Legitimate gun question [on topic]

[rushmc 18]

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Also we could up the number of convicted felons prosecuted for attempting to buy guns. In a two year period 27,000 felons failed the NICS check for purchasing a firearm in Pennsylvania. They were felons, checked the box that indicated they weren't felons, then signed the line that indicates that they acknowledge that lying on the form is against the law. You'd think that the trial for this would last about 5 minutes and have a 100% conviction rate.

They managed to get 423 convictions. A whopping 1.5% conviction rate.

this is a radical idea - actually enforce existing laws on the books. Great point.

Actually, I mean this is a great example that when people say "enforce the existing laws" that it's not just a bumper sticker quote. It's really true.

And as previously posted on this site, gun violations prosecuted are down 40% under the Obama admin compared to the Bush admin.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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27,000 felons failed

They managed to get 423 convictions. A whopping 1.5% conviction rate.

And as previously posted on this site, gun violations prosecuted are down 40% under the Obama admin compared to the Bush admin.

So this is really a non-starter to me. Do the math:

Obama period - 423 convictions out of 27,000 violations - 1.56%
Bush period - So he'd get then about 705 convictions? - that's a whopping 2.61% so what? it's slightly less closer to zero than the other guy?

Point 1 - those that tried and failed: regardless - both time periods are a huge fail. Both time periods still illustrate the point that convicted felons demonstrate obtuse attempts to buy illegally and then they aren't held responsible and left to go obtain weapons in ways we don't have visibility to.....

Point 2 - those that tried and succeeded: my question - how many convicted felons 'beyond' that 27,000 slipped through the cracks and succeeded. If they'd have known they'd be put back in jail for this (better than 2 or 3% conviction rate), how many of them wouldn't have tried at all?


keeping guns from "potentially" crazy people is rife with potential for abuse and denying rights from decent citizens of good character.

But convicted felons - there is not "potential" there - their status is proven and known. this area should be a slam dunk.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 18]

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27,000 felons failed

They managed to get 423 convictions. A whopping 1.5% conviction rate.

And as previously posted on this site, gun violations prosecuted are down 40% under the Obama admin compared to the Bush admin.

So this is really a non-starter to me. Do the math:

Obama period - 423 convictions out of 27,000 violations - 1.56%
Bush period - So he'd get then about 705 convictions? - that's a whopping 2.61% so what? it's slightly less closer to zero than the other guy?

regardless - both time periods are a huge fail. Both time periods still illustrate the point that convicted felons demonstrate obtuse attempts to buy illegally and then they aren't held responsible and left to go obtain weapons in ways we don't have visibility to.....

my question - how many convicted felons 'beyond' that 27,000 slipped through the cracks and succeeded. If they'd have known they'd be put back in jail for this (better than 2 or 3% conviction rate), how many of them wouldn't have tried at all?

Your question may be answered when one looks at the number of gun crimes commited with illegally purchased guns

I dont know of any lately

If you do please let me know

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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Your question may be answered when one looks at the number of gun crimes committed with illegally purchased guns

I dont know of any lately

If you do please let me know

that's a tangent to my comment. Black market purchase and stolen weapons are completely outside my post and aren't going to be stopped by legislation. It's a good topic of discussion, but not where I was going. The stupid criminal gets caught and jailed (but better than 2-3% of the time). the persistent criminal goes the next step to find that weapon - but he'd do it anyway. At least we thinned the herd.

I don't know what a "gun crime" is. I suspect that there are many 'crimes' that are sometimes committed with guns, and sometimes committed without - but a crime is an act, not an object. IMHO - anyone that tries to criminalize an object, or a thought, really doesn't understand what responsibility means.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 18]

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I don't know what a "gun crime" is. I suspect that there are many 'crimes' that are sometimes committed with guns, and sometimes committed without - but a crime is an act, not an object.

You mentioned that fellons were trying to buy guns and you wondered how many slipped through or by the process

That is what my comment was toward

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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You mentioned that fellons were trying to buy guns and you wondered how many slipped through or by the process

thanks for the clarification - I think that would be a tough inference no matter how you tried to analyze it

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rushmc 18]

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You mentioned that fellons were trying to buy guns and you wondered how many slipped through or by the process

thanks for the clarification - I think that would be a tough inference no matter how you tried to analyze it

Maybe

I have a first hand account of a fellon trying to buy a gun from a FFL business owner friend of mine

The fellon did not have a permit to purchase so the FFL ran him through NICS. He failed that check and got no gun

But FFL friend of mine recieved numerous phone calls following from the Feds and local police asking about the attempted purchase

I dont know what happened after that

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[skypuppy 1]

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There's very few gun getting through airport security.
I wonder why? OH, someone is controlling access to the terminal building. Same can be done at a school. The idea of arming a few teachers is dumb. By the time the armed teacher would get clear across the school to the room where the shooting was, 20 kids would be dead. All teachers would need to be armed. Got to keep the perp out. I mentioned this in another thread: kill everyone on death row, and then reposition those guards at schools. Guys on death row have more protection than elementary schools!

I don't think airport type security is really possible in every single school. Armed teachers would minimize fatalities. I also suggested having armed security guards/LEO's.

I read about a school here in Texas that did arm their teachers. Not that dumb of an idea in my opinion.

Schools could control access/entry points waaaaay better than they do. Doesn't have to have as much security as airport but an armed guarde near the door might help. Arming a few teachers, and not the door is a dumb idea. Why, by the time the armed teach got to the classroom where the shoot was kids would already be dead. Look at Giffords shooting case in AZ. Joe Zamudio who was carrying a gun, heard shots from afar yet couldn't get there in time to do any good.
Arming teachers is not as good as controlling access to the school grounds or building. I'm much rather sit in a class knowing the building was secured, not knowing a teacher had a gun on the second floor, and a 100 yards from where I was sitting where the door was wide open.

While it may be a good idea to put better locks on the doors, I still a shooter would just show up before school opens or when it ends, and hundreds of students are milling about in front of or coming out of the doors. In fact they're packed so close together he'd probably have more casualties than bullets fired. Don't think that locking doors is the whole answer. Still need someone to stop him when he starts up.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[lawrocket 3]

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how can we let regular folks own their guns - while keeping them out of the hands of the crazy people

We can’t. You’ve described the number of people who get guns through person-to-person sales and exchanges. This system has been set up and is flourishing. It’s a grey market.

What happens when this is banned is that it becomes a black market. How the black market will price these will depend upon the structure (black market cigarettes, for example, can be less expensive than legal cigarettes because they don’t charge state taxes).

We have been utterly unable to eliminate black markets. The drug trade. Prostitution. Cigarettes. Alcohol. Software. Shoes. We’ve got black markets for incandescent light bulbs. For high-flow toilets. For Freon.

And there is a black market for guns.

We have not been able to stop prostitution or the drug trade or even incandescent light bulbs. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rushmc 18]

Here is what is happening in the markets today

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Firearms Supplier Sells More Than Three Years Worth Of Magazines In Just Three Days

http://cnsnews.com/blog/gregory-gwyn-williams-jr/firearms-supplier-sells-more-three-years-worth-magazines-just-three

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

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Here is what is happening in the markets today

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Firearms Supplier Sells More Than Three Years Worth Of Magazines In Just Three Days

http://cnsnews.com/blog/gregory-gwyn-williams-jr/firearms-supplier-sells-more-three-years-worth-magazines-just-three

Yep. There are people that think that these items will be banned so they are buying them now (kinda like Twinkies - they would be scarce so people are buying them up).

There are also those who see things like this and decide, "I should be ready to defend myself."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rushmc 18]

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Here is what is happening in the markets today

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Firearms Supplier Sells More Than Three Years Worth Of Magazines In Just Three Days

http://cnsnews.com/blog/gregory-gwyn-williams-jr/firearms-supplier-sells-more-three-years-worth-magazines-just-three

Yep. There are people that think that these items will be banned so they are buying them now (kinda like Twinkies - they would be scarce so people are buying them up).

There are also those who see things like this and decide, "I should be ready to defend myself."

I purchased some magazines the Friday of the murders cause I knew this was coming

Also, most common ammunitions are sold out at all sales sights

BTW

The magazines I purchased have tripled in price already. And I do not even have a gun they will fit in

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,141]

I think it is unfortunate that the question is what can we do about guns to prevent mass shootings. I think guns are only part of the equasion. To me the issues are:

*Lack of affordable and available mental health care.
*Quickness of prescribing pills.
*Extreme difficulty in having those you are responsible for committed.
*Stigma associated with Mental Health issues.
*Availability of firearms and type of firearms.
*Societal acceptance of guns and violence.
*Desensitization towards violence.
*Societal move towards less in-person socialization.

I don't think you can point the finger at just one root cause, which to me also means you cannot look for a solution in only one category.

The fact that very few to no mass shootings have taken place with fully automatic weapons shows that restricting access does have an effect. I also believe that (over time) banning large capacity magazines can have an effect on severity of these mass shootings. Unfortunately, I don't think banning anything larger than 10 would make a difference. I think you have to go smaller than that.

In the end you have to address all issues if you really want to try and prevent the majority of these mass shootings from taking place.

As a side note, and this is really a rhetorical question, but I really wonder what the response of the founding fathers would have been to Newtown, CT.

[rushmc 18]

As a side note, and this is really a rhetorical question, but I really wonder what the response of the founding fathers would have been to Newtown, CT.

[SkyDekker 1,141]

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If a people of their mentality was still running the country today, I doubt it would have happened to begin with

And I thought no solution has a 100% succes rate...

[rushmc 18]

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If a people of their mentality was still running the country today, I doubt it would have happened to begin with

And I thought no solution has a 100% succes rate...

I figured a rhetorical question could use a rhetorical answer

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Fast 0]

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While it may be a good idea to put better locks on the doors, I still a shooter would just show up before school opens or when it ends, and hundreds of students are milling about in front of or coming out of the doors. In fact they're packed so close together he'd probably have more casualties than bullets fired. Don't think that locking doors is the whole answer. Still need someone to stop him when he starts up.

I'm glad that this concept showed up here.

