How should Tsarnaev be handled? Criminal or Enemy Combatant?

[winsor 186]

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I heard on the news that he has not been read his Miranda Rights. This suggests that he may be treated as an enemy combatant.

If they go this route, they don't have to allow him to lawyer up and can turn him over for interrogation.

I don't think it's necessary though. I think we know the who and why. The only thing that is really missing is the "was anyone else involved." There probably was, but they are not in the states.

To me it's 6 of one, half-dozen of the other. I just want to know what everyone else thinks.

Besides, it's not like we can water-board these fucks any more...

If you want to wear a white hat, you have to follow the rules.

I have zero sympathy for the sonofabitch, but submit that the only valid approach is to let due process run its course.

This is to say, give him a scrupulously fair trial and hang him.


BSBD,

Winsor

[Skyrad 0]

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I disagree. Whether they left the country to get radicalized/receive instructions, etc. or whether they got their mission on the internet or at a local mosque, it does not matter. Is there any doubt that their mentors are enemies of this country.
Remember the "workplace violence" at Ft. Hood? His mentor was an American citizen in Yemen. Major Hasan is another combatant who should be tried before a military tribunal for terrorism on American soil. The American muslim who killed the young soldier outside the Little Rock Army Recruiting Station is another example. These people do not deserve their day in a civil court.

Military tribunals legitimise criminals and turns their acts of criminality into acts of war. By doing so you raise their cause to a level it does not deserve. Murder is a criminal act and these people are criminals.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Military commissions or tribunals are the answer. They also put the word out that this country means business.

They also violate the Constitution, putting the word out that this country is a big fat hypocrite when it comes to adhering to its own rule of law. I suggest that since you are vocally in favor of protecting part of the Constitution, you should be in favor of protecting all of it.

Exactly

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[mistercwood 287]

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I disagree. Whether they left the country to get radicalized/receive instructions, etc. or whether they got their mission on the internet or at a local mosque, it does not matter. Is there any doubt that their mentors are enemies of this country.
Remember the "workplace violence" at Ft. Hood? His mentor was an American citizen in Yemen. Major Hasan is another combatant who should be tried before a military tribunal for terrorism on American soil. The American muslim who killed the young soldier outside the Little Rock Army Recruiting Station is another example. These people do not deserve their day in a civil court.

Military tribunals legitimise criminals and turns their acts of criminality into acts of war. By doing so you raise their cause to a level it does not deserve. Murder is a criminal act and these people are criminals.

+1

You are playing chicken with a planet - you can't dodge and planets don't blink. Act accordingly.

[Andy9o8 0]

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>>He should be treated the same way as any other person suspected of commiting a crime. He is entitled to every protection that the Constitution provides. Kinda makes me want to barf, but that's the way it should be.

So far, that's exactly how it's going down.

Maybe not. For example, it's already being widely reported that the authorities may consider applying the post 9/11 "exceptions" to Miranda warnings & protections. In view of the immediate public debate and scrutiny that has generated, we'll see how that actually goes down once Tsarnaev is well enough to communicate.

[ryoder 1,384]

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Military tribunals legitimise criminals and turns their acts of criminality into acts of war. By doing so you raise their cause to a level it does not deserve. Murder is a criminal act and these people are criminals.

Exactly!!!

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[ryoder 1,384]

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This is to say, give him a scrupulously fair trial and hang him.

"We're gonna give you a fair trial, followed by a first class hanging." -- Brian Dennehy, "Silverado"(1985)

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[normiss 622]

I keep thinking of a Orlando PD detective I know.
Suspects are never read their Miranda rights at time of arrest.
They are read their rights during questioning.
Initialing and signing a form on each right as they are read.
Makes it clear they are aware of their rights.

If you're just arrested on a simple charge and go straight to jail, the cops need no information from you, no questioning, no Miranda rights.

Some folks watch too much television.

[wmw999 2,123]

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These people turned their backs on this country and went over to the other side that is at war with the US.
They are enemy combatants. They no longer fall under civil law or the Constitution. Nobody is tearing up the Constitution

Kind of like Timothy McVeigh, right?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Andy9o8 0]

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I keep thinking of a Orlando PD detective I know.
Suspects are never read their Miranda rights at time of arrest.
They are read their rights during questioning.
Initialing and signing a form on each right as they are read.
Makes it clear they are aware of their rights.

Yes, that's pretty much the way it is every place I've ever worked with (several states/cities)

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If you're just arrested on a simple charge and go straight to jail, the cops need no information from you, no questioning, no Miranda rights.

Correct. Clients, on first interview, sometimes tell me, "..and they never read me my rights!! "
..to which I ask, "Did they question you? Did you make a statement? Did you confess to anything?"
"Uh.. no."
"Then it doesn't make any difference"
" But I thought..."

...and here's why they thought it:

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Some folks watch too much television.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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He will be treated as a US Citizen, which is what he is.

But maybe not for long. As a naturalized citizen myself, I can tell you that in the application for naturalization there are questions like (paraphrasing) "have you ever been involved in a criminal enterprise for which you were not charged or convicted", and "have you ever been involved in a plot against the United States". You are asked to reaffirm your answers to these questions at the time of your final interview, shortly before the oath ceremony itself. I commented to someone that an applicant would be an idiot to answer "yes" to those questions, but I was told that's not the point. The point is, if you answer "no" when the honest answer is "yes" you've lied on the application and your citizenship can be revoked. If the FBI or whoever can prove that Tsarnaev was involved in the plot before last September 11 (when he became a citizen) it's possible that he could be stripped of his US citizenship. It's been done before, in the case of major drug dealers and also in the case of that guy who was accused (and ultimately convicted) of being a Nazi concentration camp guard. I don't know what the process is for doing that, if a trial is required or just a bureaucratic decision.

That being said, the constitution refers to "persons" not "citizens" in the relevant passages; even if you are not a citizen you are entitled to a trial, and are protected against self-incrimination and double jeopardy etc just as any citizen is. I can't fathom how it is that people who are so adamant about their 2nd amendment rights are also perfectly happy with the government using an unconstitutional "enemy combatant" designation to strip people of all their constitutional rights and imprison them indefinitely without trial.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Andy9o8 0]

Correct, and agreed, on all points (of which there are several).

[champu 1]

I think that regardless of one's view of the "enemy combatant" status as used elsewhere, there's really no defensible reason to try and apply it to this case. And, given the way things have gone so far, probably no practical reason either.

[livendive 8]

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These people turned their backs on this country and went over to the other side that is at war with the US.
They are enemy combatants. They no longer fall under civil law or the Constitution. Nobody is tearing up the Constitution.

What is the exact line you believe they crossed that qualified them as being on "the other side" (whatever that is)? Did you feel the same about McVeigh & Nichols? And James Holmes?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[lawrocket 3]

It seems a couple of things can be gleaned:
(1) It was previously decided that a Miranda warning would not be given and a reasonn for not giving him the warning was found;
(2) The government is trying to do whatever it can to make the prosecution more difficult. "Hey, how can we increase the chance of an acquittal?" A: "Let's find ways to get around Constitutional protections and do a press release about it!"
(3) The government is scratching and clawing at Constitutional protections on the basis of "public safety." It's not just guns they're after,

I am deeply concerned about a number of things. The Bush doctrine of "find reasons not to recognize rights" has been expanded. The latest and most shocking are the statements regarding his status as a "citizen." The underlying logic is that citizens are given Constitutional rights and non-citizens are not, which is a frightening encroachment that is coming from somewhere and I assure you it is not the tea Party.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]What is the exact line you believe they crossed that qualified them as being on "the other side"

[ianmdrennan 2]

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[Reply]What is the exact line you believe they crossed that qualified them as being on "the other side"

The line is typically arbitrary. And interestingly, it's what the government is doing.

Whatever way can be found to deny due process will be explored and attempted.

I find it refreshing to see so many of us, regardless of political affiliations, agreeing on this topic. Seems to me that the majority, here at least, believe in due process and are against the idea of an 'enemy combatant' or at least (better stated) against the idea of stripping away rights and due process for ANY reason
Just an observation.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[rehmwa 2]

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I find it refreshing to see so many of us, regardless of political affiliations, agreeing on this topic. Seems to me that the majority, here at least, believe in due process and are against the idea of an 'enemy combatant' or at least (better stated) against the idea of stripping away rights and due process for ANY reason

glass half full for you to take heart with a 'majority'


I'm a bit outraged that we aren't 100% aligned in support of due process. Seems a no brainer and scary as can be that Congress doesn't understand law......

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[lawrocket 3]

I agree. Problem is that the People at this point have no choice and come 2014 and 2016 will also likely have little actual choice.

This whole "enemy combatant" thing had it's true genesis in the Bush Admin. It is now approaching its golden age.

Sadly - I'm also hearing on the news that there is criticism being made that the Russian government warned about one of these guys and the US checked up but cleared him. There is criticism that they should have dug deeper. PROBLEM: the Constitution limits what we can check up on.

The Constitution is under political attack in the name of public safety. The attack is being steadily intensified and it is the political leadership doing it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[DanG 1]

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The underlying logic is that citizens are given Constitutional rights and non-citizens are not, which is a frightening encroachment that is coming from somewhere and I assure you it is not the tea Party.

It's not coming from the Tea Party because there is no such party. It is, however, coming from the Republican Party.

- Dan G

[Andy9o8 0]

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The Constitution is under political attack in the name of public safety. The attack is being steadily intensified and it is the political leadership doing it.

I was discussing this with my parents yesterday. They were young adults during the McCarthy Era and "blacklisting" abuses of the 1950's; and to them, the parallels are striking.

This is why the study of history is important, folks, even for you hard science/tech geeks out there. Learn from it. It gives you "wisdom of experience" far beyond your years.

[Darius11 12]

Respect his rights that is what makes us who we are. If we say fuck it every time someone gets too emotional then we are no longer America

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[rehmwa 2]

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The underlying logic is that citizens are given Constitutional rights and non-citizens are not, which is a frightening encroachment that is coming from somewhere and I assure you it is not the tea Party.

It's not coming from the Tea Party because there is no such party. It is, however, coming from the Republican Party.

I am thankful every single day that the Democrats are perfect and selfless and never do anything just for PR effect and votes or to satiate an emotional public with impotent policy just to look good.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DanG 1]

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I am thankful every single day that the Democrats are perfect and selfless and never do anything just for PR effect and votes.

Quite a leap, Col. von Assumptions.

I was just pointing out that the it's the Republican that are, largely, on the wrong side of this one. The Democrats have their own hypocrisies. They're especially lax on unicorm regulation and rainbow registration.

- Dan G

[rickjump1 0]

McVeigh, a US Army veteran, and American citizen had no help from a foreign entity based overseas or on American soil. No doubt he murdered the innocent but, his primary target was employees of the US Government.

On the contrary, trying Jihadists in a civil court is just what islamic jihadists would like. There are billions of dollars in middle eastern banks on American soil available to "indefinitely" defend soldiers of allah. The muslim brotherhood or other "peaceful" muslims have their own lawyers. They would love to use our system against us in lawsuits and delays.

People need to understand that Boston was nothing less than the perfect battlefield for killing American taxpayers who fund the US military (children were an added bonus). These terrorists had been groomed by the world jihadist movement whether they received their training on the internet, local mosque or overseas. They thought of themselves as on a mission as soldiers for allah. They performed their primary mission, and were in the process of exploding more ieds when caught.

It is unlikely they will be tried by a military tribunal It was 24? hours before the President of the United States had the nerve to use the word terrorist or terrorism.

I still believe they gave up any rights under the United States Constitution when they went over to the"other side", the islamic terrorists/jihadists side. This is the side that is shifting the word wide jihadist movement to American soil.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.