Is he a whistle blower or traitor?

[quade 3]

ayevee8toryear

Quote

As we've pointed out, there are legal ways to being illegal activities to light. Your whiny little hit of a hero chose none of them. He broke the law, he was wrong, and he knows it; hence the guilty plea.

There is not question whether he broke the law, the question is whether it was necessary or not.

Actually, no; it's not. Whistleblower Protection Act doesn't apply in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower_Protection_Act

So, the whole question is kinda moot.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jcd11235 0]

ayevee8toryear

Quote

As we've pointed out, there are legal ways to being illegal activities to light. Your whiny little hit of a hero chose none of them. He broke the law, he was wrong, and he knows it; hence the guilty plea.

There is not question whether he broke the law, the question is whether it was necessary or not.

No. The question is whether his illegal disclosure of classified information to the press constitutes providing aid to the enemy. From what I've thus far read, I don't think it does, but I'm not a member of the jury.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[quade 3]

I think the bigger issue here is the indiscriminate nature of his involvement. Because of the high volume of information he passed on to Wikileaks, there is absolutely no way he could have possibly known what was in every bit of it. It's just not mathematically possible.

Without him KNOWING everything he let fall into public hands was "just" embarrassing, it's difficult for me to say it wasn't treason because of the potential for damage he did without any seeming regard.

The kid isn't going to get death, but I just don't see how he goes free either.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jcd11235 0]

quade

I think the bigger issue here is the indiscriminate nature of his involvement. Because of the high volume of information he passed on to Wikileaks, there is absolutely no way he could have possibly known what was in every bit of it. It's just not mathematically possible.

Without him KNOWING everything he let fall into public hands was "just" embarrassing, it's difficult for me to say it wasn't treason because of the potential for damage he did without any seeming regard.

The kid isn't going to get death, but I just don't see how he goes free either.

He's already pleaded guilty to the leaks. He won't go free. Even if he's acquitted of the charges for which he's being tried, he's still facing up to 20 years.

I just don't think releasing the information in the manner he did constitutes providing aid to the enemy. I don't think that was his intent. (Again, since I'm not on the jury judge, it's irrelevant what I think.)

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Kennedy 0]

ayevee8toryear

Quote

As we've pointed out, there are legal ways to being illegal activities to light. Your whiny little hit of a hero chose none of them. He broke the law, he was wrong, and he knows it; hence the guilty plea.

There is not question whether he broke the law, the question is whether it was necessary or not.

How many times do you want me to say it? As we've pointed out, there were legal ways to blow the whistle if he had legitimate concerns. Since he had legal options available, breaking the law was clearly NOT necessary.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kelpdiver 2]

jcd11235

(Again, since I'm not on the jury, it's irrelevant what I think.)

there is no jury - he waived his right to one and will just have the judge rule. Which is probably the most sensible - juries make emotional decisions.

[jcd11235 0]

kelpdiver

***(Again, since I'm not on the jury, it's irrelevant what I think.)

there is no jury - he waived his right to one and will just have the judge rule. Which is probably the most sensible - juries make emotional decisions.

Interesting. I didn't realize that.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[normiss 622]

I didn't think you could get a jury at a courts martial.
So many caveats to the UCMJ...always gotta be on your toes!

[rehmwa 2]

sfzombie13

fucker should be shot as an example.

I don't find this comment to really reflect the image of honor and integrity you are pushing, frankly. I realize you are trying to convey your sense of outrage and the strength of your opinion here and are speaking in hyperbole. But it weakens your argument which would be a good one.

1 - If you caught him in such an act, the honorable thing to do would be to hold him and take him to the authorities. A dishonorable action would be to shoot him - judge, jury, and executioner.

2 - He should be tried in the appropriate court. Sentencing is for the justice system to determine, not random strangers.

