You are the Juror. George Zimmerman trial

[normiss 622]

I thought this was challenged by the defense too....so I found this.

you figure this out

[muff528 3]

Ah! So a specific legal reason combined with the judge's decision that the presence of Martin's mother would not "prejudice (Zimm's) ability to receive a fair trial". Very good explanation. Thanks!

[pchapman 262]

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After the 911 operator said "We don't need you to do that" GZ said "OK". He claims he also turned around at that point.

What I find interesting is how so many believe that that statement was a command from 911 not to follow. 911 may well have meant that. But they didn't say "Do not do that" or even "Please, we'd prefer if you don't do that".

The phrasing used makes it sound like following or not following are both valid options. GZ could easily have interpreted the statement as, "We don't need you to do that. That's above and beyond what is required of a civilian. We'll send the police. But if you want to follow, we can't tell you what to do in your exact situation, and indeed it may still be a very useful action, but we can't specifically recommend following someone at this stage."

It's like saying someone doesn't need to run into a burning building to save a person. It may be a stupid move or a heroic life saving move. But a 911 dispatcher on the phone can't well say that "you need to run into that burning building and risk your life!".

This interpretation issue may have some use to the case as it affects the perception of whether GZ listens to rules & authority and was 'in control', or does whatever he pleases.

[Darius11 12]

My .02
Guilty for one reason and one reason only. He followed the person he shot.
There was no one crying for help he just decided this kid looks like trouble.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Gravitymaster 0]

Darius11

My .02
Guilty for one reason and one reason only. He followed the person he shot.
There was no one crying for help he just decided this kid looks like trouble.

What do you think someone who is a participant in a Neighborhood Watch Program should do when they see a stranger walking through their neighborhood at night?

He was following him so that when the Police showed up, he could tell them where TM was. Following someone for that reason and under circumstances that there had been break-ins recently in the neighborhood is very much in line with what GZ should have been doing, given his position as a Neighborhood Watch Captain.

[Darius11 12]

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What do you think someone who is a participant in a Neighborhood Watch Program should do when they see a stranger walking through their neighborhood at night?

I don’t think I would follow a stranger I am sure I don’t know everyone, and everyone’s possible guest so most people would be a stranger to me. How many people did this guy follow every night?

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He was following him so that when the Police showed up, he could tell them where TM was.

Maybe I don’t know the facts to this case; did he see TM commit a crime? Why would the police show up? Last I checked this was America and I could walk on any street I wanted. What would the police do tell you not to walk here because you’re a stranger? Or did he see him commit a crime?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[DanG 1]

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I have no doubt that the Obama/Holder Dept. of Justice will file civil rights violations against him and hound him into bankruptcy.

I've got $100 says they don't. Still have no doubt?

- Dan G

[skypuppy 1]

Darius11

My .02
Guilty for one reason and one reason only. He followed the person he shot.
There was no one crying for help he just decided this kid looks like trouble.

It's not against the law to follow someone. It is against the law to threaten or to attack someone. We don't actually know that Z ever threatened or attacked TM - therefore he cannot be proven guilty unless there is someone else as a witness that can tell us.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[davjohns 1]

Darius11

My .02
Guilty for one reason and one reason only. He followed the person he shot.
There was no one crying for help he just decided this kid looks like trouble.

Not a bad point. But if I recall correctly, didn't he lose the kid and return to his vehicle? I think the kid turned around and followed him to his vehicle to start the physical confrontation. So, using the same reasoning, doesn't that make the kid the agressor and reverse your argument?

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Darius11

Quote

What do you think someone who is a participant in a Neighborhood Watch Program should do when they see a stranger walking through their neighborhood at night?

I don’t think I would follow a stranger I am sure I don’t know everyone, and everyone’s possible guest so most people would be a stranger to me. How many people did this guy follow every night?

Neighborhood Watch, by definition is there to observe and be the eyes and ears of the Police. They are not allowed to take any action unless it's an emergency. Their job is to report suspicious activity to the Police, which is what GZ did. He went over the line by following TM but it's my understanding that he did because in the past, when suspicious activity was reported, the suspect was either gone or in hiding when the Police arrived. As has also been pointed out, following someone is not against the law.

***
He was following him so that when the Police showed up, he could tell them where TM was.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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It's not against the law to follow someone.

True. Do you have kids? A spouse? If your kid (or spouse) called you, after dark, and told you they were walking home and were being followed by a strange man, can you honestly say you would not be concerned? That you would tell your kid "there's no law against someone following you?" Or would you be alarmed, and go out to meet your kid and protect them from the threat?

The argument that "just following someone" cannot reasonably be perceived as threatening is demonstrably bogus, IMHO.

Zimmerman could easily have defused the situation, not only by following the 911 operator's instruction, but (if he decided not to do so) by calling out to Martin, identifying himself as with Neighborhood Watch, and asking if Martin needed help. There is no evidence, from the 911 recording or from any witness, that Zimmerman did anything of the kind. There is evidence from other encounters Zimmerman had with people he didn't know that his usual MO was to be confrontational. Any police officer knows to identify themselves when dealing with someone who looks "out of place".

I live out in the country, on a gravel dead-end road. I have a neighbor who used to be in the habit of patrolling the road on his ATV, while conspicuously armed, and stopping any vehicle he didn't recognize and interrogating the driver about their business in our neighborhood. A self-appointed "neighborhood watch" type of guy. He only stopped doing this when the sheriff paid him a visit and explained that he would be arrested the next time he pulled someone over. Now he follows vehicles up to the driveway they turn in to, and sits at the road and watches until the occupants are greeted by the homeowner. Not illegal, but still creepy and threatening. Two of my wife's co-workers, both black as it happens, now refuse to come to social events at our house because they are afraid of this guy.

I can very easily see how a violent confrontation could have resulted when this guy was stopping vehicles on the road.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Gravitymaster 0]

So if your kid called you and said he was less than a block away from home and someone was following him, your advice would be to double back and confront that person?

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Your advice would be to hang up and go back to your Cheetos and porn?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[skypuppy 1]

GeorgiaDon

Quote

It's not against the law to follow someone.

True. Do you have kids? A spouse? If your kid (or spouse) called you, after dark, and told you they were walking home and were being followed by a strange man, can you honestly say you would not be concerned? That you would tell your kid "there's no law against someone following you?" Or would you be alarmed, and go out to meet your kid and protect them from the threat?

The argument that "just following someone" cannot reasonably be perceived as threatening is demonstrably bogus, IMHO.

Again, as I said, following someone is not illegal. And while you are correct that sometimes the manner in which one follows someone can be threatening - as in your example where the guy obviously carried a weapon, or perhaps someone with knife in hand running after you - it does not necessarily make sense that ANY TIME SOMEONE IS FOLLOWED, it could be conceived of as threatening.

And while you may be correct that Z could have de-escalated the situation, it is also quite possible that TM could have de-excalated the situation by not confronting Z or by saying he was staying at a certain person's home, etc. etc. As far as I know Z may have told TM the police were on their way, if he had the chance before TM hit him...

And protecting your kids from a threat likely does not mean attacking a person they 'think' is following them.

I do not necessarily think a neighbor watching out for the people on his street is wrong, expecially if there is a history of break-ins in the area.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Gravitymaster 0]

GeorgiaDon

Your advice would be to hang up and go back to your Cheetos and porn?

Don

Nope, I'd tell him to hurry on home and we would call the Police once he was safe inside. You know, like a normal person who wasn't looking for a confrontation would do.

[billvon 2,426]

>Again, as I said, following someone is not illegal.

Nor is defending yourself against an armed stalker.

>And while you may be correct that Z could have de-escalated the situation, it is also
>quite possible that TM could have de-excalated the situation by not confronting Z . . .

Both are true. Thus the person that initiated the situation was the only one who could have reliably prevented it.

