Legal / Illegal

[BrokenR1 0]

Took this off another forum and didn't see it here. I've seen it this way as well as very much not this way so recognize that it does not cover every situation but still an interesting take.

[U]JOE vs. Lee[/U]
You have two families: "Joe Legal" and "Lee Illegal" . Both families have two parents,
two children, and live in California .

Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes $25.00 per hour
with taxes deducted.

Lee Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash
"under the table".

[U]Ready? Now pay attention....[/U]

Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year.
Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has $31,231.00.

Lee Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or $31,200.00 per year.
Lee Illegal pays no taxes. Lee Illegal now has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for his family at $600.00
per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $24,031.00.

Lee Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and local clinics and
emergency hospitals at a cost of $0.00 per year. Lee Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or welfare. Joe Legal pays
$500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per year. Joe Legal now has $18,031.00.

Lee Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps, WIC and welfare.
Lee Illegal still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Joe Legal now has 9,631 .00.

Lee Illegal receives a $500.00 per month Federal Rent Subsidy. Lee Illegal pays out that
$500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Lee Illegal still has $ 31,200.00.

Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for car insurance. Some of that is
uninsured motorist insurance. Joe Legal now has $7,231.00.

Lee Illegal says, "We don't need no stinkin' insurance!" and still has $31,200.00.

Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, etc..

Lee Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, and what
he sends out of the country every month..

Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work.

Lee Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.

Joe Legal's and Lee Illegal's children both attend the same elementary school. Joe Legal pays for his children's lunches, while Lee Illegal's children get a government sponsored lunch. Lee Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.

Now, when they reach college age, Joe Legal's kids may not get into a State School and may not qualify
for scholarships, grants or other tuition help, even though Joe has been paying for State Schools through
his taxes, while Lee Illegal's kids "go to the head of the class" because they are a minority.

Joe Legal and Lee Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services, but Joe paid for them
and Lee did not pay.

Do you get it, now?

If you vote for or support any politician that supports illegal aliens... You are part of the problem!

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[captain_stan 0]

Quote

If you vote for or support any politician that supports illegal aliens... You are part of the problem

Is it alright then to vote for a Democrat or Rebublican who merely sits on his hands and allows the problem to persist, hoping to gain the support of the future block of 2nd-generation voters?

Is it alright then to vote for a politician who wants to open the border and legalize this drain on the economy? Would it be any easier for the struggling American middle class to take responsibility for lifting foreigners out of poverty if they had legal status?

[wmw999 2,122]

Quote

Lee Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps, WIC and welfare.
...
Lee Illegal receives a $500.00 per month Federal Rent Subsidy.

Dunno about the other stuff, but illegal aliens are not eligible for that stuff. You have to have a social security number and papers showing that you're a permanent legal alien (i.e. not student, guest worker, etc).

Not saying illegal aliens are not a problem, just that good arguments are better sustained by facts, and not bullshit.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 18]

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Quote

Lee Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps, WIC and welfare.
...
Lee Illegal receives a $500.00 per month Federal Rent Subsidy.

Dunno about the other stuff, but illegal aliens are not eligible for that stuff. You have to have a social security number and papers showing that you're a permanent legal alien (i.e. not student, guest worker, etc).

Not saying illegal aliens are not a problem, just that good arguments are better sustained by facts, and not bullshit.

Wendy P.

In many areas they are

That is not bullshit

It is fact

How about in state tuition?

Is that bullshit?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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In many areas they are

That is not bullshit

It is fact

Can you give some examples? It's not "bullshit" in Georgia. Here you have to show proof of citizenship to obtain WIC or welfare.

Quote

How about in state tuition?

Is that bullshit?

In Georgia you have to prove legal residence (citizenship or green card or student visa) to be able to enroll at any state college or university.

Also "Joe Legal"'s kids would qualify for in-state tuition, so "Lee Illegal" has no advantage there.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

In many areas they are

That is not bullshit

It is fact

Can you give some examples? It's not "bullshit" in Georgia. Here you have to show proof of citizenship to obtain WIC or welfare.

Quote

How about in state tuition?

Is that bullshit?

In Georgia you have to prove legal residence (citizenship or green card or student visa) to be able to enroll at any state college or university.

Also "Joe Legal"'s kids would qualify for in-state tuition, so "Lee Illegal" has no advantage there.

Don

Good
That will stay that way unles the Feds step in

But I did say in many areas
Not all areas

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[pirana 0]

That post reads like a hyperbolic sound bite - gets people's attention, fires some people up, feeds the fires of hate. Easy to do that with unsubstantiated claims, peppered with outright BS.

I've no doubt some of it varies by state, but by painting a worst-case, hypothetical, broad-brush scenario that isn't true anywhere your credibility goes down the drain and you come off as just another whiner.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

You are forgetting (or ignoring) the fact that a lot of illegals pay taxes. Many work under the table for cash, but there are a lot that work "on the books."

Look at all the raids at the meat-packing plants. Those places aren't paying cash.
The illegals either use fake SSNs, which results in them not receiving any credit for what they've paid in; or they use IRS Tax ID numbers to pay taxes.

And the link conviently ignores that fire, police and local schools are mostly paid for out of property taxes. If you are paying rent, the landlord uses part of that to pay his property taxes.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[popsjumper 2]

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...but by painting a worst-case, hypothetical, broad-brush scenario(s).....

...saying I'm right and you're wrong.

But...but....

Pirana! It's all the rage in SC!
It's why we have so many replies in all the threads!
Think of the children!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,400]

>If you vote for or support any politician that supports illegal aliens... You are part of
>the problem!

If you vote for any politician who wants to keep illegal aliens illegal - YOU are part of the problem. Make anyone who wants to work here legal. Problem solved.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>If you vote for or support any politician that supports illegal aliens... You are part of
>the problem!

If you vote for any politician who wants to keep illegal aliens illegal - YOU are part of the problem. Make anyone who wants to work here legal. Problem solved.

So you are OK with members of Al Qaeda working here as long as they pay taxes?

[Southern_Man 0]

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Lee Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps, WIC and welfare.
...
Lee Illegal receives a $500.00 per month Federal Rent Subsidy.

Dunno about the other stuff, but illegal aliens are not eligible for that stuff. You have to have a social security number and papers showing that you're a permanent legal alien (i.e. not student, guest worker, etc).

Not saying illegal aliens are not a problem, just that good arguments are better sustained by facts, and not bullshit.

Wendy P.

Bingo. Also the claim about full health insurance is widely inaccurate as well. Illegal aliens are not generally eligible for Medicaid either (sometimes children or pregnant women are eligible depending on state but unless pregnant no adults are eligible if they are illegal).

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[headoverheels 291]

I don't know about all that, but somebody is overpaying Joe Illegal.

And I've seen lots of legal licensed contractors who don't pay their taxes.

[billvon 2,400]

>So you are OK with members of Al Qaeda working here as long as they pay taxes?

If they are criminals, put them in jail like any other criminals. Doesn't matter if they are citizens or not.

If their only "crime" is that they are Islamic, then yes, I am OK with them working here.

[BrokenR1 0]

Quote

>If you vote for or support any politician that supports illegal aliens... You are part of
>the problem!

If you vote for any politician who wants to keep illegal aliens illegal - YOU are part of the problem. Make anyone who wants to work here legal. Problem solved.

Yes yes, screw over all the people trying to do the right thing and come here legally. Make illegals legal, it worked last time right?

Quote

Dunno about the other stuff, but illegal aliens are not eligible for that stuff. You have to have a social security number and papers showing that you're a permanent legal alien (i.e. not student, guest worker, etc).

Not saying illegal aliens are not a problem, just that good arguments are better sustained by facts, and not bullshit.

Wendy P.

With regards to some of the other points in that letter I did find some info. Some of this is dated so I don't know what current laws are currently being enforced but...

http://www.gao.gov/products/HEHS-98-30.
http://articles.latimes.com/2004/jun/11/local/me-housing11
etc. etc.

Also, I do know some that pay taxes as well but most do not.

Like I said I didn't write it but I have seen many parts of it myself to be true.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[billvon 2,400]

>Yes yes, screw over all the people trying to do the right thing and come here legally.

Nope. Make sure everyone who wants to do the right thing and come here legally can. Right now they can't.

[BrokenR1 0]

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>Yes yes, screw over all the people trying to do the right thing and come here legally.

Nope. Make sure everyone who wants to do the right thing and come here legally can. Right now they can't.

While technically true that wouldn't work. People who want to come here legally have the opportunity and many do. However we cannot allow everyone to. There has to be a limit and it needs to be enforced.

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Rap is to music what etch-a-sketch is to art.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Yes yes, screw over all the people trying to do the right thing and come here legally.

It may be better to serve the 300,000,000 people already here with lower labor costs.

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Make illegals legal, it worked last time right?

America became the dominant nation in my great grand parents' time when everyone was welcome except the Chinese (due to the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882).

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Also, I do know some that pay taxes as well but most do not.

Most pay taxes. They just can't cash in on things like Social Security benefits and are more likely to be among the 53% when they have taxes withheld but don't file to claim credits like EITC.

As of 2005 the Pew Hispanic Center used census data to estimate 11.1 million illegal immigrants with 850,0000 arriving annually suggesting 10.3 million in 2004.

In 2004 the IRS received 9 million W2 forms with mismatched names and social security numbers with taxes withheld on 75% of them or about 6.8 million.

The same year the IRS received 2.5 million individual tax forms filed with Individual Taxpayer Identification Numbers instead of SSNs with many ITIN holders believed to be illegal immigrants.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>So you are OK with members of Al Qaeda working here as long as they pay taxes?

If they are criminals, put them in jail like any other criminals. Doesn't matter if they are citizens or not.

If their only "crime" is that they are Islamic, then yes, I am OK with them working here.

Suppose they are young and have no criminal record yet? Or suppose it's a middle aged woman who has recently been radicalized? How do you propose we sort them out?

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>Yes yes, screw over all the people trying to do the right thing and come here legally.

Nope. Make sure everyone who wants to do the right thing and come here legally can. Right now they can't.

While technically true that wouldn't work. People who want to come here legally have the opportunity and many do. However we cannot allow everyone to. There has to be a limit and it needs to be enforced.

Exactly. Who is going to pay their Social Security when they get old?

[billvon 2,400]

>People who want to come here legally have the opportunity and many do.

No, they don't. Per a poll taken in 148 countries outside the US, close to 165 million people say they would emigrate to the US if they could. The US quota for all immigrants is 700,000 a year. That means that only .4% of the people who want to come here legally can.

>There has to be a limit and it needs to be enforced.

Why?

[billvon 2,400]

>Suppose they are young and have no criminal record yet?

Then they are not criminals, and should not be jailed any more than a law-abiding member of the KKK should be jailed.

[mnealtx 0]

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>People who want to come here legally have the opportunity and many do.

No, they don't. Per a poll taken in 148 countries outside the US, close to 165 million people say they would emigrate to the US if they could. The US quota for all immigrants is 700,000 a year. That means that only .4% of the people who want to come here legally can.

That doesn't refute his statement - there *IS* a legal pathway.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,400]

>Exactly. Who is going to pay their Social Security when they get old?

The next immigrants, working legally and paying into Social Security.

[kallend 1,623]

You must be very glad that deportations of illegals are WAY UP under the Obama administration, compared to those under Bush.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.