Legitimate gun question [on topic]

[rushmc 18]

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I believe that the problem stems from the wording of the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment. There is some discussion as to whether it has one or three commas, but here is the version in the Library of Congress:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of
a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I think it is clear that the Founding Fathers intended that "the people" would, mostly, be organized into Militias. These would be local organizations--groups of people who would know each other. Perhaps we need to re-think the Second amendment or require that gun owners belong to them. That would help prevent mentally unstable persons from getting guns. Nothing, of course, could prevent gun violence entirely.

This is the US version of saying well it says this is how we must live in the Koran/Torah/Bible without taking in to account that it was written hundreds of years ago. Society changes

As written, the 2nd Amendment does not grant the right. The context was that it exists to begin with

It was written with the future in mind and still is applicable today

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Fast 0]

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Reminder to everyone -

This is an on topic discussion, and the topic is how to allow sane people to own guns while keeping guns out of the hands of the insane. Only posts on that topic are allowed. The following will be deleted:

-The usual attacks on Kallend (unless they specifically discuss something about the above topic)
-The usual attacks on Obama
-Discussions about meth
-"what the problem really is"
-"why do you want to ban guns?"

And all the other traditional devolutions of such arguments. People who post these things multiple times will be banned for a day to keep the discussion from devolving.

I was reading this then wondering if my previous post was on topic and in a sense it is to me. I think that a large part of the solution to keeping guns away from crazy people is a change in early education.

We need to teach people to cope with problems and fix the root of why we have so many crazy people. We also need to push people into more adverse situations when they are younger and less able to inflict wide scale harm. Finding out pre-teen that a person is predisposed to violence and anger as a problem solving tool allows for time to re-education in an attempt to fix the problem or remove that person from society.

In many cases it does boil down to the fact that some of these people need to be removed from society. There is such a focus these days on inclusion, caring and making sure that everything is perfect and good for everyone that we have failed to realize that some people don't belong in society. They belong in an institution receiving professional care. It's falling to the the criminal justice/prison system to deal with a lot of these people after they go off the deep end.

Short of making all guns illegal and then going door to door and collecting all the guns, the only practical way to keep them out of the hands of the mentally ill is to do a better job removing the mentally ill from the population or making sure that they are receiving the care that they need. Like all other things illegal their existence at all makes it possible and probable that an unstable person or criminal will find access should they choose to do so.

So I guess my point is that, the priority should be on identifying and ensuring care for people who have demonstrated that they are not going to be compatible with society and a big part of that is generations of inattentive and improper parenting building on top of one another.

So it's easy to say stay on topic, but the truth of the matter is in fact that we need less crazies running around because guns, knives, cars, bombs, whatever... the failure to identify and help these people is why they are getting their hands on guns in the first place.

That doesn't mean we should be running around asking people for their papers though. It needs to be done through education of parents and teachers and such of what to look for and when to know that someone should receive this kind of help or evaluation.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[rehmwa 2]

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Those assault rifles are their not for self defence but for defence of the nation, there is a very big difference.

I get that...So, if a Swiss man is getting attacked by someone, he needs to put that gun down and go get his army knife or a piece of chocolate for defense. I suspect they put a sticker on the rifles that states "only applicable in the event of invasion" too? that would help.

thanks for the clarification

(seriously, one might argue that defense of the children would be the ultimate form of defending a nation)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

The Swiss don't need to carry them in the first place, they live in a law abiding civilised society. But this isn't about the Swiss, lets keep it on topic. How do you stop crazy people from committing mass murder with firearms? You can attack the availability of firearms but why not try and improve access to mental health care and catch these people before the valve bursts in the first place.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[rehmwa 2]

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The Swiss don't need to carry them in the first place, they live in a law abiding civilised society. But this isn't about the Swiss, lets keep it on topic. How do you stop crazy people from committing mass murder with firearms? You can attack the availability of firearms but why not try and improve access to mental health care and catch these people before the valve bursts in the first place.

I think that's great and can address some, but not all of the problem.

however, the Swiss are a good example

"The Swiss don't need to carry them in the first place, they live in a law abiding civilized society."

seems that when the people are law abiding and civilized, then mass ownership of guns isn't an issue one way or the other, so everyone gets the option and possibly ownership is even expected - so how do we get a population that respects law and courtesy?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

Any suggestion on how the rest of the problems?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[rehmwa 2]

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Any suggestion on how the rest of the problems?

no more so than the rest of you - Mine philosophy is pretty much all about individuals getting to decide for themselves, so trying to make a blanket fix is antithetical to that. And just putting that philosophy out there doesn't help, people either agree or not - there's not really a 'discussion' to be had since it's foundational.

(edit: hey Skyrad - though we were going in an interesting discussion, apparently someone thought it was a digression. We can catch up, if you like on another thread about the Swiss situation being a potentially interesting model that seems to work better than many other countries.)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,647]

Mandatory background checks for ALL transfers. Both parties go to jail, no exceptions, for a violation.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[beowulf 1]

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Mandatory background checks for ALL transfers. Both parties go to jail, no exceptions, for a violation.

The logistics of that are very difficult. If no one reports the private sale transfer then how would anyone know to prosecute it?

[kallend 1,647]

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Mandatory background checks for ALL transfers. Both parties go to jail, no exceptions, for a violation.

The logistics of that are very difficult. If no one reports the private sale transfer then how would anyone know to prosecute it?

Transfer is recorded, in database. Gun checks required when you go to the range. No record, call police.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[beowulf 1]

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Mandatory background checks for ALL transfers. Both parties go to jail, no exceptions, for a violation.

The logistics of that are very difficult. If no one reports the private sale transfer then how would anyone know to prosecute it?

Transfer is recorded, in database. Gun checks required when you go to the range. No record, call police.

If no one reports the transfer then how will it get into the database? People will just avoid using gun ranges. Lots of people have private shooting ranges. Many people never shoot the guns they own.

[Fast 0]

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Mandatory background checks for ALL transfers. Both parties go to jail, no exceptions, for a violation.

The logistics of that are very difficult. If no one reports the private sale transfer then how would anyone know to prosecute it?

Transfer is recorded, in database. Gun checks required when you go to the range. No record, call police.

This doesn't solve the problem. Not counting the other mentioned issues with this. Consider an un-recorded transfer for the purpose of committing mass homicide. The person isn't going to a gun range, they are going down to the town square to throw down. Sure, it's another crime you can charge the person with if they don't kill themselves.

Both parties go to jail? You mean if the person doesn't check out? If you fail to record the transfer? This just isn't logical. It's hard to enforce and it has little gain.

Also, this is akin to "show me your papers" which isn't something that is ever going to go over well in our society. It's unreasonable search and seizure.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[lawrocket 3]

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Mandatory background checks for ALL transfers. Both parties go to jail, no exceptions, for a violation.

That would be a nice bit of symbolism that may yield a few spectacular results. But if background checks were like magnets then dangerous people would be like metals. You'll pick up a few, but there is a lot of copper, aluminum, tin that will get by...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rushmc 18]

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Mandatory background checks for ALL transfers. Both parties go to jail, no exceptions, for a violation.

The logistics of that are very difficult. If no one reports the private sale transfer then how would anyone know to prosecute it?

Transfer is recorded, in database. Gun checks required when you go to the range. No record, call police.

I have not been to a range is 20 years

And i shoot 6 to 10 times a year

Besides

Most ranges do not have 300 yard plus areas this I like

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[bigbearfng 16]

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Mandatory background checks for ALL transfers. Both parties go to jail, no exceptions, for a violation.

Still not a fix.....
See my post above about the background checks-due to HIPAA privacy laws you can't check for mental health records unless the 5150 was written by a LEO.

[lawrocket 3]

Yes. Correct.

Again, those pesky individual rights interfering with society.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[dthames 0]

It does not require a gun to do crazy (deadly) things.

The gun is just a visable extension of the person's desire to do harm, in the cases that you mention.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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One of the things that bothers me about the “mandatory background checks” arguments is that it’s essentially 50% un-enforceable.