3 - Sentencing should be done to address the crimes, not as an example for others (deterrence arguments are a foothold to abusing the justice system as an excuse to give unequal penalties under the law).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

kelpdiver

***(Again, since I'm not on the jury, it's irrelevant what I think.)

there is no jury - he waived his right to one and will just have the judge rule. Which is probably the most sensible - juries make emotional decisions.

he's piece of trash, waiving the jury and admitting guilt to part of the crimes is the best he's done so far

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[normiss 622]

So if I understand the UCMJ regarding a courts martial...
It's not a jury per se, it's a panel selected by the commanding officer or the officer handling the proceeding ('judge' if you will).

I don't see where you can "waive" this part.

So essentially, those on the panel are officers under the command of the convening authority or the C.O. - no bias there I'm sure.

Glad I only had one - and it was silly.
In short, a bunch of us sailors were found to be guilty of upholding the wrong sailor tradition - that of being drunk.
Send me to a remote base for 16 hours with NOTHING to do on base and the only thing open was the EM club. That and the sailor we were all stuck waiting on missed out on the beer fest so we stopped at the PX on the way off base and picked up a few cases.


I didn't violate the responsibility of my security clearance. Ever.

[Darius11 12]

Quote

The Oath of Enlistment (for enlisted):

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God

Is this not the oath you guys bring up. If it is I see it is very smartly written with loyalty to the constitution as the highest priority. I see it as this; if you officer gives you an order that you know to be unconstitutional you should not follow the order.

That takes more integrity and balls then blindly following what ever your told, and I think that's why it is written the way it is.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[wmw999 2,149]

The question comes in determining the constitutionality of an order. When a country is at war, there's a lot of leeway.

Again, if he'd only released the photos of atrocities, the reaction wouldn't have been the same. Consider what happened when the Abu Ghraib incidents came to light -- they came to light because people reported them up the chain (and I believe some photos were leaked as well). But it was targeted, and not just a shotgun assumption that everything was "illegal" and therefore "ok" to release (the quotes aren't for emphasis -- they're for what I consider to be misinterpretation.

I've not been in the military, but I believe one has the right to question orders -- but if it's in the heat of battle, that's hard to do, just as changing your mind on emergency procedures is hard to do when you're in the middle of a skydive. And when one takes action on a disagreement over the constitutionality of orders, one takes the consequences if the resulting judgment disgrees.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Darius11 12]

I understand what you mean, greater good and all that. Sometimes you can't question, and a lot of times people do not have the time to paint the whole picture to everyone. Sometimes they don't want share all the info to assure a better chance at success. I get it
I get what every one is saying also, but I do feel it's a bit in the gray area.
I probably like him because he helped expose murder. I like it any time peoples perfect white and black perception of the world turns a bit grayer (more real). So I have my bias on him.

Pretty sure I would feel very angry if I believed all the bull shit "we stand for freedom, were the good guys, we only kill bad guys" and then saw a video of our guys murdering children and enjoying it. So I understand his action better then the legality of it. Personally I usually don't care much for the law I know right from wrong and that's all that matters to me. I know that is not how the courts work, and unfortunately many minds work like the courts.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[sfzombie13 307]

i wasn't really trying to present an image of honor or integrity with this statement, i was little pissed. i don't think i would really recommend death for this infraction. kinda like it's not against the law to be stupid. hard to imagine what he was thinking, if he was as smart as i've heard, wtf? had to be for sensationalism.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[sfzombie13 307]

i would love to know where you got the ucmj thingy you quoted. i really loved the part at the bottom. do you honestly think that shit would work? i really want to believe that you are messing around, like a devil's advocate. i am speaking from real life, not a movie. and it has also been backed up by research how people do shit they wouldn't do normally when placed in extreme circumstances. i have never been ordered to do anything illegal, can't say what would have happened if i had, i probably would have refused, but try to detain the one who ordered it? sure, i'll get right on that.

and if you find it difficult to answer a question about what you would do with access to classified information, i hope i never meet you in real life. on the internet, you expect some people to act differently while anonymous. but to have an attitude toward your word such as this? at least politicians and lawyers try, they usually start out honest(not that they are all dishonest, or even most, i just don't care for them as a group, my predjudice). you are basically saying that you are not to be trusted. hell, i'm not perfect, but if i say i'll do something, i'll do it. and a verbal contract with me is binding.

this shitball is yet another example of the degradation of our society as a whole, and your attitude, the total lack of honor, showing support for him, speaks volumes of how easily society has been led down this path of destruction. and i'm not trying to single you out, i see the same thing on facebook and around the internet. the more i see, the more i want to prepare my secret compound in the woods.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[funjumper101 15]

Darius11

Quote

The Oath of Enlistment (for enlisted):

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God

Is this not the oath you guys bring up. If it is I see it is very smartly written with loyalty to the constitution as the highest priority. I see it as this; if you officer gives you an order that you know to be unconstitutional you should not follow the order.

That takes more integrity and balls then blindly following what ever your told, and I think that's why it is written the way it is.

The fact that Manning exposed the facts of the illegal invasion and occupation of a country that NEVER had the means or power to do anything of a MILITARY action against the USA makes him a hero in the rest of the first world countries, to the average citizens of those countries.

"I was only following orders" was proven during the Nuremberg trials to NOT be a defense against war crimes.
The fact that the USA executed quite a few Japanese for war crimes after WWII, due to the torture (waterboarding, among other actions), is not something that the RWCs are willing to admit to.

The fact that so many of the people who purport to be loyal citizens of the USA actually come across as blindly following their leaders is quite shameful. Manning lived up to the oath quoted. Note that the oath states "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.". That is EXACTLY what he did. The domestic enemies would be the people who ordered and committed the war crimes. That includes the helo pilots, and their line of command, all the way to the CIC.

Iraq never, at any time, was a direct threat to the USA. The USA blew off dealing with the issue in Afghanistan so as to complete Shub's vengeance against those that made threats against Poppy during Desert Storm. Add in the PNAC and their motives are quite clear, to those with a slight bit of a clue.

The Project for a New American Century was the foundation for all of the foreign policy that happened under ShrubCo. Do a bit of research and read up on what they believed in, and what actually happened. It is very scary that signers of the original policy ended up as key players in ShrubCo.

The fact that the PNAC premise was total bullshit has completely escaped the Right Wing Conservatards.

[Kennedy 0]

Darius11

I understand what you mean, greater good and all that. Sometimes you can't question, and a lot of times people do not have the time to paint the whole picture to everyone. Sometimes they don't want share all the info to assure a better chance at success. I get it
I get what every one is saying also, but I do feel it's a bit in the gray area.
I probably like him because he helped expose murder. I like it any time peoples perfect white and black perception of the world turns a bit grayer (more real). So I have my bias on him.

Pretty sure I would feel very angry if I believed all the bull shit "we stand for freedom, were the good guys, we only kill bad guys" and then saw a video of our guys murdering children and enjoying it. So I understand his action better then the legality of it. Personally I usually don't care much for the law I know right from wrong and that's all that matters to me. I know that is not how the courts work, and unfortunately many minds work like the courts.

Let's pretend he had evidence of murder on that video. Let's pretend that reporting up the chain wouldn't have worked. Let's pretend reporting it to military investigators or congressional representatives wouldn't have worked. Let's pretend the only way to blow the whistle on the crime was going outside (reporters, wikileaks, whatever). If all that were true, I could see his reasoning for exposing the evidence of murder. What possible reason could he have for exposing every other piece of classified material he got his hands on? He swore an oath to protect that material. Is it right or wrong to break an oath? Is it right or wrong to expose things that your promised to keep secret if it doesn't clear a serious crime?

I still haven't heard anyone give a good reason for exposing hundreds of thousands of classified videos, photographs, and documents.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[RonD1120 58]

sfzombie13

i see the same thing on facebook and around the internet. the more i see, the more i want to prepare my secret compound in the woods.

Some are saying Belize, some Costa Rica. I am saying north GA mountains.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[ayevee8toryear 0]

Quote

i would love to know where you got the ucmj thingy you quoted. i really loved the part at the bottom. do you honestly think that shit would work?

ever tried using google?

Or the link I posted directly above the quote?

Quote

and if you find it difficult to answer a question about what you would do with access to classified information, i hope i never meet you in real life.

LOL, your question was non specific.

Quote

i have never been ordered to do anything illegal, can't say what would have happened if i had, i probably would have refused, but try to detain the one who ordered it? sure, i'll get right on that.

The Military is compartmentalized, you might not know that you are a part of an illegal action.

Manning had the information that showed him he was.

Quote

this shitball is yet another example of the degradation of our society as a whole, and your attitude, the total lack of honor, showing support for him, speaks volumes of how easily society has been led down this path of destruction.

Meanwhile in turkey there are some very strange cats...

Get of your high horse. there is nothing moral nor honorable about the escalation of the industrial military complex. You were warned about it by one of the very last presidents your could trust.

The Iraq war is a travesty.

please watch this and consider your definition of honor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

[davjohns 1]

ayevee8toryear

Quote

If you were closer to the military, you would know that anonymous calls to the Inspector General or Criminal Investigations Division regularly result in prosecutions, relief from duty, and other punishments...especially for senior personnel.

So nobody has suggested the invasions we are engaged in are illegal to the Inspector General?

War requires congressional approval and a declaration of war. There has not been one of those this century has there?

Ummm...you asked if I had evidence. I made it clear that said evidence is plentiful. You changed subjects.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Darius11 12]

Quote

I still haven't heard anyone give a good reason for exposing hundreds of thousands of classified videos, photographs, and documents.

This is what I THINK Happened. Short version SPITE longer version below:

I think he joined like most young kids do with the very idealistic views where he thought he was helping spread democracy, were the good guys blah blah blah. You get the image I am painting no more detail needed.
I believe when he saw and read some of the information he was able to he noticed and maybe felt like he was lied to. Now usually people who are totally on one side make a drastic move if it is founded that what they beloved in was horse shit. Maybe he thought were all bad and its all bad so he is going all in . Kind of like he did when he first joined up.
I have seen so many people in life who act the same way. It takes them a while to realize the truth is usually not so clear cut as they wish it to be. So they go from one extreme to another.

How many people you know who were fucking out of control and then became ultra religious or the other way around?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[ayevee8toryear 0]

Quote

Ummm...you asked if I had evidence. I made it clear that said evidence is plentiful. You changed subjects.

Nope, you gave me an example of a general in charge of a missile defence program..

I am talking about the Iraq war, Manning was in Iraq.

Regardless of what dodgy legislation has been passed that makes the invasion somehow legitimate, there was still not declaration of war.

That is unconstitutional

[Kennedy 0]

ayevee8toryear

Quote

Ummm...you asked if I had evidence. I made it clear that said evidence is plentiful. You changed subjects.

Nope, you gave me an example of a general in charge of a missile defence program..

I am talking about the Iraq war, Manning was in Iraq.

Regardless of what dodgy legislation has been passed that makes the invasion somehow legitimate, there was still not declaration of war.

That is unconstitutional

Congratulations. You're full of shit. What's next? Are you going to tell us that the 16th amendment never really happened an income tax is illegal too?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[RonD1120 58]

ayevee8toryear

Quote

Ummm...you asked if I had evidence. I made it clear that said evidence is plentiful. You changed subjects.

Nope, you gave me an example of a general in charge of a missile defence program..

I am talking about the Iraq war, Manning was in Iraq.

Regardless of what dodgy legislation has been passed that makes the invasion somehow legitimate, there was still not declaration of war.

That is unconstitutional

Your style of argument makes me think I've seen you here before, with a different log on name. Could that be possible?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.