peregrinerose 0 #76 July 31, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI am nor so worried about the Paterno family, what I am worried about is the small business person who has just mortgaged his or her house to add a few rooms to their motel in Altoona PA. They depend on the six or seven football weekends to stay afloat for the year. Let's be real here. Cheap construction is $100/ft. Hotel room might be 250-300ft^2, so gotta be at least 25k/room. How much can you charge in PA where 7 nights remotely covers it. 7 weekends, two night min. $350 per night. you do the math. $350/night is insane. Very few hotels can charge that, unless they are the Ritz Carlton (that is what I paid for a night at the Ritz, actually). Hutch, did you read the Freeh report? If not, you should. All 200+ pages. Blame for this goes all the way to the top, but it also goes all the way to the bottom. Those blue collar guys that you are defending? Well, at least two janitors (blue collar guys) witnessed abuse and chose to do nothing as well. Chances many more have similar experiences and did not come forward. Even the student culture, blind allegiance to PSU, particularly the 'do no wrong' aura around the coaching staff contributed to the cover up. What are the odds that no students or football players at least suspected issues? Nil. Sandusky and all of those who covered for him caused this problem. They are the ones that your rage should be directed at. They caused this clusterfuck. What about the hotel worker in Altoona who will lose her job this winter? The one who never went to a football game, because she was busy cleaning rooms 50 miles away to support her family? As far as Sandusky is concerned, may he rot in hell after a brief put painful visit to the general population of our penal system. Same with Schultz, Curley, and Spanier. It feels good to punish the “institution” but we all know the only ones who pay the price are the innocent. By your 'logic', a woman who commits a crime should not go to jail because her innocent children would pay part of the price. Everyone is effected by every decision, it is the rippling of the butterfly effect. Every person who supported PSU in some way, supported the cover up of pedophilia financially and contributed to the culture that made the football program beyond oversight and reproach (again, please read the Freeh report). Your hotel room cleaner is still going to have similar business as before. As you said, Altoona is 50 miles away. How many people actually stayed there for the handful of home PSU games? If 7 home game weekends employed her all year round, that is one lousy business model. Plenty of people will still be going to PSU... it's not going to be from a full house to zero attendees. There are still going to be plenty of people needing to go to PSU for various reasons. It is not going to destroy the economy in the region. Affect it a little, yes, destroy it, no. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SivaGanesha 2 #77 July 31, 2012 QuoteNone of the Penn State players are going to stop thinking they won a bowl game. Neither will their opponents. They didn't use an ineligible player. So who, specifically, WILL stop thinking that Penn State won a bowl game? If the answer is "no one"--then what is the point of vacating the wins in the first place?"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,123 #78 July 31, 2012 QuoteSo who, specifically, WILL stop thinking that Penn State won a bowl game? If the answer is "no one"--then what is the point of vacating the wins in the first plact? To get Paterno of the top of the records list. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #79 July 31, 2012 QuoteQuoteNone of the Penn State players are going to stop thinking they won a bowl game. Neither will their opponents. They didn't use an ineligible player. So who, specifically, WILL stop thinking that Penn State won a bowl game? If the answer is "no one"--then what is the point of vacating the wins in the first plact? Symbolism. It matters far far less than the money, the bowl ban, and the scholarship loss. The program can no longer claim league titles or wins, but the players and spectators don't really care. Like I said, all individual stats are still in the record books. Not sure how history will tell of Paterno's wins...I suspect he'll be the leader with an asterisk, the same way Barry Bonds is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #80 August 1, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteNone of the Penn State players are going to stop thinking they won a bowl game. Neither will their opponents. They didn't use an ineligible player. So who, specifically, WILL stop thinking that Penn State won a bowl game? If the answer is "no one"--then what is the point of vacating the wins in the first plact? Symbolism. It matters far far less than the money, the bowl ban, and the scholarship loss. The program can no longer claim league titles or wins, but the players and spectators don't really care. Like I said, all individual stats are still in the record books. Not sure how history will tell of Paterno's wins...I suspect he'll be the leader with an asterisk, the same way Barry Bonds is. The NCAA will list him with 298 wins, below Bowden, Robinson, Bryant, Warner and Stagg at the least. I remember reading he dropped to 8th, but I don't recall who the other coaches are."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #81 August 1, 2012 Quote The NCAA will list him with 298 wins, below Bowden, Robinson, Bryant, Warner and Stagg at the least. I remember reading he dropped to 8th, but I don't recall who the other coaches are. the NCAA will, but there a lots of others out there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #82 August 2, 2012 "Every person who supported PSU in some way, supported the cover up of pedophilia" You might want to think about this statement. You just might find you are implicating yourself as well. I will give you a little help. Per your logic (lol) anyone who purchased a pair of Nike shoes is complicit in pedophilia, because Nike supported the Football Program. "Your hotel room cleaner is still going to have similar business as before. As you said, Altoona is 50 miles away. How many people actually stayed there for the handful of home PSU games? If 7 home game weekends employed her all year round, that is one lousy business model." Oh yes more impeccable logic. Do you know that many retailers are only able to stay in business year round because of the money that is made during the Christmas shopping season? Same with small hotels and B&Bs, they depend on the revenue from football games to keep their doors open. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #83 August 2, 2012 Yes, Hutch, I did implicate myself. My money did help fund the cover up of pedophilia. It's sad, and I regret contributing to that culture of the almighty football team there (sent my son to football camp at PSU). Although very much on the periphery compared to some, I did indirectly contribute to the problem. At least I admit it. Retailers can sell more goods at Christmas than other times of the year. Hotels can only sell X number of rooms per weekend.. they can't just stock more goods like retail can. Seven weekends with marginally reduced business will not make a difference unless the business is not profitable to begin with. Remember that football games will still happen, people will still be there, and quite likely just as many as before... it is your logic that is off base there. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #84 August 3, 2012 It goes something like this: Football attendance drops from 105,000 to 95,000. That does not sound like a lot, so everyone will be OK. But let’s look a bit further. When those hotel rooms open up in State College they will be filled by folks who would have otherwise had to go to, Lake Raystown, Clearfield, Altoona, Louisburg, etc... Ironically those who are the furthest from State College will be disproportionately impacted. State College hotels will all still be sold out. The athletic centers at Penn State account for nearly a billion dollars of economic activity in the Centre region, even if this only drops by 10% that is still $100,000,000 of reduced economic activity. It is ok if you feel that this will have no impact, it is just not ok to think so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #85 August 3, 2012 How do you know football attendance will drop by that degree? People don't stay oustide State College due to geography alone, but also due to price being much lower outside State College, so factor that into your calculations. A ten percent hit in income is manageable for a finite period of time to any reasonably run business. Heck, my household income took a 10% hit this year due to both of us being broken. We still manage to pay the bills. There are 153,000 people in Centre County. A 1,000,000 drop in income is $6.50 per person. Will there be an impact, yes, will it be a staggeringly huge impact that is irrecoverable? Not by a very long shot. The good that is done with that money, the hit to PSU as a whole, and the message it sends to other colleges and businesses is well worth it, and that is the intent of the repercussions to begin with. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #86 August 3, 2012 QuoteIt goes something like this: Football attendance drops from 105,000 to 95,000. That does not sound like a lot, so everyone will be OK. But let’s look a bit further. When those hotel rooms open up in State College they will be filled by folks who would have otherwise had to go to, Lake Raystown, Clearfield, Altoona, Louisburg, etc... Ironically those who are the furthest from State College will be disproportionately impacted. the far away ones don't sound like ones that can charge $700 for a football weekend. But maybe Penn State can take care of these people as part of their responsibility for this mess. Bitch to them about how inconvenient the consequences are. BTW, you have yet to suggest an alternate course - do nothing doesn't qualify. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #87 August 3, 2012 just waiting for those hotel owners to sue the college for creating the loss in business...... ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #88 August 3, 2012 QuoteQuote The NCAA will list him with 298 wins, below Bowden, Robinson, Bryant, Warner and Stagg at the least. I remember reading he dropped to 8th, but I don't recall who the other coaches are. the NCAA will, but there a lots of others out there. Lots of others out there? Coaches? There are a handful with 300+, even 400+ across all divisions, including the NAIA. As for major college football, Bowden is now #1, Bear Bryant #2 and Paterno #3"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #89 August 3, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote The NCAA will list him with 298 wins, below Bowden, Robinson, Bryant, Warner and Stagg at the least. I remember reading he dropped to 8th, but I don't recall who the other coaches are. the NCAA will, but there a lots of others out there. Lots of others out there? Coaches? There are a handful with 300+, even 400+ across all divisions, including the NAIA. As for major college football, Bowden is now #1, Bear Bryant #2 and Paterno #3 espn and other football references can choose to leave him at the top with an asterick, at the bottom with a different asterisk, or just to print the NCAA official figure. My wondering aloud is which choice they will opt for in 10 or 30 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #90 August 4, 2012 Quote How do you know football attendance will drop by that degree? People don't stay oustide State College due to geography alone, but also due to price being much lower outside State College, so factor that into your calculations. You are far too bright not to make the connection between geography and price. So I will let that one slide. Again you are making false assumptions. You assume that everyone bears the same proportion of the burden. Not true. You think that you are "sticking it to the man” but the end result is that you are engaging in a form of collective punishment. (Which, by the way, is a war crime under the fourth Geneva Convention) So if you want to side with Hitler, be my guest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #91 August 5, 2012 QuoteHow do you know football attendance will drop by that degree? People don't stay oustide State College due to geography alone, but also due to price being much lower outside State College, so factor that into your calculations. A ten percent hit in income is manageable for a finite period of time to any reasonably run business. Heck, my household income took a 10% hit this year due to both of us being broken. We still manage to pay the bills. There are 153,000 people in Centre County. A 1,000,000 drop in income is $6.50 per person. Will there be an impact, yes, will it be a staggeringly huge impact that is irrecoverable? Not by a very long shot. The good that is done with that money, the hit to PSU as a whole, and the message it sends to other colleges and businesses is well worth it, and that is the intent of the repercussions to begin with. BTW you are off by two orders of magnitude it it not $6.60 it is $6600. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #92 August 5, 2012 QuoteQuote There are 153,000 people in Centre County. A 1,000,000 drop in income is $6.50 per person. BTW you are off by two orders of magnitude it it not $6.60 it is $6600. you're telling us that a million dollars divided by 153,000 doesn't equal $6.60? Or are you really valuing Penn State football being so valuable that it's going to generate a BILLION dollars less revenue? I know it's a big program, but return to reality, please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 186 #93 August 5, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote There are 153,000 people in Centre County. A 1,000,000 drop in income is $6.50 per person. BTW you are off by two orders of magnitude it it not $6.60 it is $6600. you're telling us that a million dollars divided by 153,000 doesn't equal $6.60? Or are you really valuing Penn State football being so valuable that it's going to generate a BILLION dollars less revenue? I know it's a big program, but return to reality, please. Not to mention 1,000 is three orders of magnitude (count the zeroes). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #94 August 5, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote There are 153,000 people in Centre County. A 1,000,000 drop in income is $6.50 per person. BTW you are off by two orders of magnitude it it not $6.60 it is $6600. you're telling us that a million dollars divided by 153,000 doesn't equal $6.60? Or are you really valuing Penn State football being so valuable that it's going to generate a BILLION dollars less revenue? I know it's a big program, but return to reality, please. What I said was that the ENTIRE ATHLETEC center generates around a Billion dollars of ECONOMIC ACTIVITY not revenue (there is a difference). That includes the basketball stadium, (where Van Halen canceled) the track and field complex, the baseball and softball complexes, and on and on. As far as the math goes, 1billion X 10% = one hundred million. One hundred million divided by 153,000 = 653.57., which is admittedly not 6600 (fat fingers), but is still by two orders of magnitude greater than what had been previously stated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #95 August 6, 2012 QuoteYes, Hutch, I did implicate myself. My money did help fund the cover up of pedophilia. It's sad, and I regret contributing to that culture of the almighty football team there (sent my son to football camp at PSU). Although very much on the periphery compared to some, I did indirectly contribute to the problem. At least I admit it. Retailers can sell more goods at Christmas than other times of the year. Hotels can only sell X number of rooms per weekend.. they can't just stock more goods like retail can. Seven weekends with marginally reduced business will not make a difference unless the business is not profitable to begin with. Remember that football games will still happen, people will still be there, and quite likely just as many as before... it is your logic that is off base there. BTW Jen, brenthutch, is not the same person as Hutch; brenthutch is Hutch's snarky and acerbic alter ego. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #96 August 6, 2012 >What about the hotel worker in Altoona who will lose her job this winter? She'll move to Tuscaloosa and get a job there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #97 August 6, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote There are 153,000 people in Centre County. A 1,000,000 drop in income is $6.50 per person. BTW you are off by two orders of magnitude it it not $6.60 it is $6600. you're telling us that a million dollars divided by 153,000 doesn't equal $6.60? Or are you really valuing Penn State football being so valuable that it's going to generate a BILLION dollars less revenue? I know it's a big program, but return to reality, please. What I said was that the ENTIRE ATHLETEC center generates around a Billion dollars of ECONOMIC ACTIVITY not revenue (there is a difference). That includes the basketball stadium, (where Van Halen canceled) the track and field complex, the baseball and softball complexes, and on and on. As far as the math goes, 1billion X 10% = one hundred million. One hundred million divided by 153,000 = 653.57., which is admittedly not 6600 (fat fingers), but is still by two orders of magnitude greater than what had been previously stated. She was talking about a loss of a million in revenue. You're talking about a total "economic activity" of a billion dollars. Not at all the same thing. If it had gotten the death penalty, as was proposed until PSU plea bargained it down, then yes, you'd be looking at a loss of most of that billion dollars. But since the program continues on, albeit in weakened form, it's going to lose some...though let's be honest, most of that loss is coming because PSU harbored a child fucker, not because the NCAA punished them. In any event, it's not a billion dollars divided by 153000, it's a much smaller number. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #98 August 6, 2012 Quote >What about the hotel worker in Altoona who will lose her job this winter? She'll move to Tuscaloosa and get a job there. Yep, she knows Nick Saban demands that his program be run clean and troublemakers tend to disappear. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #99 August 6, 2012 Ok, geography and price... I'll break it down. Spend $250/night in State College vs. $100/night 35 miles outside of State College for a hotel room. Yes, many people will still be staying outside of State College due to the lower price point. Heck, when I do CE in Atlanta, I can stay at the area hotels for $250-300/night, or go just outside the city for $80/night. I take the cheaper option. It has nothing to do with availability of rooms. No different with PSU football. Some people do care about price. Next... how much will the crowd decline? Given the We Are Penn State support, many may actually go to games when they would not have otherwise to support the school in the time of trouble. Plus you have reunion weekends, current students that go, homecoming, etc. How did you come up with the drop that you did? Regarding the 'innocent' facing consequences... that's life. As I said before... should a woman not go to prison because her children will suffer? No one lives in a vacuum. Everything we do affects other people. This goes for both good and bad. Many people profitted off of PSU, so reaped much good from the university in it's glory. The reverse is also true. That's just how life works. Sorry, I forgot for a moment that I was dealing with the snarky alterego, won't make that mistake again Brenthutch Given that you are clearly so invested in this topic, exactly what ramifications to PSU would be fair in your mind given that the coverup was vast, the oversight that should have been occurring did not, there was gross lack of compliance with a couple of legal acts (read the Freeh report for more details... have you read it yet?) From janitors on up to president the cover up was far reaching. At least some students had to suspect given the close knit nature of any football program. What would be 'fair' to you? Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #100 August 6, 2012 It's going to get worse than people think... 9 players have already defected to other teams... maybe more."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