It's no less enforceable than other gun laws.

The best you can do is control the behavior of otherwise law abiding people.

Require background checks on all transfers and law abiding people will do them because it's sensible, out of duty, or out of paranoia. Exempt private sellers from civil liability claims if they transfer to a criminal who passed the background check and you'll get more takers who prefer the practicality of insurance over the theoretical benefits of reducing government information on owners. The government could keep an encrypted receipt which the seller could decrypt if needed.

It's no different than the other gun laws. A little extra cutting on a vertical mill and one extra hole makes a machine gun instead of a semi-auto. Law abiding people don't do it because they choose not to commit criminal acts.

[wmw999 2,146]

Yes, a gun makes it easier. Just as a car makes it easier for a drunk person to kill someone.

Maybe we should allow drunk people to drive cars, since, after all, most of them don't kill anyone.

A gun makes it easy and clean to do something really big about your anger against someone else. Yes, you can use a knife, club, or anything else, but you're much more likely to get dirty or hurt doing it -- those are disincentives to people who aren't quite as serious.

There is no amount of security that makes our houses impregnable to the truly determined, and there are no gun restrictions that make guns illegally unavailable to the truly determined. However, most of us still have locks on our doors, and some of us even have bars on the windows, burglar alarms and guns for defense as well.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Skyrad 0]

Something Wolfriverjoe pointed out got me thinking. All of these school shootings were carried out by people of school age. So why are we looking at the entire firearm owning populous when the problem is mentally unstable teenagers?
This being the case then maybe the affordable solution is easy free access to mental healthcare for school and college kids. After all surely the teachers know who in their class is socially excluded and warped.
Restricting unsupervised access to firearms for people under 20 might be more useful than banning 30 round mags.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kallend 1,647]

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Mandatory background checks for ALL transfers. Both parties go to jail, no exceptions, for a violation.

That would be a nice bit of symbolism that may yield a few spectacular results. But if background checks were like magnets then dangerous people would be like metals. You'll pick up a few, but there is a lot of copper, aluminum, tin that will get by...

Didn't claim it was a complete solution. Just something that took all of 3 seconds to think up.

I truly believe that people of good will with expertise in law enforcement, firearms, database management and constitutional law can come up with a workable process to make it much more difficult for undesirables to obtain firearms. Continued knee-jerk opposition from the gun lobby is just unhelpful.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,647]

Let's not confuse determined, career criminals with access to a machine shop with mentally ill people who have easy access to guns because our laws are so sloppy, piecemeal and inadequately enforced.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[blueblur 0]

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Let's not confuse determined, career criminals with access to a machine shop with mentally ill people who have easy access to guns because our laws are so sloppy, piecemeal and inadequately enforced.

But in this latest incident, the laws worked. Lanza tried to buy a rifle and was denied, so he went to his legal-firearm-owning mother, stole them and shot her. The greater problem is know one addressed the signs if they saw them at all. I wouldn't call stealing a gun easy access. Not like it's in the checkout line of Wal-mart next to the Snicker's bars...

In every man's life he will be allotted one good woman and one good dog. That's all you get, so appreciate them while the time you have with them lasts.

- RiggerLee

[kallend 1,647]

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Let's not confuse determined, career criminals with access to a machine shop with mentally ill people who have easy access to guns because our laws are so sloppy, piecemeal and inadequately enforced.

But in this latest incident, the laws worked. Lanza tried to buy a rifle and was denied, so he went to his legal-firearm-owning mother, stole them and shot her. The greater problem is know one addressed the signs if they saw them at all. I wouldn't call stealing a gun easy access. Not like it's in the checkout line of Wal-mart next to the Snicker's bars...

How do you know he "STOLE" them? She may have granted him access. After all, she did take him to the range with her.

The whole STOLE bit is just a convenient excuse to make the gun lobby feel better.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Andy9o8 0]

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free access to mental healthcare for school and college kids.

Extremely unlikely in the US, for reasons that are beyond the scope of "on topic".