[linebckr83 3]

GeorgiaDon

Do you have kids? A spouse? If your kid (or spouse) called you, after dark, and told you they were walking home and were being followed by a strange man, can you honestly say you would not be concerned? That you would tell your kid "there's no law against someone following you?" Or would you be alarmed, and go out to meet your kid and protect them from the threat?
Don

Do you have kids? A spouse? What if your neighbors' homes were being broken into, several times with people in the house, and your wife even saw one of them run by your house. They frequently run off before cops show up, probably to return later. Tension is high in your neighborhood and your wife is obviously worried. She's home alone and as you drive by you spot a person who is walking in between houses, looking in windows, in the dark, in the rain. Would you say "fuck it, my wife and neighbors will be fine. I'll just keep driving to the store." or are you going to approach and get him out of your neighborhood? Any good husband or neighbor, let alone a neighborhood watch captain, would do the latter.

If you don't want people following you and wondering what you're up to, don't go walking inbetween houses in a crime-ridden neighborhood in the dark rain. Common sense.

According to testimony, he wasn't even following him when TM approached, asked if he had a problem, then socked him in the face. Hopefully you are watching the trial live and not the biased media's portrayal.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[billvon 2,426]

>or are you going to approach and get him out of your neighborhood?

If you are saying that Zimmerman approached him with the intent of "ejecting" him, and it escalated - he's going to jail for a long time.

[airdvr 198]

Has anyone determined what TM was doing in that development? Did he live nearby or was he going to visit a friend?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[normiss 622]

He was sent by mom in Miami to stay with dad after getting suspended for possession of an "empty marijuana bag" and something about stolen jewelry.
He was walking back to dad's girlfriend's home after going to the store.

[linebckr83 3]

I'm not sure what his intent was.

According to GZ, he was following him to keep an eye on him until non-emergency personnel arrived. GZ lost him right away, and walked down the sidewalk to get an address off the house to give to non-emergency. As he was walking back on the sidewalk, martin approached him and started the fight. So far there's no evidence to show otherwise.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[turtlespeed 212]

billvon

>Again, as I said, following someone is not illegal.

Nor is defending yourself against an armed stalker.

>And while you may be correct that Z could have de-escalated the situation, it is also
>quite possible that TM could have de-excalated the situation by not confronting Z . . .

Both are true. Thus the person that initiated the situation was the only one who could have reliably prevented it.

So you think that GZ should have just left him alone and not followed through with his responsibilities as neighborhood watch, right?

Not using hindsight.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Darius11 12]

davjohns

***My .02
Guilty for one reason and one reason only. He followed the person he shot.
There was no one crying for help he just decided this kid looks like trouble.

Not a bad point. But if I recall correctly, didn't he lose the kid and return to his vehicle? I think the kid turned around and followed him to his vehicle to start the physical confrontation. So, using the same reasoning, doesn't that make the kid the agressor and reverse your argument?


Yes it would, if the kid followed him and started attacking the guy then yea I agree with you.

As for the kid being followed and that not being a illegal, I am sure most of us would be very weary of some dude was following us I know at some point I would turn around and ask what they wanted ready for shit to hit the fan.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[linebckr83 3]

Agreed. And sadly there is only one testimony of what happened at that period.

According to testimony though, GZ lost Martin pretty quickly, and while walking back towards the street, heard someone talk. He said the conversation was:

"You got a problem with me?" - TM as he approaches GZ
"No I don't got a problem with you" - GZ as he reaches for his phone
"Well now you do" followed by a punch to the face and the ensuing fight

Which seems to coincide with witness testimony that they heard 3 sentences between 2 men, followed immediately by a scuffle and then cries for help.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[Darius11 12]

Quote

My understanding is there had been crime recently in the neighborhood and the police had been called. I doubt GZ was the only one on Neighborhood Watch who had followed someone they did not recognize walking through the neighborhood at night. In fact, the night in question, he was not on duty and was headed to the store with his handgun on him. He had a permit to carry the gun

I am all for most people having guns on them, no matter the law. My right to life is not up for discussion.

However when you have a gun (was it conceal carry?) you’re supposed to let things go as much as possible. When I am armed I am the biggest pussy you will ever meet. Because I know what I have and I know if I escalate the issue what might happen. So we the people who are armed should at all times avoid escalating the situation. Following a young man when you know you are armed is a huge no no.
Let’s say he was going to steal some shit that’s not an action punishable by death. I think it was a bad move by Z man by my opinion.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain