Orwellian Doublespeak Dominates Economic Policy

[rushmc 18]

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Not directed just at you Billvon, but what exactly does" a well regulated militia" mean? I understand th D.C v. Heller case, but know for certain the rabidly pro 2nd amendment people would be howling mad about "activist judges" had they concluded that "a well regulated militia" has a meaning.

It does have meaning
You need only look to history to understand what that meaning is

But in the end, the court determined the meaning of the part of that part 2nd NOT to be what the gun control groups wanted it to be!

And if one takes the time to read some of the federalists papers and look at the wording in the context of the time it was written, the real meaning is easy to see

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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>so it doesn't say "welfare of the people of the united states"

You're right, it just says "welfare of the United States." So I guess you could construe it as "welfare of the land mass of the United States" and thus apply it to the Grand Canyon and Plymouth Rock and the trees on Manhattan etc. But since the Grand Canyon doesn't vote (and all those trees on Manhattan are gone) that probably wouldn't be a popular interpretation with politicians.

That's just an idiotic spin on my comment. You're getting lazy.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,434]

>That's just an idiotic spin on my comment. You're getting lazy.

"Humor, it is a difficult concept."
"We learn by doing."

"Who's been holding up the damn elevator?"

[billvon 2,434]

>The powers given the fed gov are clearly spelled out!

Yes, that's what I said. One of those powers is providing for the general welfare.

>And the constitution clearly states the those powers NOT specifically given the fed
>gov., in other words enumerated, that those powers are given to the states

That's actually the tenth amendment, but yes - powers not delegated to the federal government are given to the states (but more importantly, given to the people.)

>You spew the liberal view of the general welfare statement . . .

No, that was the literal, original statement from the Constitution.

>I say ALL parts should be interpreted using the writings and intent that can be learned
>from the documents left to us by the founders

Reinterpret it all you like. The original intent is pretty clear; they really did mean what they said.

[jgoose71 0]

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Not directed just at you Billvon, but what exactly does" a well regulated militia" mean? I understand th D.C v. Heller case, but know for certain the rabidly pro 2nd amendment people would be howling mad about "activist judges" had they concluded that "a well regulated militia" has a meaning.

It does have meaning
You need only look to history to understand what that meaning is

But in the end, the court determined the meaning of the part of that part 2nd NOT to be what the gun control groups wanted it to be!

And if one takes the time to read some of the federalists papers and look at the wording in the context of the time it was written, the real meaning is easy to see

(Putting on liberal hat) There you go refering to the founding fathers again. You obviosly want slavery too. Racist.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[rushmc 18]

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Not directed just at you Billvon, but what exactly does" a well regulated militia" mean? I understand th D.C v. Heller case, but know for certain the rabidly pro 2nd amendment people would be howling mad about "activist judges" had they concluded that "a well regulated militia" has a meaning.

It does have meaning
You need only look to history to understand what that meaning is

But in the end, the court determined the meaning of the part of that part 2nd NOT to be what the gun control groups wanted it to be!

And if one takes the time to read some of the federalists papers and look at the wording in the context of the time it was written, the real meaning is easy to see

(Putting on liberal hat) There you go refering to the founding fathers again. You obviosly want slavery too. Racist.

Nope, they dealt with that knowing they had a problem

they allowed the out if you will
but that is another thread

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Southern_Man 0]

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Can we at least agree that names like "The Patriot Act" have nothing to do with being a patriot?

Should be renamed the "Giving up Liberty for Security--Deserving Niether and Losing Both ACT"

Although that doesn't role off the tongue as nicely.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[StreetScooby 5]

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Although that doesn't role off the tongue as nicely.

Yes, that would be a difficult sell.

We are all engines of karma

[jakee 1,259]

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Throughout almost all of human history it was the highest responsibility of each person to take care of themselves and their families, because there was simply no alternative. But guess what? A lot of people were still totally fucked.

Then along came America's Constitution that enshrined the right to the individual's pursuit. That's the context in which I'm having this discussion.

That context makes no difference whatsoever to the discussion we're having.

Or rather, the one you appear to be avoiding.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[StreetScooby 5]

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Or rather, the one you appear to be avoiding.

What conversation would that be?

We are all engines of karma

[yourmomma 0]

That's funny stuff. Guess what, the federalists didn't get their way. It is even funnier that you want to construe the constitution by standards which were not adopted and have no context in the 21st century. If I am to be protected from my government, I need far more than H&K 40 on my hip and the Barret 50 in the safe. Do the federalist papers address removing arms from felons? Is there something in the 2nd that allows the state to determine who gets to carry? So what does "a well regulated militia" mean?

[muff528 3]

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.... If we are going to interpret their words directly, we might as well bring back slavery also and make a black vote worth only 3/5ths of a white vote.......

I'm sure you understand that the "3/5 compromise" did not "make a black vote only 3/5ths of a white vote". Slaves still got no vote and white slaveholders effectively got 3/5 additional votes for each slave they owned in the form of congressional representation ....to the detriment of those slaves.

[rushmc 18]

So what does "a well regulated militia" mean?

[muff528 3]

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So what does "a well regulated militia" mean?

NOT what the gun-o-phobes wanted it to mean

[rushmc 18]

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So what does "a well regulated militia" mean?

NOT what the gun-o-phobes wanted it to mean

Interesting article "http://yarchive.net/gun/politics/regulate.html"]here.

From the article:

Note that well-regulated" clearly refers to how well the militia functions and how well trained are the militia members. It does not refer at all to the degree to which the government controls the militia or the members of the militia.

and:

Therefore I conclude that the meaning of the 2nd Amendment is, "A properly functioning Militia is necessary to the security of a free State; therefore the (pre-existing) right of the people to keep and bear
Arms shall not be infringed."

[muff528 3]

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...
The link does not work

....

OOPS! fixed it ...sorry

[rushmc 18]

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...
The link does not work

....

OOPS! fixed it ...sorry

I still cant get to it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[muff528 3]

http://yarchive.net/gun/politics/regulate.html

[rushmc 18]

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http://yarchive.net/gun/politics/regulate.html

Thanks

It works

and after a quick scan it backs my earlier post where I posted to the context of the time and the meanings and intent

But progressives wish, need, want and hope that they can get the Constitution to be views as a living evolving document

It is not viewed that way, their agenda is harder to push

Thanks for the link

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[yourmomma 0]

Thats even better. "regulate" and "regulated" now have the same veracity as "is".
God damd are lawyers good at blurring the meaning of the left and right when people face each other at opposing sides of a line.

[yourmomma 0]

Constitution to be views as a living evolving document

Yes it is,thats why we have amendments. Article I Section 2 was pretty clear that natives didn't count and slaves were 3/5th. 14 amendments later and GASP...... it evolved.

[mnealtx 0]

Regarding your question about the militia, some Second Amendment education for you: Link

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 18]

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Constitution to be views as a living evolving document

Yes it is,thats why we have amendments. Article I Section 2 was pretty clear that natives didn't count and slaves were 3/5th. 14 amendments later and GASP...... it evolved.

Not the same thing

THAT is clear

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[yourmomma 0]

Really? An oppion piece is what you offer? How about a conservative who does not regurgitate a party line? ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOaCemmsnNk

[yourmomma 0]

Explain the meaning of article 1 sec 2 ,and why the 14th amendment was not 'activist'.