mnealtx 0 #51 August 18, 2011 QuoteAnd are you really willing to say that if a doctor determines that carrying a child to term will put the mother at risk of death - that a politician should decide to put her life at risk? False analogy - health of the mother != whim of the motherMike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #52 August 18, 2011 Quote Would you want a politician to tell your daughter "I don't really care if you die, you're not terminating that pregnancy?" No; but there is a certain intellectual consistency (at least in part) between that example and the example of governments (which are comprised of politicians) conscripting people into the military and telling them - backed by the full weight of the law - "I don't really care if you die, you're going into combat". My example is tangential, of course; but it illustrates the point that governments, even in democratic republics, sometimes do make compulsory life-and-death decisions for their citizens that (legally) trump those citizens' personal choices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #53 August 18, 2011 Quote Are you saying that both parties should take responsibility by 'It's THEIR child.', in your statement? I sure do hope you're not, on the other hand, putting it all on the woman!? I'm a bit confused. Chuck Absolutely, both the man and the woman should accept responsibility. Unfortunately, society tends to prefer the avoidance of responsibility.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #54 August 18, 2011 >False analogy - health of the mother != whim of the mother And making abortion illegal does not allow for the health of the mother. Placing the decision with her and her doctor does allow for the health of the mother. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #55 August 18, 2011 Quote>False analogy - health of the mother != whim of the mother And making abortion illegal does not allow for the health of the mother. Placing the decision with her and her doctor does allow for the health of the mother. Except that's not what he said. He disagreed with the idea of late-term, non-medically necessary abortions, not all abortions.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #56 August 18, 2011 >He disagreed with the idea of late-term, non-medically necessary abortions, >not all abortions. I disagree with that idea too. It is generally the worst possible solution. However, it is the doctor and patient, and not politician, who should make the call on necessity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #57 August 18, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote [over simplification 101] - her choice .. and it's only murder after the birth Wow. Have you seen an ultrasound? You can't see Ultrasound Your smarter than that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound You cannot see the electrical-mechanical property of an ultrasonic wave without the aid of specialized equipment such as reflectoscopes or sonographic scanners. Firestone-Sperry scope http://www.ob-ultrasound.net/sperry.html Scopes have come along way since those days. What is seen is a representation of amplitudes at varying time of returning mechanical to electrical energy. The process is widely used in the NDT industry."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #58 August 18, 2011 Quote>You are really willing to say that an 8 month pregnancy can be terminated on the whim >of the mother? And are you really willing to say that if a doctor determines that carrying a child to term will put the mother at risk of death - that a politician should decide to put her life at risk? Would you want a politician to tell your daughter "I don't really care if you die, you're not terminating that pregnancy?" (to take the opposite emotional extreme) Until the moment of birth the life of the child and the mother are inextricably linked, and cannot be reduced to simple sound bites or simple rules. Abortion is morally wrong, and its "wrongness" is proportional to the imminence of the birth. But the final decision must rest with the mother and her doctor. Its far better for a preacher or a priest to control everything concerning basic health decisions....if she dies... it was GODS WILL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #59 August 18, 2011 QuoteQuote Are you saying that both parties should take responsibility by 'It's THEIR child.', in your statement? I sure do hope you're not, on the other hand, putting it all on the woman!? I'm a bit confused. Chuck Absolutely, both the man and the woman should accept responsibility. Unfortunately, society tends to prefer the avoidance of responsibility. 'Preciate you clarifying that for me. I was pretty sure, that's what you were saying and I agree, 1,000%! Also, those slackers who don't want to pay child support. I paid child support for my three kids and my only concern was that it was spent on the kids and not trips to Disneyland (which much of it was). I really couldn't do anything about it but... Guys need to man the fuck-up and if they are going to 'play' be prepared to pay!!! It' not totally, the woman's responsibility. Cheap excuses by spineless males, don't cut it either. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #60 August 19, 2011 QuoteQuote>You are really willing to say that an 8 month pregnancy can be terminated on the whim >of the mother? And are you really willing to say that if a doctor determines that carrying a child to term will put the mother at risk of death - that a politician should decide to put her life at risk? Would you want a politician to tell your daughter "I don't really care if you die, you're not terminating that pregnancy?" (to take the opposite emotional extreme) Until the moment of birth the life of the child and the mother are inextricably linked, and cannot be reduced to simple sound bites or simple rules. Abortion is morally wrong, and its "wrongness" is proportional to the imminence of the birth. But the final decision must rest with the mother and her doctor. I never said anything REMOTELY close to denying a late term abortion to save the life of the mother. you do know the definition of "whim"? let me help. 1. a sudden, passing, and often fanciful idea; impulsive or irrational thought. That does does not sound like a decision based upon advice from a medical expert. How you got from point A to point B I will never know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #61 August 19, 2011 QuoteAbortion is morally wrong, and its "wrongness" is proportional to the imminence of the birth.... While I agreed with the basic content of your post, it's this that has me worried. You state that as if it's fact when, in fact, it's merely opinion. And I suspect politically-driven opinion.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanJohnson 0 #62 August 22, 2011 QuoteQuoteAnd are you really willing to say that if a doctor determines that carrying a child to term will put the mother at risk of death - that a politician should decide to put her life at risk? False analogy - health of the mother != whim of the mother Let me ask you this Mnealtx, So we have a two time unwed mother pregnant with her third child. We know she can't take care of her first two and depends on foodstamps and welfare to raise them. Do we put roadblocks in front of her having an abortion and as a society take on the task of supporting the third child child through foodstamps and welfare or do we mind our own buisiness ,let her terminate the pregnancy and save the tax payers some cash? Because from where I sit it seems you can't bitch about "freeloading foodstamp spending welfare Brood Mares " if you are against abortion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #63 August 22, 2011 >1. a sudden, passing, and often fanciful idea; impulsive or irrational thought. >That does does not sound like a decision based upon advice from a medical expert. OK. If your position is that a woman with a "sudden, passing and fanciful" desire to have an abortion cannot get one, but a woman who makes a thoughtful, considered decision after consultation with her doctor can, then we are basically in agreement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #64 August 22, 2011 >You state that as if it's fact when, in fact, it's merely opinion. Of course. All morality is opinion. Once you put a legal definition on a moral stance, with penalties for non-compliance - then you've made it a law, which is quite different. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldwomanc6 38 #65 August 22, 2011 Whim? Seriously, does anyone think any woman makes the decision to terminate, on a whim? Not very likely.lisa WSCR 594 FB 1023 CBDB 9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 177 #66 August 22, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnd are you really willing to say that if a doctor determines that carrying a child to term will put the mother at risk of death - that a politician should decide to put her life at risk? False analogy - health of the mother != whim of the mother Let me ask you this Mnealtx, So we have a two time unwed mother pregnant with her third child. We know she can't take care of her first two and depends on foodstamps and welfare to raise them. Do we put roadblocks in front of her having an abortion and as a society take on the task of supporting the third child child through foodstamps and welfare or do we mind our own buisiness ,let her terminate the pregnancy and save the tax payers some cash? Because from where I sit it seems you can't bitch about "freeloading foodstamp spending welfare Brood Mares " if you are against abortion. A tired old scenario. Let's cut Planned Parenthood funding. Bad idea. IMHO Lots of folks would love to adopt a child. A better option, IMHO. No one wins in abortion, not the unborn, not the woman. IMHO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,150 #67 August 22, 2011 QuoteLots of folks would love to adopt a child. A better option, IMHO. No one wins in abortion, not the unborn, not the woman. IMHOTaking the pregnancy to completion is a greater health risk to the mother, as well as a significant impact on her life. Not every unplanned pregnancy is due to carelessness; there is birth control failure as well. Personally, I think that abortion belongs in the arsenal. It's a big gun, but it's no bigger than a 9-month pregnancy, with clothes, visibility, and activity limitations. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 177 #68 August 22, 2011 Kill a baby because of activity limitations?? Clothes and visibility issues?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #69 August 22, 2011 Quote don't cut it either. ? Explain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,150 #70 August 22, 2011 When does a fetus become a baby? I quite honestly don't believe it happens at conception. I think that "aborting" an 8-month fetus is something that should be reserves for literally saving the mother's life (and even then all attempts should also be made to save the baby if possible). At 6 weeks, it's just not a baby yet. Really. There are lots of pregnancies that end at that point without the mother ever knowing she was pregnant. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #71 August 22, 2011 Quote At 6 weeks, it's just not a baby yet. Really. There are lots of pregnancies that end at that point without the mother ever knowing she was pregnant. Wendy P. Given the number of miscarriages that happen throughout the 9 month period, how long until a brilliant pro-lifer wants to start charging women for negligent homicide? Seems like a logical extension, esp if they ever succeeded in banning abortion. When we're talking about the subject of late term abortions, which are really a red herring for abortion in general, the greatest danger is in having legislators that pretend to be medically competent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #72 August 22, 2011 ***Quote>1. a sudden, passing, and often fanciful idea; impulsive or irrational thought. >That does does not sound like a decision based upon advice from a medical expert. OK. If your position is that a woman with a "sudden, passing and fanciful" desire to have an abortion cannot get one, but a woman who makes a thoughtful, considered decision after consultation with her doctor can, then we are basically in agreement. For late term abortions, it should only be to protect the health of the mother, For all other abortions, i'm as liberal as they come. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #73 August 22, 2011 QuoteQuote don't cut it either. ? Explain in other words... not acceptable. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #74 August 22, 2011 QuoteNot every unplanned pregnancy is due to carelessness; there is birth control failure as well. How many of those are failures to take it properly? QuotePersonally, I think that abortion belongs in the arsenal. It's a big gun... Nice colorful terminology there Wendy...But "a big gun?" Compared to the gun deaths per year, abortion is more like a nuclear holocaust.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #75 August 22, 2011 Quote At 6 weeks, it's just not a baby yet. Really. There are lots of pregnancies that end at that point without the mother ever knowing she was pregnant. Then it's interesting how YOU know about them...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
