now, at this very moment, I walk out the door, drive to the store... and purchase 2 AR-15's, two parts kits, 20K rounds of 223, and a complete set of full body military body armor...

...how does that effect you?

?

affect, right?

I always get confused.

It affects me because I am 90x more likely to be murdered by a gun in the USA than if I lived in the UK.

That is driven directly by your ability to do what you said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate#List

(A) Correlation is not causation.
(B) You're showing that murder by firearm is more likely in the US than the UK.
(B1) Would you feel better if it was murder by means other than a firearm?
(B2) If you're that worried, move to the UK. That would have a bigger impact of your odds of being murdered than passing new guns laws in the USA.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*