winsor 186
QuoteBelief is anathema to science. Science is all about skepticism. Check your assumptions, challenge to fail, peer review and all that. Belief is about suspension of doubt and adherence to some synthetic "truth" - regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If you think science and belief are compatible, you know less than nothing about science.
Winsor, are you really denying that you also begin with presuppositions which then influence how you interpret scientific results? Dude, that is dishonest. Everyone has to begin somewhere. At some point, you must presuppose what you cannot prove in order to progress in this line of thought/study. We just begin with different presuppositions. Mine begins with God as the Prime Mover. All other scientific study is then filtered through that worldview. Your worldview does not account for a beginning, apparently, so there is a big gap. Nevertheless, your worldview progresses with that assumption (unless you again presuppose that everything just always was (just as lacking, in my opinion)) All that follows must be interpreted as such...by something, again, which you cannot prove. I'd still consider it admirable if you'd just admit your presupposition/assumptions, however. I mean, we all know where you stand but it would be nice to see a little honesty.
Added: The ironic thing is, you must borrow even the ability to reason from God to then reason against Him. Sad.
jakee 1,255
QuoteWe just begin with different presuppositions.
Right. Our presupposition is that evidence is useful. Your presuppositions are that A) evidence is not useful and B) a being for which their is no evidence definitely exists and definitely created the universe and you know exactly how he did it.
QuoteI mean, we all know where you stand but it would be nice to see a little honesty.
Says the guy who regularly quotes AiG, one of the worst lots of liars for jesus you could ever hope to find? You can fuck right off.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
jclalor 12
QuoteQuoteQuoteBelief is anathema to science. Science is all about skepticism. Check your assumptions, challenge to fail, peer review and all that. Belief is about suspension of doubt and adherence to some synthetic "truth" - regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If you think science and belief are compatible, you know less than nothing about science.
Winsor, are you really denying that you also begin with presuppositions which then influence how you interpret scientific results? Dude, that is dishonest. Everyone has to begin somewhere. At some point, you must presuppose what you cannot prove in order to progress in this line of thought/study. We just begin with different presuppositions. Mine begins with God as the Prime Mover. All other scientific study is then filtered through that worldview. Your worldview does not account for a beginning, apparently, so there is a big gap. Nevertheless, your worldview progresses with that assumption (unless you again presuppose that everything just always was (just as lacking, in my opinion)) All that follows must be interpreted as such...by something, again, which you cannot prove. I'd still consider it admirable if you'd just admit your presupposition/assumptions, however. I mean, we all know where you stand but it would be nice to see a little honesty.
Added: The ironic thing is, you must borrow even the ability to reason from God to then reason against Him. Sad.
To claim that a position based on science is false, simply because it can't presently explain the beginning is disingenuous at best. Religion has always been on, and will continue to be on the losing end when it comes to science.
As an Atheist, I have nothing I need to prove, not one thing. The burden of proof is always on the claimant (You) and your evidence is sorely lacking.
Your logic is circular; When I ask you why you believe in God, you tell me because the bible tells you so. When I ask you how the bible could be inerrant, you tell me because God inspired it. You just go around in circles.
Think about how silly it would be if I told you I was abducted by aliens and it was then your job to prove me wrong.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
QuoteYou can fuck right off.
I wasn't even talking to you. Why must your response include the comment listed above?
jakee 1,255
QuoteWhy must your response include the comment listed above?
Why did your post include such immense hypocrisy?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
winsor 186
QuoteBelief is anathema to science. Science is all about skepticism. Check your assumptions, challenge to fail, peer review and all that. Belief is about suspension of doubt and adherence to some synthetic "truth" - regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If you think science and belief are compatible, you know less than nothing about science.
Winsor, are you really denying that you also begin with presuppositions which then influence how you interpret scientific results?
Dude, that is dishonest.Quote
No, as usual you have no idea what I am saying or not saying.
Everyone has to begin somewhere. At some point, you must presuppose what you cannot prove in order to progress in this line of thought/study. We just begin with different presuppositions. Mine begins with God as the Prime Mover.Quote
I wholeheartedly agree, and that is what I have come to expect from you.
All other scientific study is then filtered through that worldview. Your worldview does not account for a beginning, apparently, so there is a big gap. Nevertheless, your worldview progresses with that assumption (unless you again presuppose that everything just always was (just as lacking, in my opinion))Quote
Cool. How come you did not pick the Tooth Fairy, as a matter of sheer equivalence?
All that follows must be interpreted as such...by something, again, which you cannot prove. I'd still consider it admirable if you'd just admit your presupposition/assumptions, however.Quote
As usual, everything you conclude would require a great deal of improvement to rise to the standard of being simply wrong.
I mean, we all know where you stand but it would be nice to see a little honesty.Quote
I would be horrified if whether or not you found something admirable was of the slightest concern. Frankly, if you approved of anything you "thought" I said or did, I would be concerned.
Added: The ironic thing is, you must borrow even the ability to reason from God to then reason against Him. Sad.Quote
You know less than nothing, and do not know from honesty.
Gee, you're not just sad, you're sorry.
billvon 2,400
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Your one warning. Cut it out.
QuoteTo claim that a position based on science is false, simply because it can't presently explain the beginning is disingenuous at best. Religion has always been on, and will continue to be on the losing end when it comes to science.
I absolutely do not claim that a position based on science is false. The problem comes with our disagreement on historical science (based on "presuppositions on beginnings and progression over "millions of years") which is unprovable.) You can only theorize based on very big assumptions. Those assumptions influence your interpretation of results in everything else. It's your worldview. Everybody's got one. It doesn't matter if your Stephen Hawking of Jakee. As opposed to operational science (what we can see, feel, touch, experiment with in a lab, reproduce, falsify, test, etc.). I've got no problem with that. That kind of science (depending on your worldview, of course) is what we see in the world today. Just as the bible describes.
QuoteAs an Atheist, I have nothing I need to prove, not one thing. The burden of proof is always on the claimant (You) and your evidence is sorely lacking.
That's the easy way out. I might agree with you if you weren't required to presuppose just like I do.
QuoteYour logic is circular; When I ask you why you believe in God, you tell me because the bible tells you so. When I ask you how the bible could be inerrant, you tell me because God inspired it. You just go around in circles.
I don't believe I ever said you should just believe in God "because the Bible tells you so." I do agree that it is sufficient, however, for belief. But...God didn't leave you with that just like He didn't leave all those before the Bible was written with that. We have been given the creation and your conscience as proof apart from the special revelation of scripture. The Bible just makes it personal. That is why I am not just an intelligent design guy and am a creationist. You, on the other hand (unless you believe that everything always just existed on its own) can't even go in a "circle." You must step off a rock cliff and just assume that the world just somehow, on its own, had an explosive beginning, organized, and sustains itself. But...it's still an assumption on which everything else is balanced.
QuoteThink about how silly it would be if I told you I was abducted by aliens and it was then your job to prove me wrong.
Silly.
QuoteExtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I agree.
Coreece 190
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote
"Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? "
I would say "If you have to ask, then you aren't who you claim to be"
You guys don't know what I'm talking about, do you?
Nope. I'm OK with it though
No qualms there, but if, in the future you'd like to have a civil discussion about God and Scripture, perhaps it might be benificial to familiarize yourself with the text.
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...
QuoteNo, as usual you have no idea what I am saying or not saying.
QuoteI wholeheartedly agree, and that is what I have come to expect from you.
QuoteCool. How come you did not pick the Tooth Fairy, as a matter of sheer equivalence?
QuoteAs usual, everything you conclude would require a great deal of improvement to rise to the standard of being simply wrong.
QuoteI would be horrified if whether or not you found something admirable was of the slightest concern. Frankly, if you approved of anything you "thought" I said or did, I would be concerned.
QuoteYou know less than nothing, and do not know from honesty.
QuoteGee, you're not just sad, you're sorry.
That was impressive. Absolutely none of the replies above had any substance to them at all. How do you do it winsor?
maadmax 0
Beyond wrong.
Belief is anathema to science.
Science is all about skepticism. Check your assumptions, challenge to fail, peer review and all that.
Belief is about suspension of doubt and adherence to some synthetic "truth" - regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
If you think science and belief are compatible, you know less than nothing about science.
BSBD,
Winsor
Belief is anathema to science.
Science is all about skepticism. Check your assumptions, challenge to fail, peer review and all that.
Belief is about suspension of doubt and adherence to some synthetic "truth" - regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
If you think science and belief are compatible, you know less than nothing about science.
BSBD,
Winsor
Believe it or not, I do enjoy your theatrical responses. Science and spirituality are dimensional, so much so that science can't even locate or identify what give us our self-consciousness(soul). Saying that we are just a compilation of neurons firing in a certain order is bullshit. If that works for you then your criticisms of faith are unsubstantiated. Physical truth and spiritual truth are discovered by different methods. That difference does not negate the validity of each when combined to form a unified reality. The Bible tells us to test the objects of our faith to see if they produce the desired results just like with physical reality.
...
winsor 186
QuoteGee, you're not just sad, you're sorry.
That was impressive. Absolutely none of the replies above had any substance to them at all. How do you do it winsor?
Aw, come on little fella, you don't give yourself enough credit. When it comes to going on and on without saying anything of merit, you are the master.
I have to assume it is intentional, and I am impressed.
If, OTOH, what you post is serious, then I may as well respond to negative meaning with none. It is not reasonable that you should expect me to clarify that which is glaringly apparent to the casual observer - assuming you really can not figure it out on your own.
I have known too many people who were actually pretty bright and delighted in getting a rise out of people by carefully crafted nonsense, and I prefer to give you credit as being among their number.
Good show!
RonD1120 58
I am always taken back by you scientific guys that refuse to accept the evidence of changed lives through personal testimony.
Do you guys have anything to offer in the way of hope besides sex, drugs, money, power, etc?
Do you guys have anything to offer in the way of hope besides sex, drugs, money, power, etc?
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.
jakee 1,255
QuoteI am always taken back by you scientific guys that refuse to accept the evidence of changed lives through personal testimony.
We hear the same testimony from any number of religions. What makes yours special?
QuoteDo you guys have anything to offer in the way of hope besides sex, drugs, money, power, etc?
You you decide what's real on the basis of what makes you feel warm and fuzzy?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
winsor 186
QuoteI am always taken back by you scientific guys that refuse to accept the evidence of changed lives through personal testimony.
Do you guys have anything to offer in the way of hope besides sex, drugs, money, power, etc?
Correlation does not imply causality.
The shaman that goes out every single morning and performs the ritual to raise the sun has an important social function. The suggestion that there is a causal relationship between the two is easily refuted.
Neither you nor I drink nor take drugs, since Reagan was president on my part. Does that prove or disprove the existence of Zeus, Baal or the Loch Ness Monster in and of itself? Not a chance.
I think it is great that you are enjoying life. Mazel Tov.
I think your rationalizations are complete tripe, but it is still good for you to have a fine quality of life.
Some of the happiest people I know are case studies of how ignorance is bliss - and I am a bit envious. My son has never known anything but love, care, attention and kindness, and he is the sweetest kid I have ever met. Ah, if I didn't know now what I didn't know then...
BSBD,
Winsor
billvon 2,400
>You must step off a rock cliff and just assume that the world just somehow, on its own,
>had an explosive beginning, organized, and sustains itself. But...it's still an assumption
>on which everything else is balanced.
And you have to make a similar assumption on the origins of God.
>had an explosive beginning, organized, and sustains itself. But...it's still an assumption
>on which everything else is balanced.
And you have to make a similar assumption on the origins of God.
beowulf 1
Not exactly the same thing.
Evolution has a lot of evidence to support it. There is still so much unknown that we may never know. But it makes much more sense then simply saying "god did it".
Yet there is no evidence of any deity much less the Christian God.
Evolution has a lot of evidence to support it. There is still so much unknown that we may never know. But it makes much more sense then simply saying "god did it".
Yet there is no evidence of any deity much less the Christian God.
ECVZZ 0
Max-
I appreciate your attempt at explaining your concept of faith based religion. I have no doubt that you're sincere in your belief system, and certainly respect your right to believe as you wish. I mean this sincerely, and without sarcasm.
At the same time, I do need to point out that I haven't "fretted" about religion since my teen years. All the years in between have been spent with an open mind concerning religion (more properly, concerning the existence of a god, or supreme being), yet I've still not found the slightest evidence to convince me one way or the other.
The kingdom of god is not within me; I have x-rays and MRI's to prove it. (That was sarcasm. 
). You make the statement
I interpret this to mean that you "enter the kingdom of god simply by expelling all doubt from your mind, and accepting that a god exists."QuoteYou enter by the renewing and transformation of your mind.
The term Agnostic, when broken down into it's sub-parts simply means "pertaining to a lack of knowledge." Suffix: ic, meaning "pertaining to"; Root word: Gnosis, Greek in origin and meaning "knowledge"; and the prefix: A, meaning "no, or not".
So one who is agnostic is simply saying they have insuffucient knowledge to sway them to either believe or disbelieve in a god, satan, or a heaven or hell. I do not profess to know that these things do not exist; the situation is quite the opposite. I can prove neither.
As far as the 5 senses; they allow you to "construct your reality" regardless of faith. If I touch a red hot object with a bare hand, it is quite certain that I will receive a severe burn. Faith does not make it so, physics and the laws of thermodynamics do.
Regards,
Greg
G. Jones
"I've never been quarantined. But the more I look around, the more I think it might not be a bad idea."
Shotgun 1
QuoteI am always taken back by you scientific guys that refuse to accept the evidence of changed lives through personal testimony.
I see that as evidence that belief in a god can help to change some people's lives. But it is not evidence that a god actually exists.
QuoteI am always taken back by you scientific guys that refuse to accept the evidence of changed lives through personal testimony.
One can just as easily say that the power of leprechauns delivered him/her from the grip of alcohol/drugs. As with saying that a "God" delivered them, there is no "evidence" that the "Almighty Leprechaun" changed ones life. Would you not question such a claim? Or, would you look at them and say "why yes, you have changed! GLORY BE THE ALMIGHTY LEPRECHAUNS!" I doubt that you would.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
billvon 2,400
>Gee, you're not just sad, you're sorry.
And your one warning. The points under discussion are a valid target for attacks; the poster is not.
And your one warning. The points under discussion are a valid target for attacks; the poster is not.
I have no problem with Science and belief in God. The two mesh perfectly. The Bible is the Word of God relating to spiritual phenomena, Science is the expression of God in physical form. It is up to us to make sense out of what He has given us.
Beyond wrong.
Belief is anathema to science.
Science is all about skepticism. Check your assumptions, challenge to fail, peer review and all that.
Belief is about suspension of doubt and adherence to some synthetic "truth" - regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
If you think science and belief are compatible, you know less than nothing about science.
BSBD,
Winsor