Florida Teen Shot

[DanG 1]

Quote

Been provided
You just refuse to see it

And I've patiently explained, again and again, why your evidence is sorely lacking, but you don't want to see that.

- Dan G

[turtlespeed 212]

normiss

He actually made incorrect references to evidence...that's bad.
I think that might be what the juror with 2 notepads was comparing.

I think he did an amazing job. Of introducing reasonable doubt in everything he mentioned.

The prosecutor did an awesome job of showing reasonable doubt.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Channman 2]

Fair enough...I understand your point(s).

[DanG 1]

Quote

Fair enough...I understand your point(s).

Thank you for the civility. It's generally lacking around here.

- Dan G

[normiss 622]

PLEASE.

[devildog 0]

Iago

***http://outfront.blogs.cnn.com/2013/07/09/pastors-work-to-prevent-violence-after-zimmerman-trial/
pastors-work-to-prevent-violence-after-zimmerman-trial

http://outfront.blogs.cnn.com/2013/06/21/sanford-braces-for-possible-zimmerman-riots/
sanford-braces-for-possible-zimmerman-riots

http://wlrn.org/post/miami-dade-knows-riots-too-well-plans-zimmerman-verdict
miami-dade-knows-riots-too-well-plans-zimmerman-verdict

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/10/psa-sheriff-zimmerman-trayvon/2505381/
Video urges no violence after Zimmerman verdict

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/30/sanford-frets-about-prospect-of-riots-over-trayvon-martin-killing.html
sanford-frets-about-prospect-of-riots-over-trayvon-martin-killing

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/06/27/if-zimmerman-get-off-ima-go-kill-a-white-boy-trayvon-martin-supporters-make-shocking-threats-ahead-of-verdict/
if-zimmerman-get-off-ima-go-kill-a-white-boy-trayvon-martin-supporters-make-shocking-threats-ahead-of-verdict

http://www.mrconservative.com/2013/07/20372-trayvon-martin-supporters-planning-to-riot-loot-if-zimmerman-walks/
trayvon-martin-supporters-planning-to-riot-loot-if-zimmerman-walks

Well, when they riot someone please remind them to burn down their own neighborhood first.

Usually what happens anyway.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

muff528

As an untrained outsider, it seems to me that there is no middle ground in this case. Nobody, not even the defense, is disputing that Z pointed his gun at M's chest and pulled the trigger. That was either an act of self-defense or it was 2nd-degree murder. If the jury decides to "compromise" with a manslaughter (or other nonsense charge) conviction, then they are effectively saying that it was not self-defense. If they reject the self-defense argument, and given that Zimmerman made an undisputed conscious decision to shoot Martin, that would leave 2nd-degree murder as the only other option. (consider all that as a question.)

If you are asking how it can be manslaughter, but not 2nd Degree Murder, then it all boils down to intent.
Did GZ intend to kill TM? I believe not. That pretty much rules out 2nd Degree.

But it can easily be "not self defense", but not intentional. That is where manslaughter comes in. Usually "Voluntary Manslaughter", but "Involuntary" is also a possibility.
I've held the opinion that this was never a case of 2nd Degree Murder, it was a case of Voluntary Manslaughter, and the claim of self defense was invalid (basically a vigilante situation that turned deadly).

The issue with self defense (and the one a lot of people are missing completely) is that there are several elements to a claim of self defense. "Fear of Death or Great Bodily Injury" is one of them.
But not the only one. All of them must be present for a claim of self defense to stand up in a court of law.

As currently taught, it is also necessary for the threat to be immediate, for no lesser force to be adequate, and for the claimant to be an unwilling participant. (the old way was an "unavoidable situation." Basically the same thing.)

I don't believe that GZ intended to "hunt down and kill" TM, as has been suggested by the agitators. I believe his motive was to stop what he thought was a criminal.
But TM has not been shown to be involved in any criminal activity at that time (I am treating TM's prior record the same as GZ's for this- irrelevant).

And GZ willingly got out of his car to continue to follow TM after TM apparently tried to elude the "creepy-ass-cracker" he noticed following him.

GZ deliberately put himself into the situation.

As I have said before, if the defense can separate GZ following TM from TM attacking GZ (assuming GZ's version is the truth), then the self defense claim will stand.
If the prosecution can keep the entire situation as one incident (from GZ first spotting TM to the shooting), then the correct charge is Voluntary Manslaughter. He deliberately put himself into a situation that ended in the death of TM.

Another point that is being missed is that the claim of self defense often has to be proven. It's not that GZ has to prove himself innocent.
It's that GZ clearly shot an unarmed TM, who was apparently doing nothing but walking home from the store.
If GZ can't show that all of the necessary elements of a claim of self defense were present, then his claim shouldn't stand.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[devildog 0]

wolfriverjoe

If GZ can't show that all of the necessary elements of a claim of self defense were present, then his claim shouldn't stand.

Did you catch the testimony of the 22ish year police vet the defense had? He pretty much nailed the self defense claim for Zimmerman.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

devildog

***
If GZ can't show that all of the necessary elements of a claim of self defense were present, then his claim shouldn't stand.

Did you catch the testimony of the 22ish year police vet the defense had? He pretty much nailed the self defense claim for Zimmerman.

No, not following every minute of it.

If he can show that all the elements are there, then he will be found not guilty.

And there have been several cases in Florida where the "unwilling participant" element has been absent, yet the self defense claim stood.

I don't agree with that, but I'm not in charge.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[livendive 8]

ryoder

As I understand it, they are attempting to say a child was killed while a perp was committing a felony. i.e. Zimmerman would have had to be committing some *other* felony, during which a child also happened to get killed. And the judge is saying there is no evidence to support this scenario.

Pretty close. My understanding is 3rd degree murder is when someone (of any age) dies during the commission of some other felony. In this case, the prosecutors were trying to claim that the other felony was child abuse, i.e. Zimmerman was abusing Martin at the time of the shooting. Pretty long stretch imo. I think they'd have had a better shot at some sort of stalking/intimidation sort of thing if there's such a felony in Florida.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,427]

>Isn't surprising the defense with new lesser charges at 7am on summation day

"knock knock"
"Who's there?"
"Manslaughter."

[skypuppy 1]

***

I've held the opinion that this was never a case of 2nd Degree Murder, it was a case of Voluntary Manslaughter, and the claim of self defense was invalid (basically a vigilante situation that turned deadly).

The issue with self defense (and the one a lot of people are missing completely) is that there are several elements to a claim of self defense. "Fear of Death or Great Bodily Injury" is one of them.
But not the only one. All of them must be present for a claim of self defense to stand up in a court of law.

It's that GZ clearly shot an unarmed TM, who was apparently doing nothing but walking home from the store.
quote]

TM was not doing nothing but walking home. He attacked GZ.

From what you're saying, no one is ever to be allowed to follow someone they don't know in their own neighborhood.

What's next? Maybe you're not following someone, and they think you are. So they can attack you?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[StreetScooby 5]

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And GZ willingly got out of his car to continue to follow TM after TM apparently tried to elude the "creepy-ass-cracker" he noticed following him.

I think the "continue" is in dispute. Watching a few minutes of this trial standing in line at work for coffee, while the defense attorney was up, definitely bought that into context for me.

Quote

GZ deliberately put himself into the situation.

He was on neighborhood watch, in a neighborhood that had been robbed enough times that the folks set up a neighborhood watch, with the help of local law enforcement.

We are all engines of karma

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

StreetScooby

Quote

And GZ willingly got out of his car to continue to follow TM after TM apparently tried to elude the "creepy-ass-cracker" he noticed following him.

I think the "continue" is in dispute. Watching a few minutes of this trial standing in line at work for coffee, while the defense attorney was up, definitely bought that into context for me.

Quote

GZ deliberately put himself into the situation.

He was on neighborhood watch, in a neighborhood that had been robbed enough times that the folks set up a neighborhood watch, with the help of local law enforcement.

Ok, why did GZ get out of the car, if not to continue to follow TM?

Neighborhood watch doesn't have any arrest powers (over and above ordinary citizens).
The cops will tell the NW people to watch and call, to not put themselves into confrontational situations.

So will any firearms instructor or attorney who does self defense cases.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[pchapman 262]

wolfriverjoe

It's that GZ clearly shot an unarmed TM, who was apparently doing nothing but walking home from the store.
If GZ can't show that all of the necessary elements of a claim of self defense were present, then his claim shouldn't stand.

Interesting post overall.

Was GZ's prior behaviour in the neighbourhood watch ever brought up? Had be done much of that before?

If the defence could say that GZ had approached and talked to various people in the past whom he had reported to the cops, and there was never violence, then they'd be able to say that he didn't have any expectation of provoking a dangerous situation. That would go towards a self defence claim. But had he followed people before?

[devildog 0]

General reply.

On the matter of the DOJ:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/11/justice-trayvon-audio-released-doj-member-urging-a/#.Ud9yuDcrKHk.twitter

That whole spiel about them simply assisting to keep the peace and negotiate b/w sides just went up in flames.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[skypuppy 1]

devildog

General reply.

On the matter of the DOJ:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/11/justice-trayvon-audio-released-doj-member-urging-a/#.Ud9yuDcrKHk.twitter

That whole spiel about them simply assisting to keep the peace and negotiate b/w sides just went up in flames.

“CRS is an arm of the department that we call the Peacemakers,” Thomas Battles, regional director of the DOJ's Community Relations Service, said at a meeting at the Shiloh Church on April 19, 2012. “We work with communities where there is real or perceived racial tensions.”



“…When Trayvon happened, for many of us, it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back,” he continued. “We had grown up in a state and environment where race is a way of life … We’re not from Sanford, but what Sanford represented to us was the very real problems going around this state and this country. We wanted to figure out how could we stand in solidarity, and how could we make this about not just justice for Trayvon, but using this moment and using the opportunity to honor his memory, to honor his spirit by working to bring down the various structures and the various systems that allow something like this to happen.”


well, there you have it - it was never about Trayvon - it is about 'using the opportunity..by working to bring down the various structures and the various systems...'

Out of the DoJ's own mouth...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Gravitymaster 0]

Gee.. I wonder if they are concerned that black people will riot if GZ walks. I wonder if they are concerned that White/Hispanics will riot if GZ is convicted?

[rushmc 18]

DanG

Quote

Fair enough...I understand your point(s).

Thank you for the civility. It's generally lacking around here.

What is lacking is an open mind to understand what is being shown

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/11/justice-trayvon-audio-released-doj-member-urging-a/#.Ud9yuDcrKHk.twitter

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Channman 2]

I think if there are any riots in and around Sanford it will be from outsiders. I think the Police Chief and community have made every effort to ensure the community remains calm.

[rushmc 18]

Channman

I think if there are any riots in and around Sanford it will be from outsiders. I think the Police Chief and community have made every effort to ensure the community remains calm.

I agree
That said
I think we can resonably expect some level of rioting


Saddly

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Gravitymaster 0]

rushmc

***I think if there are any riots in and around Sanford it will be from outsiders. I think the Police Chief and community have made every effort to ensure the community remains calm.

I agree
That said
I think we can resonably expect some level of rioting


Saddly

I'm kind of hoping GZ is convicted. I could use a new big screen TV and maybe some new furniture. Do you think I should get the Sony or go for the Samsung?

[turtlespeed 212]

Gravitymaster

******I think if there are any riots in and around Sanford it will be from outsiders. I think the Police Chief and community have made every effort to ensure the community remains calm.

I agree
That said
I think we can resonably expect some level of rioting


Saddly

I'm kind of hoping GZ is convicted. I could use a new big screen TV and maybe some new furniture. Do you think I should get the Sony or go for the Samsung?



Prediction:
1) GZ Goes Free - Found not guilty
Response: Riots and Looting in Anger and Protest

2) GZ Convicted of lesser Charge
Response: Riots and Looting because GZ wasn't convicted of murder

3) GZ Convicted of Murder
Response: Riots and Looting in Celebration

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rwieder 0]

Quote

I was far from impressed. I can't recall seeing one piece of evidence that proves 2nd degree murder. The evidence shown was to disprove GZ's story. What good does that do? That's not the state's job here. They HAVE to prove their case. Assumptions and exaggerations aren't proof.

I wasn't impressed either. Like that matters. The one thing about the prosecutor's closing arguments, is he didn't come across as being congenial at all. He seemed mad for the most part. I found myself disliking this guy because of his demeanor. BUT, not so fast. He gets the "rebuttal" He did not show his entire hand during the first part of his closing argument.
I'm watching Mark O'Meara's closing right now, and he's presenting facts, and the biggest thing is he's staying cool, drinking water as he's delivering his closing argument. So far O'Meara is out performing the prosecution.
BUT, there's always the rebuttal.
Best-
Richard

[Channman 2]

Saddly the DOJ is not finished with this guy if he is found Not Guilty. It's possible the feds will drum up a new charge and drag his ass right back into court until they get their 50 lbs of flesh.