jcd11235 0 #76 July 17, 2012 Quotethe benefit from society is they get to use the roads and sewers Incorrect. Quoteany success beyond that you claim that's also because of society and not their efforts Also incorrect.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 0 #77 July 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteI see them arguing that they shouldn't have to support all the other social programs in a disproportionate way. I see them arguing that they shouldn't have to support all the other social programs in a disproportionate way, despite benefiting from society disproportionately. the benefit from society is they get to use the roads and sewers - just like everyone else- any success beyond that you claim that's also because of society and not their efforts - others claim that the extra benefit they earned....that's the real question, isn't it? and because everyone is not a successful business owner I would say there is a lot more to it then what the government "helped" us with.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #78 July 17, 2012 Not counting the funding, I'd say that Kleinrock and Licklider contributed a LOT more to the development of the internet than did the US Government. By four or five years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #79 July 17, 2012 QuoteIn giving these examples I know you are just going to counter and say they are wrong but lets give it a shot... Good guess. Quotebusiness --> Tax increases and regulation that kills industries (i.e. coal) Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I didn't think the business tax rate had changed. Am I wrong? QuoteMilitary --> Massive cuts ( less could be used) If you agree that less military is needed, why do you disagree with proposals to scale down the force? I agree that raising health costs for retirees is wrong, but adjusting pay for people who haven't even signed up yet is not breaking faith. QuoteStanding in the world--> I could throw some stuff at you that you would just call opinion so let me just share the view of our country now in the eyes of hostiles... you may still call this opinion... Putin thinks we are weak and crumbling and has no respect for Obama at all... nor do a lot of other hostile countries and their leaders An insane amount of security leaks that have put US lives in danger Gun running that led to a US death and many Mexican deaths. The cover up is what is hurting our relationship with many south of the border. Israel... enough said. I don't give a shit what Putin says. He was speaking to his domestic base, who want a tough leader and a return to Soviet power. He's not a credible witness. Security leaks happen under everyone's watch. Who is in the White House doesn't change that. I agree that Fast and Furious is very fucked up. I strongly disagree with how Obama has handled that whole affair. Not sure what your problem with how Obama has handled the Israeli situation is. Clearly, enough was not said. QuoteEdited to add: The economy he has kept from moving hurts us all around. Besides business taxes (which I don't think have actually changed) what has he done to keep the economy down? - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #80 July 17, 2012 >I will give you that on rare occasions some smart people in the government make >things happen but it is not comparable to what business does. Overall - agreed. Business is much, much better in providing consumer goods and services than government will ever be. Their role is best reserved for providing infrastructure, financing large projects that private companies cannot (space programs, dams, the Internet) and doing basic (i.e. non-profitable) research. >Business could survive without government. Anarchy is demonstrably bad for business. Fedex wouldn't survive without the Federal highway system, and Home Depot wouldn't last long if anyone with a gun could "get a good deal." I think you mean "business could survive with less government" which is almost certainly true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 0 #81 July 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteIn giving these examples I know you are just going to counter and say they are wrong but lets give it a shot... Good guess. Quotebusiness --> Tax increases and regulation that kills industries (i.e. coal) Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I didn't think the business tax rate had changed. Am I wrong? QuoteMilitary --> Massive cuts ( less could be used) If you agree that less military is needed, why do you disagree with proposals to scale down the force? I agree that raising health costs for retirees is wrong, but adjusting pay for people who haven't even signed up yet is not breaking faith. QuoteStanding in the world--> I could throw some stuff at you that you would just call opinion so let me just share the view of our country now in the eyes of hostiles... you may still call this opinion... Putin thinks we are weak and crumbling and has no respect for Obama at all... nor do a lot of other hostile countries and their leaders An insane amount of security leaks that have put US lives in danger Gun running that led to a US death and many Mexican deaths. The cover up is what is hurting our relationship with many south of the border. Israel... enough said. I don't give a shit what Putin says. He was speaking to his domestic base, who want a tough leader and a return to Soviet power. He's not a credible witness. Security leaks happen under everyone's watch. Who is in the White House doesn't change that. I agree that Fast and Furious is very fucked up. I strongly disagree with how Obama has handled that whole affair. Not sure what your problem with how Obama has handled the Israeli situation is. Clearly, enough was not said. QuoteEdited to add: The economy he has kept from moving hurts us all around. Besides business taxes (which I don't think have actually changed) what has he done to keep the economy down? Your post "Can you give some specific examples of what Obama has done or promised to do" He wants to raise taxes on businesses 250k+ ring a bell? He also has printed money to prop up markets but that has done nothing to help us recover other than dig us in to a deeper hole. Obama Care has many taxes in it and is by itself one big tax on the middle class which will also force businesses to drop their insurance for employees. The security leaks that happened and mounted are unacceptable and more than I have heard about in my adult life. We do need to make some cuts in military and I agree with you that raising health care costs on retirees is wrong. We do not need the cuts that are about to automatically kick in though... they are too deep especially with what is going on in the world. Let me also point out.... how long has it been since this country had a budget? The Senate controlled by the left will not even try....Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #82 July 17, 2012 >Not counting the funding, I'd say that Kleinrock and Licklider contributed a LOT more >to the development of the internet than did the US Government. Agreed. But the important part of your sentence is: "not counting the funding." I mean, not counting the labor, the Internet was developed entirely by the US government - but again that doesn't give you a good sense of what actually happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 0 #83 July 17, 2012 Quote>I will give you that on rare occasions some smart people in the government make >things happen but it is not comparable to what business does. Overall - agreed. Business is much, much better in providing consumer goods and services than government will ever be. Their role is best reserved for providing infrastructure, financing large projects that private companies cannot (space programs, dams, the Internet) and doing basic (i.e. non-profitable) research. >Business could survive without government. Anarchy is demonstrably bad for business. Fedex wouldn't survive without the Federal highway system, and Home Depot wouldn't last long if anyone with a gun could "get a good deal." I think you mean "business could survive with less government" which is almost certainly true. Yes.. that's what I mean. I know you say it over and over and I agree with you that government absolutely has its place. So does regulation but not to the extent that we have now.Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #84 July 17, 2012 I fully understand it was a societal or group effort. Ignoring the contributions of individuals has historically been the way to pay respect to those that actually contributed. Fine, we'll take the political perspective: I was a key contributor in the creation of the Internet. World Wide Web too. Where's my trophy??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #85 July 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteYes I get what you are trying to say and in the end those things are part of what is used by successful people. But that is not his point or context So, basically, the only thing you think is bizarre is that he acknowledges that the government performs useful services? You need to re-read the his speech What is bizarre and sad it he thinks nearly no one can succede without his government So, basically, the only thing you think is bizarre is that he acknowledges that the government performs useful services?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #86 July 17, 2012 >I was a key contributor in the creation of the Internet. World Wide Web too. Where's my trophy? It's in the mail! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #87 July 17, 2012 QuoteSo what should Sam Walton do here? Should he have paid taxes for roads just like everybody else - I assume he did as he went along? Are you saying they shut the roads down for everybody but Sam? I don't really get this line of argument that equates something like welfare with things like public roads and utilities - it seems to be a moot point at best. Petty at worst. But not really productive. At best, all you guys are saying is - "society exists". OK, I suspect everybody acknowledges that. I do find that acknowledging a handful of individuals that have success to be much more motivating than giving everyone a medal, or calling anyone that wakes up in the morning a "hero".......YMMV Just how does having public roads (or purchasing and using in the open market anothers' invention or business like paper and printing) to help enable a guy like Sam to succeed equate to giving welfare and other entitlements to those who didn't invent or create a product. I want to understand the mindset that considers them equivalent. Why is exploiting the public market successfully than others so much less praiseworthy than those that exploit the government welfare system successfully than others? Who gave back more to the rest of us once it was alll done? Or is it really just that we can control the second group more than the first? Or is it just ego? as eloquent (or not, in my case) as we can be here - it still just boils down to the whole "equal results vs equal opportunities" debate. And that's been beat to death. There are a lot of things in that post which appear to have been taken from sources other than anything which has been said in this thread or the article which started it.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #88 July 17, 2012 Well that's more than the Navy gave me for an invention in a mainframe computer. It was only a safer power supply that no longer risked killing someone, but still. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #89 July 17, 2012 QuoteThere are a lot of things in that post which appear to have been taken from sources other than anything which has been said in this thread or the article which started it. I don't care. I stand by my position that the Coach rating and the PRO ratings are useless revenue pumps from the USPA. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #90 July 17, 2012 Quote What pisses me off are the people who deny any role for the existing social structures (an educated work force, law and order, etc) and infrastructure (roads, power grids, even clean water/public health facilities such as water treatment plants) in their success, and argue that they have no obligation to support any of it. These things are already payed for, or at least should already be paid for, with current taxes. Obama's argument is that he should be able to take more money from "successful" people at his discretion to pay for things he sees fit to deem "for the public good". That's my take on this.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #91 July 17, 2012 Given a sinlge flat fee for ALL instructor ratings, I don't see how. The PRO rating has some administrative work involved as well as the ID and renewal, so I can see that costing a little more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #92 July 17, 2012 yeah, I guess so. I just find both to be very annoying. I have warmed a bit to AADs, and I don't get too annoyed at people that have never done CrW or jumped F111 at some point. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #93 July 17, 2012 >These things are already payed for, or at least should already be paid for, with current > taxes. Agreed. >Obama's argument is that he should be able to take more money from "successful" >people at his discretion to pay for things he sees fit to deem "for the public good". Which is exactly how the justice system, roads, power grids, clean water, and public health facilities like water treatment plants etc came to pass. There were always opponents who did not want to support them. Many times it turned out to be a good investment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #94 July 17, 2012 QuoteQuote>Bill .. you got the point.. paved roads came out of necessity for things like carts etc. Right! Government provided the infrastructure that the "transportation industry" required. >I stand by my point that the government is reactive and business is proactive. I'd say it's both. Government developed ARPANet (became the Internet) the space program, nuclear power, the Interstate highway system etc. Business developed the microprocessor, the automobile, the airplane etc. I will give you that on rare occasions some smart people in the government make things happen but it is not comparable to what business does. Business could survive without government. how well was shipping near Somalia doing until the governments increased their military presence? And without those roads, how would business survive at all? No ability to transport except along the sea shore, and then we have pirates again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #95 July 17, 2012 Quote Many times it turned out to be a good investment. Obama, and his administration, haven't demonstrated good judgement in many areas, including their investment banking activities.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #96 July 17, 2012 >Obama, and his administration, haven't demonstrated good judgement in many >areas, including their investment banking activities. Well, if you're talking about the banking bailout, you now have a choice between two people who supported it. If you are talking about his own personal investment banking, don't see what that has to do with anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #97 July 17, 2012 QuoteNot counting the funding, I'd say that Kleinrock and Licklider contributed a LOT more to the development of the internet than did the US Government. By four or five years. Licklider was part of DARPA - ie, the government. Kleinrock was a PhD student whose concept was turned into reality at DARPA. Development is much more than just the idea, but the implementation and testing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #98 July 17, 2012 If his banking has nothing to do with anything, why are so many hung up on seeing Romney's tax returns? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #99 July 17, 2012 QuoteIf his banking has nothing to do with anything, why are so many hung up on seeing Romney's tax returns? If his banking has nothing to do with anything, then why isn't Romney following his father's advice?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #100 July 17, 2012 I dunno, I never heard his father's advice. The whole tit vs. tat game just leaves me confused anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
