rushmc 18 #126 March 1, 2012 QuoteQuoteYou may care to ask how those who think different than you have had their kids survive with guns in the house their whole lives Let's make a bet: I am going to say that more kids killed themselves or a sibling with guns not locked up in gun safe than those who killed themselves or a sibling with guns locked up in a gun safe. You can take the opposite opinion. How about $10,000? Avoiding the qestion are we? How about a bet about deaths caused by autos cause they had acess to the keys?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,155 #127 March 1, 2012 QuoteHow about a bet about deaths caused by autos cause they had acess to the keys? Sure. I'll bet you more kids killed themselves that way when they had access to the keys than when they did not have access to the keys. Same with guns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #128 March 1, 2012 QuoteQuoteHow about a bet about deaths caused by autos cause they had acess to the keys? Sure. I'll bet you more kids killed themselves that way when they had access to the keys than when they did not have access to the keys. Same with guns. Now you are starting to get it"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #129 March 1, 2012 >Now you are starting to get it So will you take the bet? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #130 March 1, 2012 More people have died from skydiving when they had access to jump planes than those that didn’t More people have died in car accidents when they had access to cars than those who didn’t More people have died from alcohol when they had access to it than those that didn’t More children have died by gun shot when they had access to guns than those that didn’t More people have died from falling off of ladders when they had access to ladders than those that didn’t Shall we continue?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #131 March 1, 2012 Quote>Now you are starting to get it So will you take the bet? I will take the front side of all those I listed You want to bet?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,155 #132 March 1, 2012 QuoteMore children have died by gun shot when they had access to guns than those that didn’t Now you are supporting my opinion. You flip flop more than John Kerry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #133 March 1, 2012 Quote Let's make a bet: I am going to say that more kids killed themselves or a sibling with guns not locked up in gun safe than those who killed themselves or a sibling with guns locked up in a gun safe. You can take the opposite opinion. How about $10,000? so it's no longer about self defense from a home invasion? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #134 March 1, 2012 QuoteQuoteMore children have died by gun shot when they had access to guns than those that didn’t Now you are supporting my opinion. You flip flop more than John Kerry. Supporting your position? Hardly Showing the folly of it More people have died from skydiving when they had access to jump planes than those that didn’t But fewer will die with proper training and equipment More people have died in car accidents when they had access to cars than those who didn’t And fewer will die with proper training More people have died from alcohol when they had access to it than those that didn’t Everyone needs to be responsible for their own actions More children have died by gun shot when they had access to guns than those that didn’t Fewer will die with proper training and exposure AND proper equipment which can include locks and safes More people have died from falling off of ladders when they had access to ladders than those that didn’t Again, proper training and equipment can make a difference There is more than one answer You claim I agree with you and I am flip flopping is lame"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #135 March 1, 2012 QuoteI am going to say that more kids killed themselves or a sibling with guns not locked up in gun safe... Government study: According to a recent government study, "Kids and Guns," published by the Justice Department's Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention: o In other Western countries, the homicide rate for children age 4 and under is just less than 1 per 100,000. o But it's quadruple that in the U.S., at 4.1 per 100,000. o And for every American child 4 or younger killed by a firearm, more than eight others die violently by other means -- blunt objects, strangulation, or most commonly hands, fists or feet. Thus in 1997, of the 738 children under age 13 who were murdered in the U.S., 133 were killed by guns, according the FBI, and even without gun homicides, the child murder rate in the U.S. is more than 3.5 times as high as in other western countries. However, in most of the U.S., child murders are very rare. In 1997, 85 percent of U.S. counties reported no juvenile homicides, and only 7 percent experienced two or more. Analysts say the problem is confined mainly to the big cities of the East and West coasts, and to the Southwest. Source: Statistical Assessment Service, "Juvenile murders: Guns least of it," Christian Science Monitor, March 27, 2000.------------------------------------------------------------------------ So, what are you going to do about those other 82% of child murders under age 13 that did NOT occur with a gun? Should clubs, ropes, hands and feet also be locked up in the gun safe? It's gonna make it hard for mom to cook dinner that way... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #136 March 1, 2012 Quoterefresh my memory - who won that war? Who won in Iraq? Hint: it wasn't us "won" is a relative term. We inflicted heavy losses in the 10 years we were in Vietnam. We certainly killed Saddam Hussein in Iraq and toppled his regime. If you were really biased, you could say that the Native Americans won the war against the European settlers, because they have inflicted more losses on us with tobacco than we did on them with Guns, Germs and Steel. I know some people like to think they are like those cool kids in Red Dawn that can stand up to an invading major army. But I can't see that happening in the real world against the modern US military (not the Vietnam-era Army from 40-years ago). In fact, you could say, with the recent loss of many of our constitutional amendments, we have already capitulated to the government. Not very many people complained. Why should they? Most of them aren't using their civil rights, anyway.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #137 March 1, 2012 QuoteI am going to say that more kids killed themselves or a sibling with guns not locked up in gun safe... Department of Justice National Institute of Justice Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention NCJ-143454, August 1995 "Urban Delinquency and Substance Abuse" This study did annual interviews of boys and girls of various ages from a random selection of 20,000 households. The purpose was to identify crucial factors that lead children into delinquency and crime. Here is one interesting finding they came up with concerning the relationship between guns and delinquency. Figure 13: Relationship between type of gun owned and percent committing street, drug and gun crimes. Illegal gun - Street crimes = 74% Drug use = 41% Gun crimes = 21% No gun - Street crimes = 24% Drug use = 15% Gun crimes = 1% Legal Gun - Street crimes = 14% Drug use = 13% Gun crimes = 0%Quote: "The socialization into gun ownership is also vastly different for legal and illegal gunowners. Those who own legal guns have fathers who own guns for sport and hunting. On the other hand, those who own illegal guns have friends who own illegal guns and are far more likely to be gang members. For legal gunowners, socialization appears to take place in the family; for illegal gunowners, it appears to take place 'on the street'." "Boys who own legal firearms have much lower rates of delinquency and drug use and are even slightly less delinquent than nonowners of guns."End quote. So, this report shows that if you teach your son the shooting sports, there is a much greater chance that he will turn out to be a law-abiding responsible citizen! Much more so than just leaving them ignorant about guns and letting them learn on the street with kids their own age. Being safe around guns is more about training and socialization, then about a gun safe. What's the best way to keep skydiving students from killing themselves with low hook turns? Is it to lock up all the small canopies and not let them have one? Or to teach them why low hook turns are dangerous, and to mentor them in an attitude of safety?-------------------"A Strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks". - Thomas Jefferson, Encyclopedia of Thomas Jefferson, 318, Foley Ed. reissued 1967 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #138 March 1, 2012 QuoteQuoteI am going to say that more kids killed themselves or a sibling with guns not locked up in gun safe... Government study: According to a recent government study, "Kids and Guns," published by the Justice Department's Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention: o In other Western countries, the homicide rate for children age 4 and under is just less than 1 per 100,000. o But it's quadruple that in the U.S., at 4.1 per 100,000. o And for every American child 4 or younger killed by a firearm, more than eight others die violently by other means -- blunt objects, strangulation, or most commonly hands, fists or feet. Thus in 1997, of the 738 children under age 13 who were murdered in the U.S., 133 were killed by guns, according the FBI, and even without gun homicides, the child murder rate in the U.S. is more than 3.5 times as high as in other western countries. However, in most of the U.S., child murders are very rare. In 1997, 85 percent of U.S. counties reported no juvenile homicides, and only 7 percent experienced two or more. Analysts say the problem is confined mainly to the big cities of the East and West coasts, and to the Southwest. Source: Statistical Assessment Service, "Juvenile murders: Guns least of it," Christian Science Monitor, March 27, 2000.------------------------------------------------------------------------ So, what are you going to do about those other 82% of child murders under age 13 that did NOT occur with a gun? Should clubs, ropes, hands and feet also be locked up in the gun safe? So we have to cure ALL problems or none? How about we address the problems we can address regardless of the status of other problems.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #139 March 1, 2012 QuoteSo we have to cure ALL problems or none? "As usual with JR kallend, the beam in one's own eye gets ignored while pointing out the mote in someone else's." Sound familiar? How about mandatory gun safety training at several points in the public education curriculum? Just an hour or so, at say the 2nd, 6th and 10th grade levels, tailored for those specific age groups? What does a kid do if he's on fire? "Stop, drop and roll". That's what they're taught, and they remember it. What about teaching young kids that if they find an unattended gun, that they should "Stop, don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult." Would you approve of that? How about a $100 tax deduction for the purchase of a home gun safe to encourage people to buy one? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #140 March 1, 2012 QuoteQuoteSo we have to cure ALL problems or none? "As usual with JR kallend, the beam in one's own eye gets ignored while pointing out the mote in someone else's." Sound familiar? Lame. How are clubs, knives, etc, beams in MY eye? The Cleveland shooting (see thread title) was done with a GUN, however. That is what this thread is about. GUNS are used in about 76% of homicides in the USA. That's 3 times as many as ALL others combined. GUNS are the issue, not ropes and clubs. Yet you steadfastly deny that there's any problem and obstruct any suggestion about how to deal with it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #141 March 2, 2012 Quote Quote Quote So we have to cure ALL problems or none? "As usual with JR kallend, the beam in one's own eye gets ignored while pointing out the mote in someone else's." Sound familiar? Lame. How are clubs, knives, etc, beams in MY eye? The Cleveland shooting (see thread title) was done with a GUN, however. That is what this thread is about. GUNS are used in about 76% of homicides in the USA. That's 3 times as many as ALL others combined. GUNS are the issue, not ropes and clubs. Yet you steadfastly deny that there's any problem and obstruct any suggestion about how to deal with it. Beam in the eye? Irrelevant Do you have eyes? "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #142 March 2, 2012 QuoteLame. Now that's funny, because all I did was repeat what you said to me in identical circumstances. So what you've just done is call your own comment "lame". Ha! QuoteThe Cleveland shooting (see thread title) was done with a GUN, however. That is what this thread is about. So you don't care about the vast majority of children who are murdered by means other than guns? You steadfastly deny that there's any other problems and obstruct any suggestions about how to deal with them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #143 March 2, 2012 QuoteYou steadfastly deny that there's any other problems and obstruct any suggestions about how to deal with them. Oh no. I'm sure he's aware the NRA exists.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #144 March 2, 2012 QuoteQuoterefresh my memory - who won that war? Who won in Iraq? Hint: it wasn't us "won" is a relative term. We inflicted heavy losses in the 10 years we were in Vietnam. We certainly killed Saddam Hussein in Iraq and toppled his regime. there's no relative here. The Commies eliminated South Vietnam from existence. Saigon became Ho Chi Minh City. Iraq was only slightly better. We got the man, but that's pretty easy to do compared to the secondary mission that Bush foolishly tacked on. In America, it would also be pretty easy for the combined might of our armed forces to find and capture a significant leader. But that's entirely different than trying to keep control of tens of millions of gun owners. In both Iraq and Vietnam, the soldiers had clear notions of good guys and bad guys. Skin color alone did most of the work. Not the case here, is it? So you can insist it is impossible, but all available examples point decided the other direction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #145 March 2, 2012 Clearly we need to ban large coastal liberal urban areas? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #146 March 2, 2012 QuoteThere are quite a few here, who have stated that with proper training it should be fine to leave guns out with kids around. Show the quotes.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #147 March 2, 2012 QuoteHow about mandatory gun safety training at several points in the public education curriculum? Just an hour or so, at say the 2nd, 6th and 10th grade levels, tailored for those specific age groups? You mean like the "Eddie the Eagle" NRA program that says "don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult", which is so, SO terrible compared to the Brady bunch program of "don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult"?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #148 March 2, 2012 QuoteYou mean like the "Eddie the Eagle" NRA program that says "don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult", which is so, SO terrible compared to the Brady bunch program of "don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult"? Ayep. Notice how they can argue ad infinitum for gun restrictions, but when I bring up the ideas of gun education and tax breaks to encourage gun safety, then they all fall silent. Curious thing, eh? It almost makes one think that they're not really interested in just gun safety. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #149 March 2, 2012 QuoteQuoteYou mean like the "Eddie the Eagle" NRA program that says "don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult", which is so, SO terrible compared to the Brady bunch program of "don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult"? Ayep. Notice how they can argue ad infinitum for gun restrictions, but when I bring up the ideas of gun education and tax breaks to encourage gun safety, then they all fall silent. Curious thing, eh? It almost makes one think that they're not really interested in just gun safety. another thing The are stats out there (but I dont know where to find them but) that show that the majority of children or kids (up to and including age 18 I think) are killed in gang/drug related activities That info is often left out or ignored because it does not support the story line"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #150 March 2, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteYou mean like the "Eddie the Eagle" NRA program that says "don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult", which is so, SO terrible compared to the Brady bunch program of "don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult"? Ayep. Notice how they can argue ad infinitum for gun restrictions, but when I bring up the ideas of gun education and tax breaks to encourage gun safety, then they all fall silent. Curious thing, eh? It almost makes one think that they're not really interested in just gun safety. another thing The are stats out there (but I dont know where to find them but) that show that the majority of children or kids (up to and including age 18 I think) are killed in gang/drug related activities WRONG. The majority of children aren't killed at all.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
