ChangoLanzao 0 #126 July 2, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Bow and Arrow?????? Designed to Kill from day one! Yep, pure killin' machines they are. On the other hand, the Chinese invented gunpowder, and used it only to make pretty fireworks in the sky. Therefore, every gun, which uses gunpowder, is nothing more than just a celebratory fireworks launcher. So there's nothing to worry about from guns! That's the logic that these "original intent" folks want to use, to forever assign some attribute to an object, no matter how much they have changed from their original design in the meantime. So, if that's the argument they want to make, then guns are nothing but fireworks machines! Meanwhile, automobiles, which are NOT designed to kill, manage to kill 40,000 people per year. Many more than die from guns. So the whole argument about what they're "designed" to do, is ridiculous. Regarding the bow and arrow, at one time in history the law in England REQUIRED every man to own and be well-practiced with the longbow. They were considered essential to common defense against enemies. Just like America's 2nd Amendment. Virgin Utah has a city ordanince requiring every house have a gun...Burgulary is unheard of in virgin! Not quite. The ordinance exempts felons, residents bound by restraining orders, residents with physical and mental disabilities and anyone who refuses to own a gun for religious and philosophical reasons. I wouldn't be surprised if those exemptions pretty much cover the entire population of Virgin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #127 July 3, 2010 It is pretty much a bogus law, but it works, it keep thieves at bay! And makes it obvious , if soemoen so wishes, they are free to protect themselves and their families! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #128 July 6, 2010 Home Invasion Suspect Shot http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0710/752474.html Clerk fatally shoots robbery suspect http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/07/05/1716023/clerk-fatally-shoots-robbery-suspect.html Robbers pick wrong target; two shot, one killed by gun-toting victim http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/jul/03/robbers-pick-wrong-target/ Homeowner shoots, kills intruder http://www.freep.com/article/20100705/NEWS02/100705016/1001/NEWS/Inkster-homeowner-shoots-kills-intruder Concealed weapons permit holder saves sister http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/7094901.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #129 July 6, 2010 QuoteIt means that that was the only design goal when designing them. Sorry, I have seen several HG designs that were not designed to kill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #130 July 6, 2010 QuoteApparently not! From another thread here: "My pecker just moved thinking about firing an M16 again." Not that there's anything wrong with that. Moving is not the same as getting bigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #131 July 6, 2010 QuoteI see you guys have looked it up and know that it's phony, so you wont even post the quote. Prove it. I see you still don't even know the quote, so you just yell "Phony" at everything. Shame you are again unable to back up your claims. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ajmclean 0 #132 July 6, 2010 QuoteQuoteGee, there appears to be some posters conspicuously absent in this thread. If today is an average day in the USA, some 80 - 100 people will die from gunshots today. Satisfied? Gunshots from whom? Bad guys, felons? Police, armed citizens defending themselves? If the majority of those dead from gunshots are the bad guys shor by police or armed citizens, who cares? They're dead and no longer a burden or threat. Or better yet, if they're bad guys shot by bad guys, so much the better. Good riddance.Mack The Knife "IT IS SAID THAT THE WARRIOR'S IS THE TWOFOLD WAY OF PEN AND SWORD, AND HE SHOULD HAVE A TASTE FOR BOTH WAYS." MIYAMOTO MUSASHI, A BOOK OF FIVE RINGS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #133 July 7, 2010 QuoteQuote If today is an average day in the USA, some 80 - 100 people will die from gunshots today. Satisfied? Gunshots from whom? Bad guys, felons? Police, armed citizens defending themselves? If the majority of those dead from gunshots are the bad guys shor by police or armed citizens, who cares? They're dead and no longer a burden or threat. Or better yet, if they're bad guys shot by bad guys, so much the better. Good riddance. See my response. It was more mindless propaganda from the gun grabbers, with a lot of rounding up. Most of the gunshots are self inflicted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #134 July 7, 2010 QuoteSee my response. It was more mindless propaganda from the gun grabbers, with a lot of rounding up. Most of the gunshots are self inflicted. Great response from a Wisconsin AG, here. Snippet: QuoteThis Supreme Court ruling is binding on all states and local governments, and immediately renders some of Wisconsin’s current laws unconstitutional. Therefore, in keeping with my oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, I hereby declare that this office will no longer accept law enforcement referrals for violations of the following statutes: Section 167.31, prohibiting uncased or loaded firearms in vehicles; Section 941.23, prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons, including firearms; Section 941.235, prohibiting the possession of firearms in public buildings; Section 941.237, prohibiting the possession of firearms in establishments where alcohol may be sold or served; and, Section 941.24, prohibiting the possession of knives that open with a button, or by gravity, or thrust, or movement. All of these statutes constitute unjustifiable infringements on the fundamental right of every law-abiding American to arm themselves for self-defense and the defense of their loved ones, co-workers, homes and communities. This change also invalidates Jackson County Ordinance Sections 9.01 (firearms in public buildings) and 9.29 (CCW).Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carmenc 0 #135 July 7, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote If today is an average day in the USA, some 80 - 100 people will die from gunshots today. Satisfied? Gunshots from whom? Bad guys, felons? Police, armed citizens defending themselves? If the majority of those dead from gunshots are the bad guys shor by police or armed citizens, who cares? They're dead and no longer a burden or threat. Or better yet, if they're bad guys shot by bad guys, so much the better. Good riddance. See my response. It was more mindless propaganda from the gun grabbers, with a lot of rounding up. Most of the gunshots are self inflicted. Are you claiming that if a gunshot is self-inflicted then the person can't die? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #136 July 7, 2010 QuoteAre you claiming that if a gunshot is self-inflicted then the person can't die? Nope. But a suicide is a lot different from a homicide, and lumping them both together as "gun deaths" is misleading. But that's what the gun-o-phobes like to do, in order to try and fool people into believing that guns are a bigger problem than they actually are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #137 July 7, 2010 QuoteQuoteAre you claiming that if a gunshot is self-inflicted then the person can't die? Nope. But a suicide is a lot different from a homicide, and lumping them both together as "gun deaths" is misleading. But that's what the gun-o-phobes like to do, in order to try and fool people into believing that guns are a bigger problem than they actually are. Let's ask carmen a more direct question: Do you think it's lying to group suicides in with murders and accidental deaths to make the problem seem 140% larger than it really is? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #138 July 9, 2010 Since Chicago has been a focus lately I found this article and the quote below very interesting. This is a police officer commenting on an event where, in a police parking lot a uniformed officer had his own gun taken from him and then he was murdered by his own gun QuoteAsked about what could be done about security at police parking lots, Weis said police facilities have video surveillance, but added that little could be done to prevent such attacks by people with little regard for human life. "There's really no level of security you can put up that will prevent a person like that from attacking someone. And unfortunately we lost an officer in this case," he said. http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/07/suspect-charged-in-officers-shooting-death.html"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #139 July 9, 2010 QuoteAsked about what could be done about security at police parking lots, Weis said police facilities have video surveillance, but added that little could be done to prevent such attacks by people with little regard for human life. Yes, it's not about the gun, it's about "people with little regard for human life". Let's look at the murderers history:- A convicted felon - Arrested in 2006 for wounding his own brother with a .32-caliber handgun - The case was later dismissed. - Convicted of possession of a controlled substance in 2006. - Criminal record includes 21 arrests. - Mentally disabled man.Those are the factors responsible for this unfortunate murder. He never should have been running around loose on the street to begin with. This is a justice system failure, not a gun policy failure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #140 July 12, 2010 Armed robbery suspect in critical condition after gun battle http://www.macon.com/2010/07/06/1186465/armed-robbery-leads-to-gun-battle.html#ixzz0tEqhKbsw Man shoots neighbor's dog after it lunges at delivery man http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_15402861?nclick_check=1 Clerk kills robber at convenience store http://charlotte.news14.com/content/local_news/charlotte/627476/clerk-kills-robber-at-monroe-convenience-store Elderly man shoots, kills burglar http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_15384915?nclick_check=1 Man Tries To Rob Military Member, Is Shot http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Man-Tries-To-Rob-Military-Member-Is-Shot/1RUTebe2A0i38dGtmFMiSw.cspx 17-year-old Robber Shot http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_3e060492-8c99-11df-b6e0-0017a4a78c22.html Robber's killer did what had to be done http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/letters/letters-robbers-killer-did-what-had-to-be-797275.html Man Killed in Overnight Shooting http://www.wtkr.com/news/dp-nws-homicide-20100710,0,4033038.story Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #141 July 12, 2010 Quote Armed robbery suspect in critical condition after gun battle http://www.macon.com/2010/07/06/1186465/armed-robbery-leads-to-gun-battle.html#ixzz0tEqhKbsw Man shoots neighbor's dog after it lunges at delivery man http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_15402861?nclick_check=1 Clerk kills robber at convenience store http://charlotte.news14.com/content/local_news/charlotte/627476/clerk-kills-robber-at-monroe-convenience-store Elderly man shoots, kills burglar http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_15384915?nclick_check=1 Man Tries To Rob Military Member, Is Shot http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Man-Tries-To-Rob-Military-Member-Is-Shot/1RUTebe2A0i38dGtmFMiSw.cspx 17-year-old Robber Shot http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_3e060492-8c99-11df-b6e0-0017a4a78c22.html Robber's killer did what had to be done http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/letters/letters-robbers-killer-did-what-had-to-be-797275.html Man Killed in Overnight Shooting http://www.wtkr.com/news/dp-nws-homicide-20100710,0,4033038.story *Sounds* like a lot of leaded rifle/gun fire all over your country. Are you proud about this? dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #142 July 12, 2010 Quote Quote Bow and Arrow?????? Designed to Kill from day one! Yep, pure killin' machines they are. On the other hand, the Chinese invented gunpowder, and used it only to make pretty fireworks in the sky. Therefore, every gun, which uses gunpowder, is nothing more than just a celebratory fireworks launcher. So there's nothing to worry about from guns! That's the logic that these "original intent" folks want to use, to forever assign some attribute to an object, no matter how much they have changed from their original design in the meantime. So, if that's the argument they want to make, then guns are nothing but fireworks machines! Meanwhile, automobiles, which are NOT designed to kill, manage to kill 40,000 people per year. Many more than die from guns. So the whole argument about what they're "designed" to do, is ridiculous. Regarding the bow and arrow, at one time in history the law in England REQUIRED every man to own and be well-practiced with the longbow. They were considered essential to common defense against enemies. Just like America's 2nd Amendment. The english law still stands and was in fact used this year. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/10300924.stmExperienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #143 July 12, 2010 Quote Quote Armed robbery suspect in critical condition after gun battle http://www.macon.com/2010/07/06/1186465/armed-robbery-leads-to-gun-battle.html#ixzz0tEqhKbsw Man shoots neighbor's dog after it lunges at delivery man http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_15402861?nclick_check=1 Clerk kills robber at convenience store http://charlotte.news14.com/content/local_news/charlotte/627476/clerk-kills-robber-at-monroe-convenience-store Elderly man shoots, kills burglar http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_15384915?nclick_check=1 Man Tries To Rob Military Member, Is Shot http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Man-Tries-To-Rob-Military-Member-Is-Shot/1RUTebe2A0i38dGtmFMiSw.cspx 17-year-old Robber Shot http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_3e060492-8c99-11df-b6e0-0017a4a78c22.html Robber's killer did what had to be done http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/letters/letters-robbers-killer-did-what-had-to-be-797275.html Man Killed in Overnight Shooting http://www.wtkr.com/news/dp-nws-homicide-20100710,0,4033038.story *Sounds* like a lot of leaded rifle/gun fire all over your country. Are you proud about this? You will never convince a person that their belief system is flawed or wrong. Part of the problem with the gun debate is there is no right or wrong to it. In reality both sides are partly right and it would be difficult to prove without doubt who is right. John makes a valid point that it is all about culture. My personal viewpoint is that guns for self-defence is a flawed concept in more than 90% of cases as most people are not sufficiently trained nor in a state of mind to be "safe and rational" in a time of crisis. I know that there are stats out there that show that quite a high percentage of shooting victims are shot with their own weapon, however as with most human rational most people believe that they are "above average".Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #144 July 12, 2010 Quote Quote Armed robbery suspect in critical condition after gun battle http://www.macon.com/2010/07/06/1186465/armed-robbery-leads-to-gun-battle.html#ixzz0tEqhKbsw Man shoots neighbor's dog after it lunges at delivery man http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_15402861?nclick_check=1 Clerk kills robber at convenience store http://charlotte.news14.com/content/local_news/charlotte/627476/clerk-kills-robber-at-monroe-convenience-store Elderly man shoots, kills burglar http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_15384915?nclick_check=1 Man Tries To Rob Military Member, Is Shot http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Man-Tries-To-Rob-Military-Member-Is-Shot/1RUTebe2A0i38dGtmFMiSw.cspx 17-year-old Robber Shot http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_3e060492-8c99-11df-b6e0-0017a4a78c22.html Robber's killer did what had to be done http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/letters/letters-robbers-killer-did-what-had-to-be-797275.html Man Killed in Overnight Shooting http://www.wtkr.com/news/dp-nws-homicide-20100710,0,4033038.story *Sounds* like a lot of leaded rifle/gun fire all over your country. Are you proud about this? No. www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/12/national/main6671007.shtml Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #145 July 12, 2010 Quote I know that there are stats out there that show that quite a high percentage of shooting victims are shot with their own weapon By all means, please provide these stats you speak of.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,351 #146 July 12, 2010 QuoteQuote I know that there are stats out there that show that quite a high percentage of shooting victims are shot with their own weapon By all means, please provide these stats you speak of. I couldn't find any stats with a quick search, but I seem to recall that approximatley 1/3 of police officers who are shot (or it could be "are killed") are shot with their own duty weapon. Totally different set of circumstances from the average civilian."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #147 July 12, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuote I know that there are stats out there that show that quite a high percentage of shooting victims are shot with their own weapon By all means, please provide these stats you speak of. I couldn't find any stats with a quick search, but I seem to recall that approximatley 1/3 of police officers who are shot (or it could be "are killed") are shot with their own duty weapon. Totally different set of circumstances from the average civilian. Very true - I found this, from the after word of Gary Kleck's book, Guns and Self Defense (emphasis mine) - QuoteIt has also been claimed that many people who attempt to use guns for self-protection have the gun taken from them by the criminal and used against them. Although this type of incident is not totally unknown, it too is extremely rare. In the 1979-1985 National-Crime-Victimization-Survey sample, it was possible to identify crime incidents in which the victim used a gun for protection and lost a gun to the offender(s). At most, 1% of defensive gun uses resulted in the offender taking a gun away from the victim. Even these few cases did not necessarily involve the offender snatching a gun out of the victim's hands. Instead a burglar might, for example, have been leaving a home with one of the household's guns when a resident attempted to stop him using another household gun. Thus, the 1% figure probably represents an upper limit. Some people have misinterpreted data on police killings as indicating that even trained police officers can have their guns taken away while attempting to use them for self-defense. With about 600,000 sworn officers carrying guns on duty, and an average of about 68 killed per year, about eight of which per year were killed with their own weapons, this would imply an annual risk of 1.4 police officers killed with their own guns per 100,000 officers. More misleading still was the suggestion that these rare killings bore on the issue of the risks of defensive gun use. In a detailed study of killings of officers, the FBI found that, among 11 officers who were killed with their own guns, only one involved a gun taken from the victim officer's hand. Since actually using a gun for self-defense would have to involve an officer holding the gun, this implies that cases of officers killed with their own guns almost never involve an attempt by the victim officer to use the gun for self-defense. Instead guns were typically taken from the officer's holster or vehicle. Police officers are almost never killed by offenders who took their guns away while the officers were trying to use the guns defensively. Police killings therefore offer no support for the notion that using guns for self-defense is risky. Based on nationally representative samples of crime incidents reported in the National Crime Victimization Surveys, victims who use guns for self-protection were less likely to be injured or to lose property than otherwise similar victims who used other forms of self-protection or who did not resist at all. For example, among robbery victims who used guns, only 17% were injured and only 31% lost property, compared to 25% injury rates and 88% property loss rates among victims who did not resist at all, and 33% injury rates and 65% property loss rates among all robbery victims. Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #148 July 12, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Armed robbery suspect in critical condition after gun battle http://www.macon.com/2010/07/06/1186465/armed-robbery-leads-to-gun-battle.html#ixzz0tEqhKbsw Man shoots neighbor's dog after it lunges at delivery man http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_15402861?nclick_check=1 Clerk kills robber at convenience store http://charlotte.news14.com/content/local_news/charlotte/627476/clerk-kills-robber-at-monroe-convenience-store Elderly man shoots, kills burglar http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_15384915?nclick_check=1 Man Tries To Rob Military Member, Is Shot http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/Man-Tries-To-Rob-Military-Member-Is-Shot/1RUTebe2A0i38dGtmFMiSw.cspx 17-year-old Robber Shot http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_3e060492-8c99-11df-b6e0-0017a4a78c22.html Robber's killer did what had to be done http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/letters/letters-robbers-killer-did-what-had-to-be-797275.html Man Killed in Overnight Shooting http://www.wtkr.com/news/dp-nws-homicide-20100710,0,4033038.story *Sounds* like a lot of leaded rifle/gun fire all over your country. Are you proud about this? No. www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/12/national/main6671007.shtml When it is victims getting to defend themselves? HELL YES! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #149 July 13, 2010 QuoteQuote I know that there are stats out there that show that quite a high percentage of shooting victims are shot with their own weapon By all means, please provide these stats you speak of. I have done a quick search and it is really difficult to wade through the crap out there, to find actual percentages, but there are stories littered through the first few pages - so I can't provide a link. The source of my information was a police officer from when I grew up in southern africa, and he warned me that it was not uncommon for people to wake-up in the night during a burglary only to find that the intruder already had found the persons weapon and had possession of it.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #150 July 13, 2010 Man shot during apparent home invasion http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=12789001 Bouncer killed knife-wielding patron http://www.startribune.com/local/98246694.html?elr=KArks8c7PaP3E77K_3c::D3aDhUMEaPc:E7_ec7PaP3iUiacyKUnciaec8O7EyU Would-Be Robber Shot, Killed During Break-In http://www.ksat.com/news/24229026/detail.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
