Legitimate gun question [on topic]

[beowulf 1]

Quote

Quote

The goal is to get the guns out of the hands of criminals . . .

No. The goal is to get them out of the hands of crazy people and limit the amount of death a crazy person can cause with one if he gets his hands on it. You do that by making them harder for the crazy people to get ahold of to begin with and limiting the amount of destruction a weapon can do over time.

And what you are proposing won't make them harder to get. Black markets won't require back ground checks. Even if it were harder to get it would not stop anyone determined to get them. it won't limit anything regarding the destructiveness of the weapon. Black market won't care how powerful the ammo is.

[winsor 186]

Quote

This is a serous question - so I please ask you not turn this into an insult match. There have been multiple mass shootings this year. Even if people had been armed - like say a schoolteacher - the gunman would still probably have killed 15 kids before he was killed.

Practically all of them shot themselves - they clearly went into these massacres expecting to die.

I live in Texas and practically everyone I know is really well armed. Many/most of those guns have been gotten from friends or on places like Craigslist and such where no background checks or anything else were required.

I don't have a theoretical problem with people owning all these guns - but I do want a way to keep the weapons out of the hands of crazy folks. Background checks are at least a start but tons of people are really anti required background checks

Having more people armed may halve the number of people the nut jobs can kill, but it seems like the far better plan is to keep weapons out of the hands of the crazy people. And the crazy people go into these mass murder situations expecting to die so fear of being shot isn't much motivation

So my question is - how can we let regular folks own their guns - while keeping them out of the hands of the crazy people? I'm really interested in legitimate ideas. My Texas friends tend to be anti-background check and stuff like that - and they would pass because I don't think any of them would go nuts.

I am really interested in legitimate ideas and in keeping this a civilized thread and discussion. I see both sides. I understand that rapid fire weapons can be fun to play with, but I also don't anyone think legitimately needs them. I would like to see the best of both worlds - there is such a crazy amount of guns in thsi country that banning them now wouldn't make a dent for a hundred years. That's not the solution. But there has to be some way of stopping the crazies.

I think that greatly improving mental health care in this country would help. But beyond that?

This article addresses many of these concerns.

[quade 3]

Quote

Quote

Quote

The goal is to get the guns out of the hands of criminals . . .

No. The goal is to get them out of the hands of crazy people and limit the amount of death a crazy person can cause with one if he gets his hands on it. You do that by making them harder for the crazy people to get ahold of to begin with and limiting the amount of destruction a weapon can do over time.

And what you are proposing won't make them harder to get. Black markets won't require back ground checks. Even if it were harder to get it would stop anyone determined to get them. it won't limit anything regarding the destructiveness of the weapon. Black market won't care how powerful the ammo is.

And what you're suggesting is doing . . . nothing.

Or, did you have something to contribute?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[beowulf 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

The goal is to get the guns out of the hands of criminals . . .

No. The goal is to get them out of the hands of crazy people and limit the amount of death a crazy person can cause with one if he gets his hands on it. You do that by making them harder for the crazy people to get ahold of to begin with and limiting the amount of destruction a weapon can do over time.

And what you are proposing won't make them harder to get. Black markets won't require back ground checks. Even if it were harder to get it would stop anyone determined to get them. it won't limit anything regarding the destructiveness of the weapon. Black market won't care how powerful the ammo is.

And what you're suggesting is doing . . . nothing.

Or, did you have something to contribute?

So you think doing something that won't work is better then nothing????


Here was my suggestions. You must not have read them.

I think the only real solution is to allow CHL holders to carry in schools, some teachers will be among them. It will be those that feel they have what it takes to be responsible CHL holders. Posting armed security in the form of paid security guards or LEO at all schools.

"Gun Free Zones" are the targets of these crazies. End them, they are just free fire zones for crazy people.

[beowulf 1]

Does no one remember how Prohibition went?? It boosted organized crime like nothing else ever did before that. Banning semi auto weapons isn't a solution. It will only make things worse. There are just way too many of them in circulation right now.

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

Maybe we could do something about the 1/3 of states that don't report mental health information to the instant check system.

Have you read any critiques of DSM V/5? Relying on psychiatrists to make this decision is laughable.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

Quote

Automatic weapons may be hard to get...

Are you aware that it's not possible to buy automatic weapons from a FFL in the US?

We are all engines of karma

[beowulf 1]

For a modern example just look at the "War on Drugs". It hasn't made illegal drugs harder to get. Instead it has wasted billions of dollars, incarcerated millions and killed millions. That is what banning something does!!! It doesn't get rid of it.

[beowulf 1]

Quote

Quote

Automatic weapons may be hard to get...

Are you aware that it's not possible to buy automatic weapons from FFL in the US?

Sure you can from a Class 3 FFL. They are really expensive and you have to pay a fee to the ATF and go through some special paper work and back ground check. I think there has only been like one or two crimes committed by a legal owner of a full auto weapon with said weapon since this went into effect and it's been that way for a long time. Not sure how long.

[StreetScooby 5]

Thank you for the feedback. Just learned something.

We are all engines of karma

[beowulf 1]

No problem.
Do a search for Class 3 firearms. A full auto Thompson runs about $15,000 to $20,000

[quade 3]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Automatic weapons may be hard to get...

Are you aware that it's not possible to buy automatic weapons from FFL in the US?

Sure you can from a Class 3 FFL. They are really expensive and you have to pay a fee to the ATF and go through some special paper work and back ground check. I think there has only been like one or two crimes committed by a legal owner of a full auto weapon with said weapon since this went into effect and it's been that way for a long time. Not sure how long.

So, what you're saying is...stricter gun regulation on weapons with high kinetic potential per minute works.

Think about it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[beowulf 1]

Criminals can buy them cheaper and they are not unavailable.

Also there are millions more semi auto weapons in private hands in the US so the inventory is much bigger and a black market for them would be much larger. The only think your added gun control would do is criminalize more people.

[beowulf 1]

Mexico has much stricter gun laws and yet the cartels have no trouble getting guns.

[quade 3]

Using another country as a comparison isn't relevant. I could just as easily point out dozens of countries where gun control works quite effectively.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Bolas 5]

The biggest issue facing our country is a lack of focus. How can we expect to accomplish anything when we can't keep focus on anything?

:We've become a society of the most recent thing becoming all consuming until the next thing.

Examples:
Obamacare
Hurricane Sandy
The Fiscal Cliff
The Drug War
The Middle East
Afghanistan
School shootings

While one could blame the media and politicians for this, the real blame lies with all of us for putting up with it. Is what happened tragic? Yes. It it statistically significant enough to be used to change laws/policy? No.

Of course, all this will be moot after the next politically and media overpublicised tragedy.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[beowulf 1]

You are right on that. The difference is the culture and like it or not we have a huge gun culture here in the US and it's been that way since the beginning.

[beowulf 1]

Quote

The biggest issue facing our country is a lack of focus. How can we expect to accomplish anything when we can't keep focus on anything?

:We've become a society of the most recent thing becoming all consuming until the next thing.

Examples:
Obamacare
Hurricane Sandy
The Fiscal Cliff
The Drug War
The Middle East
Afghanistan
School shootings

While one could blame the media and politicians for this, the real blame lies with all of us for putting up with it. Is what happened tragic? Yes. It it statistically significant enough to be used to change laws/policy? No.

Of course, all this will be moot after the next politically and media overpublicised tragedy.

Yeah I can agree with you. The Democrats want to take advantage of this tragedy to push their agenda.

[rhaig 0]

Almost all of the discussion I have heard on this topic is around eliminating the access to guns by people with a mental disorder. To me that seems like treating the symptom, not the root cause.

We glorify violence to such a degree, that people with a mental disorder think it's a way to get their 15min of fame while they suicide by cop (or their own weapon). The acceptability of violence is part of the problem.

The AWB is not the answer. A small percentage of murders are committed with rifles. The AWB as it was written and has been proposed, does not address but a small percentage of those rifles even. Look at our rates of murder by beating, or stabbing, or "other weapon". All are higher than murder (this goes back to the glorification of violence).

Mental health care. We don't have any anymore. Not really. But discussing mental health isn't as politically charged as discussing gun bans. So nobody talks about it.

In my way of thinking, glorification of violence, and the lack of mental health care are the two major factors.

Putting limits on the general public because of our neglect of a subset of that public is wrong on a few different levels. Mainly the fact that it means continued neglect on the subset of the public that needs help.


And really... don't bother talking about wanting to allow hunting. The second amendment has nothing to do with hunting.

--
Rob

[rhaig 0]

Quote

Quote

Banning something does not make it go away. Just look at illegal drugs.

It does, however, prevent it from being sold openly at Walmart, which is not nothing.

Lemme ask you something, how much meth do you have in your house right now? I assume none.

So drive the sales of these banned guns into the dark where there will be no regulation, no background check, nothing but an exchange of cash. That's what you're proposing then.

--
Rob

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Yeah I can agree with you. The Democrats want to take advantage of this tragedy to push their agenda.

All sides are doing it. I've yet to hear someone decline to comment out of respect for those lost.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[beowulf 1]

Quote

Quote

Yeah I can agree with you. The Democrats want to take advantage of this tragedy to push their agenda.

All sides are doing it. I've yet to hear someone decline to comment out of respect for those lost.

Everyone wants to fix the problem. But the problem is what the D's are proposing doesn't fix the problem or even contribute to fixing the problem. The problem is schools are vulnerable to crazy gunman. I can't think of any way to eliminate crazy people who want to kill others from the world or any realistic way to keep guns out of their hands. So a proactive defense is what I think is the best solution.

[devildog 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Automatic weapons may be hard to get...

Are you aware that it's not possible to buy automatic weapons from FFL in the US?

Sure you can from a Class 3 FFL. They are really expensive and you have to pay a fee to the ATF and go through some special paper work and back ground check. I think there has only been like one or two crimes committed by a legal owner of a full auto weapon with said weapon since this went into effect and it's been that way for a long time. Not sure how long.

You can also buy full auto if they are on the Curio and Relic list too. No need for a Class III at that point.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[OHCHUTE 0]

There's very few gun getting through airport security.
I wonder why? OH, someone is controlling access to the terminal building. Same can be done at a school. The idea of arming a few teachers is dumb. By the time the armed teacher would get clear across the school to the room where the shooting was, 20 kids would be dead. All teachers would need to be armed. Got to keep the perp out. I mentioned this in another thread: kill everyone on death row, and then reposition those guards at schools. Guys on death row have more protection than elementary schools!

[beowulf 1]

Quote

There's very few gun getting through airport security.
I wonder why? OH, someone is controlling access to the terminal building. Same can be done at a school. The idea of arming a few teachers is dumb. By the time the armed teacher would get clear across the school to the room where the shooting was, 20 kids would be dead. All teachers would need to be armed. Got to keep the perp out. I mentioned this in another thread: kill everyone on death row, and then reposition those guards at schools. Guys on death row have more protection than elementary schools!

I don't think airport type security is really possible in every single school. Armed teachers would minimize fatalities. I also suggested having armed security guards/LEO's.

I read about a school here in Texas that did arm their teachers. Not that dumb of an idea in my opinion.