The problem that I have with this round of gun control argument is that it doesn't address the real problem. Our society is fundamentally flawed. We have gotten to a point where people are with more frequency deciding that these types of things are the solution.

The problem is with what's important to our society. Success is measured by fame and fortune. There is very little emphasis left in society for choosing to do what is honorable and moral. People frequently choose the less "right" action because it will garner more money or more notoriety.

I personally feel that we need to emphasis consequences for actions. Children grow up now with so much one sided positive reinforcement that they never learn that life has downsides. When presented with this situation later in life they don't know how to deal with it. They act in a manner that will garner them what they want without care for others or any fear of consequences.

We have become dependent on reactionary laws that are meant to punish people who don't do what's "right" but we aren't doing a good job teaching people ahead of time what that really is. In any game, there should be a winner and a loser and that's ok. We dont' do a great job teaching that concept anymore.

I read an article some time ago when airport security was all the rage in the media. It was talking about the fact that at most major airports in the US you can be almost as effective of a terrorist by bombing the line to get through security. (Running kids over outside the school with a car). Taking guns out of someone's hand won't stop them from doing crazy stuff. It won't stop serial killers. It won't stop criminals.

That to me is the problem with additional gun control laws. It's a band-aid on a much greater problem that is getting worse and worse. How many kid's committed suicide this year because they were bullied? This all comes down to people not being taught to take personal responsibility for their actions and understanding true consequences.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[rushmc 18]

I would also ask that you notice, in the Profs view of the 2nd Amendment, that the right to arms is not granted, but rather, is assumed to exist to begin with

That context is very clear

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[riggerrob 558]

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Automatic weapons may be hard to get - but as far as I understand it semi-automatic weapons can still have really large capacities but just require pulling the trigger in between shots.
I'm not super familiar with these - but could a shooter still not get several rounds a second off? I'm not sure but I would think that outside of a war zone that a semi-automatic could cause [ALMOST] as much damage as an automatic. Magazine capacity seems more important

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Good points.

Your thoughts pararllel Canadian gun laws, where it is easy to buy guns with magazines that hold less than ten bullets., however, most larger magazines are "restricted" or "prohibited" and all belt-fed (fully-automatic) machine-guns are definitely "prohibited" for civilians.

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[lawrocket 3]

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As a side note, and this is really a rhetorical question, but I really wonder what the response of the founding fathers would have been to Newtown, CT.

If a people of their mentality was still running the country today, I doubt it would have happened to begin with

[billvon 2,427]

Reminder to everyone -

This is an on topic discussion, and the topic is how to allow sane people to own guns while keeping guns out of the hands of the insane. Only posts on that topic are allowed. The following will be deleted:

-The usual attacks on Kallend (unless they specifically discuss something about the above topic)
-The usual attacks on Obama
-Discussions about meth
-"what the problem really is"
-"why do you want to ban guns?"

And all the other traditional devolutions of such arguments. People who post these things multiple times will be banned for a day to keep the discussion from devolving.

[bigbearfng 16]

Lots of good food for thought in this thread.
Of course our idiot knee jerk politicians wouldn't be able to think of any common sense ideas.

One other "food for thought" clarified. (And this is applicable to several crazies shooting incidents)

When you fill out the form to purchase a firearm it is basically on your honor when asked if you're addicted to drugs or have a mental health history.
If a person is taken 5150 by LEO then it is in the checkable system along with criminal history.
(5150 is CA H&S code for a 72 hr psych hold.)
However a 5150 by mental health or an MD is not checkable at all.
Thank HIPAA for this......
So several of the recent nutters would never have been able to buy those weapons if a real background check had been able to be performed.
Now as to a central record of "nutters" so to speak ever becoming a possibility in our current politically correct privacy advocates society...........

[rhaig 0]

I was speaking with our school principal this morning. She mentioned that all the building security won't stop the phoned in bomb threat that empties the building. Then the crazy drives his car through the crowd and/or gets out and starts shooting.

--
Rob

[Skyrad 0]

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Your ideas sound reasonable to me - but as someone pointed out we do want to allow hunting.

Its interesting to note that outside of the USA in first world countries that allow firearm ownership its for the purpose of either hunting or target shooting not self defence. Protection of society is seen as the job of the police. Even before the handgun ban in the UK you couldn't carry or own for self defence.

Switzerland comes to mind as being directly against that.

Not at all. In Switerland men are armed because they are in the millitary reserve and part of the Army it is the Army's job to defend the nation. Those assault rifles are their not for self defence but for defence of the nation, there is a very big difference.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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I believe that the problem stems from the wording of the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment. There is some discussion as to whether it has one or three commas, but here is the version in the Library of Congress:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of
a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I think it is clear that the Founding Fathers intended that "the people" would, mostly, be organized into Militias. These would be local organizations--groups of people who would know each other. Perhaps we need to re-think the Second amendment or require that gun owners belong to them. That would help prevent mentally unstable persons from getting guns. Nothing, of course, could prevent gun violence entirely.

This is the US version of saying well it says this is how we must live in the Koran/Torah/Bible without taking in to account that it was written hundreds of years ago. Society changes

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca