Penn State football penalties

[billvon 2,400]

>a better atmosphere - that's fine - go for it, try to improve it. But it's not responsible
>for what people did.

Agreed. But it may result in the school having the same issue in the future. And you could arrest everyone responsible again. And it would happen again. Etc etc.

At some point you have to say "OK, this school isn't compatible with this kind of program."

[kelpdiver 2]

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Considering the protests that the students had when the University suspended Paterno from playing in a football game it is apparent to me at least that many of the current Penn State students are more concerned about football than they are about child molestation.

I would have felt more sympathetic for them if they didn't act like a bunch of asses.

They're kids - they don't know shit so of course they're going to act like asses. That's why they don't make the decisions. As they get older and more experienced (hopefully not directly) with death, molestation, rape, they'll get a better perspective.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I think, personally, it is fair to consider the lifetime of hurt that an economically crushing blow to the region would mean.

This is not a crushing blow to the region. Penn State has 7 or 8 football games a year which 105,000 people attend. Many schools have half that attendance, esp in smaller towns. I doubt it would drop below 80,000 ever with the faithful fans they have, who will view this as a lesson learned, a hardship to endure for the next 5-10 years. If people spend their money on other activities in the area, that's probably a benefit anyway in the form of a more diversified economy.

It is a crushing blow to the program, and a hefty blow to the athletic program. As well it should be.

[rehmwa 2]

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>a better atmosphere - that's fine - go for it, try to improve it. But it's not responsible
>for what people did.

Agreed. But it may result in the school having the same issue in the future. And you could arrest everyone responsible again. And it would happen again. Etc etc.

At some point you have to say "OK, this school isn't compatible with this kind of program."

close enough, I guess, for SC at least

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[brenthutch 383]

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>a better atmosphere - that's fine - go for it, try to improve it. But it's not responsible
>for what people did.

Agreed. But it may result in the school having the same issue in the future. And you could arrest everyone responsible again. And it would happen again. Etc etc.

At some point you have to say "OK, this school isn't compatible with this kind of program."

Yes, just like the victims of the resent shootings in Colorado fostered an environment which allowed this type of behavior. In other words they got what they deserved. Just like State College PA.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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...I'm not unsympathetic, either, to the surviving Paterno family. I love my father unequivocally, too. But the public statements they keep issuing at every juncture reveal their judgment to be so clouded by raw emotion that they come across as clueless and callous, and are doing everyone more harm than good, on multiple levels. They need to stop speaking out publicly.

Let them continue. They are making it very obvious why Sandusky was allowed (enabled) to continue his crimes as long as he was. The Paterno family is more concerned with Penn State football and Paterno's legacy than with the fact that one of the staff molested boys.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 2,400]

>Yes, just like the victims of the resent shootings in Colorado fostered an environment
>which allowed this type of behavior.

Uh, OK then . . . .

[tkhayes 126]

Why is a PRIVATE organization, like the NCAA being expected to vet the punishment for a criminal act? Why is law enforcement not going further to prosecute the higher-ups in the university that were part of the cover-ups?

NCAA is not a law enforcement agency - they are only out to protect their multi-billion dollar marketing and slave trade.

At least the civil courts will likely sue Penn State out of existence. This smells all too much of the Catholic church.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Why is a PRIVATE organization, like the NCAA being expected to vet the punishment for a criminal act?

It's not. NCAA private disciplinary actions, private civil lawsuits and government prosecutions are all separate, and they're not mutually exclusive.

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Why is law enforcement not going further to prosecute the higher-ups in the university that were part of the cover-ups?

They are (although the diligence is debatable). Thus far, 2 other Penn State officials have been criminally charged and are awaiting trial.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Appropriate? Too severe? Too lenient?

IMO when a college sports team becomes the tail that wags the dog, there's something seriously amiss.

Additional information coming out today from ESPN:

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If Penn State had not accepted the package of NCAA sanctions announced Monday, the Nittany Lions faced a historic death penalty of four years, university president Rodney Erickson told "Outside the Lines" on Wednesday afternoon.

In a separate interview, NCAA president Mark Emmert confirmed that a core group of NCAA school presidents had agreed early last week that an appropriate punishment was no Penn State football for four years.

The university effectively plea bargained to the imposed sanctions to avoid a full investigation and possibly greater penalties.

[brenthutch 383]

I am nor so worried about the Paterno family, what I am worried about is the small business person who has just mortgaged his or her house to add a few rooms to their motel in Altoona PA. They depend on the six or seven football weekends to stay afloat for the year. Ironically because they are further away from Penn State they will be hurt more than the hotels right in State College. If attendance drops from 110.000 to 80,000 those 30.000 fewer will opt to take the rooms right in town leaving the small towns outside State College to take the brunt of the pain. Yep small mom and pop businesses will take the punishment while the leadership of the university will still make just as much as ever, the board will still collect their paychecks, no staff will be laid off, and no programs will be cut. Penalties will be from a reduction in physical plant and further expansion of the university. In other words the blue collar working guy will get hurt, not the "institution" whatever the hell that means. It feels good to stick it to the high and mighty, but in the end the only people who suffer are the most vulnerable and most innocent. Sleep well.

[billvon 2,400]

>what I am worried about is the small business person who has just mortgaged his or
>her house to add a few rooms to their motel in Altoona PA

Agreed, that might be a problem. On the plus side, the widow who just spent her last cent on that hotel in Tuscaloosa might just avoid bankruptcy with the slightly heavier traffic she will see.

> It feels good to stick it to the high and mighty, but in the end the only people who
>suffer are the most vulnerable and most innocent.

Yep. Pedophiles can be bad for business, no doubt about that.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Sleep well.

Again: your anger is mis-directed.

[BillyVance 34]

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Appropriate? Too severe? Too lenient?

IMO when a college sports team becomes the tail that wags the dog, there's something seriously amiss.

The situation at Penn State was unprecedented. The Freeh report showed a lack of institutional control going all the way up to the president's office, or more accurately, a cover-up was perpetuated. When the scandal first broke shortly after JoPa's 409th and record-breaking win, JoPa pretty much indicted himself when he said he should have done more to rectify the problem when it was first reported - assistant coach catching Sandusky in the act in the showers. Although he did tell his superiors, he should have made sure his superiors would do the right thing, or he would himself. Neither happened. He was fired the very next day.

The damning thing is, though Penn State would have had to deal with the embarrassment of a revered defensive coordinator being accused of sex crimes, had they done the due diligence in the first place, having him arrested, investigated and thrown in prison, JoPa would still coach and rack up a couple more wins than he ended up with and Penn State would not be punished like they are now.

The fact he did nothing more, and continued his march on the wins record, and allowed Sandusky to continue his shenanigans, maybe not on campus anymore, I fully agree with the NCAA taking all those wins away. He ends up with 298 wins. He had the power and good name to speak out to make things right, and didn't go far enough.

All who participated in the cover-up - AD, asst AD, VP and P, etc... to protect Penn State's name, belong in prison. They let a pedophile continue to run free.

The school gets the punishment as an example. Yes, it sucks for the innocents. But you know what, the NCAA was waving a 4-year death sentence in their faces if they did not accept the sanctions quickly. Either way, they're fucked for years to come. The death sentence would definitely have killed most of the small businesses in the area that depend on the home games. As it is now, most of them will likely have to tighten their belts for the lean times. Yeah I know its not fair, but it is meant to be a lesson to all schools that doing the right thing is a much better alternative.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[kelpdiver 2]

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I am nor so worried about the Paterno family, what I am worried about is the small business person who has just mortgaged his or her house to add a few rooms to their motel in Altoona PA. They depend on the six or seven football weekends to stay afloat for the year.

Let's be real here. Cheap construction is $100/ft. Hotel room might be 250-300ft^2, so gotta be at least 25k/room. How much can you charge in PA where 7 nights remotely covers it.

[brenthutch 383]

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I am nor so worried about the Paterno family, what I am worried about is the small business person who has just mortgaged his or her house to add a few rooms to their motel in Altoona PA. They depend on the six or seven football weekends to stay afloat for the year.

Let's be real here. Cheap construction is $100/ft. Hotel room might be 250-300ft^2, so gotta be at least 25k/room. How much can you charge in PA where 7 nights remotely covers it.

7 weekends, two night min. $350 per night. you do the math.

[funjumper101 15]

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but how much joy does that team actually get out of it now? None...

I doubt there is any joy for Penn State's opponents, but I'm sure there is sorrow for the former Penn State players who have essentially had their college football careers taken away from them by this retroactive decision to vacate their wins. That seems very wrong to me.

You actually think that vacating the wins in the record books has actually took away the football careers of the players?

You are saying that magically, all of the practices and games never happened. The benefits and privleges accorded to the players during their college years magically went away. All of the sweat and effort vanished, with none of the lessons learned by the experience being retained, all because of the NCAA's actions against PSU.

Really?

Are their paychecks being recalled?
Oh, wait, these are amateur, as in unpaid, players.

Are the degrees they earned being taken away and all professional credentials earned with the degree being taken away?
Not the NCAA's area of enforcement.

Does a college football career matter in real life?
Not much, if at all.

What passes for critical thinking these days really isn't. Not at all.
Patently ridiculous bullshit, on the other hand, is really common these days.

[masterblaster72 0]

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IMO when a college sports team becomes the tail that wags the dog, there's something seriously amiss.

Agreed -- in my opinion these sanctions are far too lenient. More should be done to make an example and drive home the point that universities exist to educate, not to whore their massive stadiums, scoreboards and brands to "generate more revenue to allocate to academic research."

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[SivaGanesha 2]

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Are the degrees they earned being taken away and all professional credentials earned with the degree being taken away?

Not yet. But the same witchhunt mentality that led to the wins being taken away could just as easily lead to the degrees being taken away. I agree that such a decision would not be up to the NCAA--it would be up to the school. If one bureaucratic organization can take the wins away, what would prevent another bureaucratic organization from taking the degrees away? And losing a degree WILL have a real present day effect on anyone with a job that requires a degree.

Plus sometimes life isn't just about tangible practicalities. Sometimes one wants to be able to look back with pride on past successes...even when those successes have little impact on one's "real life". When you take that away from these ex players...they can no longer say honestly say, hey, I played on an Orange Bowl champion (for example). At that point something very intangible...but also very important...has been lost.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[kelpdiver 2]

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Are the degrees they earned being taken away and all professional credentials earned with the degree being taken away?

Not yet. But the same witchhunt mentality that led to the wins being taken away could just as easily lead to the degrees being taken away. I agree that such a decision would not be up to the NCAA--it would be up to the school. If one bureaucratic organization can take the wins away, what would prevent another bureaucratic organization from taking the degrees away? And losing a degree WILL have a real present day effect on anyone with a job that requires a degree.

Plus sometimes life isn't just about tangible practicalities. Sometimes one wants to be able to look back with pride on past successes...even when those successes have little impact on one's "real life". When you take that away from these ex players...they can no longer say honestly say, hey, I played on an Orange Bowl champion (for example). At that point something very intangible...but also very important...has been lost.

Let's be real on both points.

There is never a situation where academic degrees would be revoked by anyone because the ex coach within the team committed sin. When you put up such a hypothetical, you've jumped the shark.

None of the Penn State players are going to stop thinking they won a bowl game. Neither will their opponents. They didn't use an ineligible player.

Let's look at this from another perspective - while wins get vacation, individual player stats are not. Even in situations (competitive advantages via cheating) where they probably should be.

The players don't get punished, the program does.

[peregrinerose 0]

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I am nor so worried about the Paterno family, what I am worried about is the small business person who has just mortgaged his or her house to add a few rooms to their motel in Altoona PA. They depend on the six or seven football weekends to stay afloat for the year.

Let's be real here. Cheap construction is $100/ft. Hotel room might be 250-300ft^2, so gotta be at least 25k/room. How much can you charge in PA where 7 nights remotely covers it.

7 weekends, two night min. $350 per night. you do the math.

$350/night is insane. Very few hotels can charge that, unless they are the Ritz Carlton (that is what I paid for a night at the Ritz, actually).

Hutch, did you read the Freeh report? If not, you should. All 200+ pages. Blame for this goes all the way to the top, but it also goes all the way to the bottom. Those blue collar guys that you are defending? Well, at least two janitors (blue collar guys) witnessed abuse and chose to do nothing as well. Chances many more have similar experiences and did not come forward. Even the student culture, blind allegiance to PSU, particularly the 'do no wrong' aura around the coaching staff contributed to the cover up. What are the odds that no students or football players at least suspected issues? Nil.

Sandusky and all of those who covered for him caused this problem. They are the ones that your rage should be directed at. They caused this clusterfuck.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Andy9o8 0]

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at least two janitors (blue collar guys) witnessed abuse and chose to do nothing as well.

Maybe I'm being naive, but I'm inclined to give a pass to those janitors. Powerlessness plus fear of lifetime unemployment is a powerful straitjacket.

[peregrinerose 0]

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at least two janitors (blue collar guys) witnessed abuse and chose to do nothing as well.

Maybe I'm being naive, but I'm inclined to give a pass to those janitors. Powerlessness plus fear of lifetime unemployment is a powerful straitjacket.

I'm not inclined to give a pass to anyone. All it takes is a phone call to childline, which is anonymous, and years of abused children would never have happened.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Andy9o8 0]

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All it takes is a phone call to childline, which is anonymous,

I don't really dispute your point. Possibly folks like janitors living and working in rural areas (with all due respect to the sub-set of people) 10 or so years ago might not have had the sophistication to even know that a childline existed. So why didn't they just make an anonymous call to the cops? Maybe they figured that given the circumstances of how/where/when they saw what they saw, it could still be narrowed down to them (thus blowing their anonymity), and they'd be retaliated against. Anyhow, I ponder that more as an explanation than an excuse.

[brenthutch 383]

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I am nor so worried about the Paterno family, what I am worried about is the small business person who has just mortgaged his or her house to add a few rooms to their motel in Altoona PA. They depend on the six or seven football weekends to stay afloat for the year.

Let's be real here. Cheap construction is $100/ft. Hotel room might be 250-300ft^2, so gotta be at least 25k/room. How much can you charge in PA where 7 nights remotely covers it.

7 weekends, two night min. $350 per night. you do the math.

$350/night is insane. Very few hotels can charge that, unless they are the Ritz Carlton (that is what I paid for a night at the Ritz, actually).

Hutch, did you read the Freeh report? If not, you should. All 200+ pages. Blame for this goes all the way to the top, but it also goes all the way to the bottom. Those blue collar guys that you are defending? Well, at least two janitors (blue collar guys) witnessed abuse and chose to do nothing as well. Chances many more have similar experiences and did not come forward. Even the student culture, blind allegiance to PSU, particularly the 'do no wrong' aura around the coaching staff contributed to the cover up. What are the odds that no students or football players at least suspected issues? Nil.

Sandusky and all of those who covered for him caused this problem. They are the ones that your rage should be directed at. They caused this clusterfuck.

What about the hotel worker in Altoona who will lose her job this winter? The one who never went to a football game, because she was busy cleaning rooms 50 miles away to support her family? As far as Sandusky is concerned, may he rot in hell after a brief put painful visit to the general population of our penal system. Same with Schultz, Curley, and Spanier. It feels good to punish the “institution” but we all know the only ones who pay the price are the innocent.