Sure hope you don't want the cops to save your life

[regulator 0]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/career_criminal_identified_as_shooter_U03Y4u6WxboBpfp1uLGsrO

Andrea Rebello was accidentally shot in the head while career criminal Dalton Smith had her in a headlock and used her as a human shield while trying to escape out the back door, Det. Lt. John Azzata said.

Nassau County Police Department
Dalton Smith, a parole escapee, has been identified by police as the perpetator in the Hofstra home invasion.
The unidentified cop fired eight rounds, seven of which struck and killed Smith, and one of which hit Rebello, he said.

Smith was wielding a 9mm pistol with a bullet in the chamber and another in the magazine, Azzata said.

But he never got off a shot during the deadly violence early Friday morning inside Rebello's off-campus house in Uniondale, said police.

The cop who got off the shots was described only as a 12-plus year veteran of the Nassau County Police Department who earlier served more than seven years with the NYPD.
-----------------------------------------------------------

One cop fired 8 rounds...7 striking the subject and one striking and killing victim. I'm sorry but 8 rounds from one cop for one perp is serious overkill. And that one extra round ended someone elses life.

[kelpdiver 2]

-Joey-

Eight shots, really? He was that scared that he fired eight times indiscriminately as soon as the guy even pointed at him?

It's reported that all 8 shots struck, so it's hardly indiscriminate. Unfortunately, one struck the victim. I wonder where in the sequence of 8 that occurred - did a prior hit on the bad guy cause movement and lead to the 'miss.'

Is 8 shots excessive? Well, say the officer fires two into center mass of the bad guy (he probably can't, since the victim was being used as a shield). The bad guy will likely die - over 90% probability. But he likely lives more than long enough to kill the girl as a final act. He wasn't even able to fire a single round - which is what the officer wanted to make happen.

We would wish the officer had the option to retreat or take cover rather than engage in the firefight. And maybe he did. But there's no certainty that she would have fared better. It would be hard for it to be worse (but rape/murder would).

I'll echo the comments on the stupidity of engaging in a fair fight. IF you have to fight in a situation where losing may equal death, then you better do whatever you can to make the odds favor you. You can bet the other side will.

[BIGUN 1,098]

[Quote]One cop fired 8 rounds...7 striking the subject and one striking and killing victim. I'm sorry but 8 rounds from one cop for one perp is serious overkill. And that one extra round ended someone elses life.

A. We don't know which round killed the innocent.

B. Very rarely does a single to three or four 9mm rounds take someone down unless you manage a heart or head shot. Given that the perp was using the innocent as a shield; the officer was probably shooting at any exposed body part to get the perp to release the innocent.

ETA: IMO the 9mm is worthless in a combat situation.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[livendive 8]

Gravitymaster

This is why we need guns.

This. If the girl who ran for help had shot the intruder before he took a hostage, the police would have been doing clean-up duty, a much more significant part of their job description than trying to stop a crime in progress.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[OHCHUTE 0]

There are so many assholes running around shooting up the place that citizens need be armed to defend themselves. Reason: gun laws are not effective in abating gun violence. Guns are effective in abating gun violence.

[havoc996 0]

***



Educate yourself on tactics and training before making a statement that to anyone who has said training makes you look uneducated as far as mil/leo engagements are concerned. Once you decide to use deadly force you shoot until the threat is eliminated. Rarely if ever is one shot enough from a handgun. There are cases of FBI agents being killed by men who have already been shot 5 or more times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

There is a lot we can learn from this story and the outcome is tragic beyond words, but to be focusing on the police officer and not the worthless, life sucking FELON who instigated this whole thing is mind boggling.

It is easy to sit here afterwards and say this or should have that. This officer was confronted with a situation that most will never experience and he volunteered for this job. He already has to live with an outcome I am sure was his worst nightmare.

I can tell you first hand that in life and death situations people due crazy things. EXAMPLE: I once went to a house fire where a woman was standing outside with a box of fruity pebbles. That's what she grabbed running out of the house. I've seen guys who are highly trained in combat freeze up in a firefight. The first time I was ever shot at I sat up and looked around and was in the process of asking if we were being shot at when I was yanked down by an NCO.

We have all read AAR's of incidents involving jumpers on here and chimed in. I usually don't say much in those cases as my experience level is relatively low in the skydiving world. It is easy after the fact to say what was smart and what was not. We all also know that when the ground is rushing towards you, you do not have the luxury of breaking every little detail down and weighing all potential ramifications of your actions. Instead we react as skydivers in a spit second in an effort to save our lives! That is exactly what happened here except the choice he made ended the life of the hostage. His decisions where made in an effort to save the lives of all involved minus the felon. The felon claimed he was going to kill the hostage as he pointed a weapon at the officer. What exactly should this officer have waited for? The gun to go off? Be pointed back at the head of his hostage?

I have no interest in your opinion until I see some real thought going into it. It's clearly emotionally driven and completely lacking in real world experience or education on the subject. It would be a lot like me commenting on swooping technique with my WHOPPING 50 jumps.

Trail mix? Oh, you mean M&M's with obstacles.

[Stumpy 256]

OHCHUTE

There are so many assholes running around shooting up the place that citizens need be armed to defend themselves. Reason: gun laws are not effective in abating gun violence. Guns are effective in abating gun violence.

Bullshit.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[wmw999 2,166]

I'm torn as to whether he's serious, or if he's one of the most effective trolls we've ever had on dz.com. I'm leaning towards one of those, but I don't look up to either

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Stumpy 256]

wmw999

I'm torn as to whether he's serious, or if he's one of the most effective trolls we've ever had on dz.com

Wendy P.

I'm going with the latter.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[billvon 2,464]

>I'm torn as to whether he's serious

I think he's serious. When you look at what people out in the world believe, his notions aren't even all that extreme - unfortunately.

[AggieDave 6]

billvon

>I'm torn as to whether he's serious

I think he's serious. When you look at what people out in the world believe, his notions aren't even all that extreme - unfortunately.

I'm out in the real world. I've seen the good in people and I've seen the worst in people. I've seen what lurks in the shadows of our civilized society and I've chased into those shadows to remove the evil.

I would suggest that if you have the legal ability and training to carry a weapon, you should carry it. A lot of people would pander what Col. Grossman said "On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs" but I would tend to agree with him.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[NSEMN8R 0]

Quote

A lot of people would pander what Col. Grossman said "On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs" but I would tend to agree with him.

You mean that crap that thug-like cops spout off to stroke their bloated egos and justify their thug-like attitudes?

I appreciate that shit about as much as when they say things like "Hate the cops? Next time you get robbed call a crackhead...".

I don't hate all cops. But I ain't no fuckin sheep.

[AggieDave 6]

NSEMN8R

Quote

A lot of people would pander what Col. Grossman said "On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs" but I would tend to agree with him.

You mean that crap that thug-like cops spout off to stroke their bloated egos and justify their thug-like attitudes?

It wasn't even written by a cop, but sure, whatever you want to think. If you'll excuse me I've got to work on getting thug-like for my ego or something.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[NSEMN8R 0]

Quote

It wasn't even written by a cop, but sure, whatever you want to think. If you'll excuse me I've got to work on getting thug-like for my ego or something.

Didn't mean to be rude to you Dave. We know some of the same people and by all accounts you're a decent guy.

My opinion of police in general has become quite jaded though. Until very recently I owned an Indoor Gardening store. Over the past 4 years I've heard dozens of stories of the police up here tearing apart the lives of people who haven't hurt anyone at all. It's always the same story. Cops come in and rob these people of anything of value that they have. Cars, snowmobiles, electronics... In most cases they aren't ever charged with anything.

When it happens they are typically, they are given 3 choices.
They can buy their stuff back for cash. They can just pull up their pants and walk away and the cops will sell their stuff and keep the money. Or they can sue the cops for it and, if they can prove they didn't buy it with money obtained illegally, they can get it back in 6 months to a year.

Almost nobody tries to sue for their stuff back because the cops tell them that they have a Federal Agent on their taskforce that will bring them charges whether they were following State laws or not. They also tell them that they can bring in CPS to take their kids away if they try to sue.

This isn't a once in a while thing around here. This is a multi-million dollar business. Welcome to the new America.

Asset forfeiture laws and policing for profit have ruined the publc's perception of police.
When I was a kid we were taught that the police were there to help you. It's sad that I can't teach my kids the same thing.

[AggieDave 6]

That sounds strange to me, but I know there are bad folks out there.

I've seized property before, it was property used in the commission of a felony, it has it's own civil trial to determine if the seizure was correct and legal (to which the defendant can fight during that trial) then the property typically goes to auction. I don't get to use their car or whatever it was that I seized. I don't get any of the money, I get nothing for it but a bunch of work. The last seizure I did was after a car chase with some drug dealers. All told the paperwork took around 6 hours to complete (and that was just my paperwork), that doesn't include all the time I spent two years later at trial.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[NSEMN8R 0]

Up here in MI the cops get to keep whatever they can snatch.

http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2010/02/bridgeport_township_man_not_ha.html

Here's one high profile example, but there are countless more that no one hears about.

One of my best customers lost two snowmobiles and a motorcycle because he let a cop in his house. There was an accident in front of his house and they knocked at his door. He invited them in and they smelled marijuana. Like an idiot, he agreed to let them search.

State law allows him to grow 12 plants and have 2.5 oz of dried usable marijuana. He had 6 plants and 4.5 ounces of freshly trimmed marijuana drying on a screen. It would have dried out to less than he was allowed, but it didn't matter. If he would have fought it he would have been charged with felony manufacturing a controlled substance and maintaining a drug house. Even if he won, he would have spent more fighting the charges than his toys were worth. Besides, possession of any amount is a federal crime and they keep a Fed on their "Narcotics Enforcement Team" for just such a situation. He let the dirty cops keep his stuff and they never charged him with any crime.

This, and the dozens of stories like it, are why people up here teach thier kids NEVER to talk to strangers, especially if they are police.

[popsjumper 2]

billvon

>I'm torn as to whether he's serious

I think he's serious. When you look at what people out in the world believe, his notions aren't even all that extreme - unfortunately.

Yes, and those beliefs just don't pop up out of nowhere.
Naysaying does nothing towards resolving the very real problems.
But then, unfortunately, if one has his head in the sand he wouldn't recognize that there IS a problem and naysaying would be, in his eyes, a legitimate response for him.

I don't think questioning the "seriousness" is a proper way of addressing the issue he raised.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Stumpy

***There are so many assholes running around shooting up the place that citizens need be armed to defend themselves. Reason: gun laws are not effective in abating gun violence. Guns are effective in abating gun violence.

Bullshit.

Be specific...what part of that statement do you consider BS?
"many assholes"
"running around"
"shooting up the place"
"need to be armed"
"need to be armed to defend themselves"
'gun laws"
"gun laws are not effective"
"gun laws are not effective in abating gun violence"
"Guns are effective in abating gun violence"

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[davjohns 1]

Back on topic -

There is not enough information to determine whether the cop took reasonable action. What was the environment? Could he have taken cover and controlled the situation until help arrived? Which of the 8 rounds hit the girl? What did the suspect do after being hit? What was the nature of the headlock (high, low, standing, sitting, etc.) How accurate is the officer with his service weapon? How confident was the officer that the suspect was about to fire?

I have a background in LEO, Military, combat shooting, etc. I have not seen enough facts in this matter to offer much in the way of an opinion. I really don't think anyone else here has, either.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

I have a background in LEO, Military, combat shooting, etc. I have not seen enough facts in this matter to offer much in the way of an opinion. I really don't think anyone else here has, either.

Spoilsport.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

I have not seen enough facts in this matter to offer much in the way of an opinion. I really don't think anyone else here has, either.

Don't confuse them with the facts; they've already made up their minds.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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