What does college mean?

[Amazon 7]

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There's a side discussion taking over the liberal mods thread about whether college means more than competing in 4-way (or something like that ).

It started with Bolas saying

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Just because someone gets a degree doesn't mean they are smart. All it means is they got the grades necessary to pass. That could be due to intelligence, but also could be cheating, a good bullshitter, etc.

As expensive as colleges have gotten, unless one has a way to pay for it besides going into massive debt, it just may not make economic sense for some careers anymore as well.

And I just thought I'd haul it into its own thread because it's been awhile since we've debated college on its own merit.

BTW, while I agree with the what he says, I'll disagree with what some people are inferring (i.e. that college is kind of meaningless and stuff like that).

College is generally a sign that you can defer gratification enough to complete it, can manage projects to some degree, and can communicate your thoughts effectively enough to have them evaluated repeatedly. Regardless of what else you might have learned (like math, biology, psychology, etc).

And while there are, of course, people who skate or cheat their way through college, the majority actually did the work.

And anyway -- wouldn't someone who stays conservative through college be the sign of someone who is particularly resistant to indoctrination?

Wendy P.

Ya know......I cant believe NO ONE has brought up the most important aspects of college........

PARTAY.....



and MRS degree's


I always felt so foolish taking all those comp sci, science, math and all other required things.... while so many of the other students seemed to only be there for the after hours classes...

[airtwardo 6]

College or not~

When I was 18 a friend that I graduated from HS with ran the numbers.
He decided that going to Bob's truck driving school was smarter than going to college.

A few months later he was a truck driver...no loan $ going out and steady income.
Four years later I was still in school and he was making about 35K with C.F. @ 22 years old.

10 years after HS he was making around 55K which was still considerably more than I was at the time working in aerospace.

I finally passed him in my 30's but truth be told he had a damn good head start regarding net worth...he still resides in our home town in Illinois, he owns about 20 houses there as rentals and has flipped easily twice that amount.

Things he could do long before I could because of the cheese pile accumulated earlier than possible for me...partially because I like to drink beer and skydive but ya get my point.

I also know several senior airline pilots that have never been to 'college' but make over 150K annually.

In my case I certainly wouldn't change my decision to attend a university, but I do see there are/were other options for financial success.

The education I got during those years in truth had little to do with school.

If nothing else the experience opened my eyes to horizons previously unknown to me. Introduced me to people from all over the world and opportunities I would not have known about had I stayed home and driven a truck.

I think being successful in your life doesn't necessarily have to center around money.
One can be rich with experiences...and who know that may be of more value than any $ price can meet.

I know that graduating with a couple of degrees opened more doors and extended the possibilities for much more in the 'experience' scrapbook that would likely been possible otherwise.

I also think it's an interesting footnote that I've never worked in the field in which my degree was granted!

Which is a curious point...how many of you square hats are doing what you studied?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 2,400]

>1. Depending on how long one went to school and how much debt they
>accumulated doing it, their "high paying job" might not be so much after
>the loan payments start hitting.

Agreed. You can probably end up with more money in your pocket for the first few years by skipping college. I'm sure glad I didn't, but different people have different priorities.

>2. I think food service and retail are fine first jobs and can really teach
>people not only basic work skills, but humility and understanding as well.

I agree.

[billvon 2,400]

>I said they could go to classes as needed basically to fill in any
>knowledge gaps.

That's akin to hiring an AFF instructor who has never gotten any licenses or ratings, then figuring he will "fill in any gaps" along the way with additional seminars, jumps etc. Those little letters after his signature (D-38982, AFF-I 2010) really do mean something important.

I mean, perhaps there are some DZ's who might do that to save money. Would still be a bad idea IMO.

[billvon 2,400]

>You're naive if you still think they do all those calulations by hand.
>Computer based models and simulators handle that sort of thing. Might it
>be better to know how it all works? Sure, eventually, but it's not really
>necessary to start anymore.

Computer aided design, computer aided manufacturing and computer simulation are all tools. In the wrong hands, they can produce some monumentally wrong (even dangerous) results. You need the education to know what to ask the computer to do, the experience to set up the problem and the engineering intuition to understand the results

You keep arguing that education isn't needed in engineering. It is. Indeed, it's critical. Engineering of any sort - mechanical, electrical, civil, aeronautical - is not natively intuitive; you cannot 'trust your instincts' that you get from your experience at McDonald's to understand nearfield antenna interactions.

[Lucky... 0]

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>You're naive if you still think they do all those calulations by hand.
>Computer based models and simulators handle that sort of thing. Might it
>be better to know how it all works? Sure, eventually, but it's not really
>necessary to start anymore.

Computer aided design, computer aided manufacturing and computer simulation are all tools. In the wrong hands, they can produce some monumentally wrong (even dangerous) results. You need the education to know what to ask the computer to do, the experience to set up the problem and the engineering intuition to understand the results

You keep arguing that education isn't needed in engineering. It is. Indeed, it's critical. Engineering of any sort - mechanical, electrical, civil, aeronautical - is not natively intuitive; you cannot 'trust your instincts' that you get from your experience at McDonald's to understand nearfield antenna interactions.

These are such moot points I can't believe we even argue them. Do people think stress analysis isn't absolutley needed? How about wind tunnels? And I'm not just talking acft, cars are as important, esp for cooling, drag, fuel efficiency, etc. Even bike helmets benefit from wind tunnels.

How was zero-P developed; by a guy in his backyard? I don't know the answer, but I bet it was in a lab. I read it's silicone coated F-111, I'm sure more can shed light on that.

This is what happens when morons don't use the scientific method: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BepyTSzueno

You don't have to have a degree to use the scientific method, but people who do have one are far more likely to use the scientific method.

[rhaig 0]

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How was zero-P developed; by a guy in his backyard? I don't know the answer, but I bet it was in a lab. I read it's silicone coated F-111, I'm sure more can shed light on that.

there was a guy in his basement who would coat your F-111 canopy with something to make it ZP (or close).

I think his name was Fred. I don't recall exactly. I almost had him coat my wildfire168. Instead I bought a Sabre.

--
Rob

[Bolas 5]

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These are such moot points I can't believe we even argue them.

(irony overload)


It's interesting, the only defense seen so far of the college system has been for engineers which at most schools the programs are more like trade schools anyways.

I'll admit college can open new doors and expand horizons. It sure did mine. However once it did I discovered it wasn't really for me and chose a different path. Coming from a long line of college grads, that didn't really go over that well at first.

We really need to get out of this de facto "everyone has to go to college and get a degree to be a success" mentality because frankly, it's bullshit. It may be the most common path, but it's not the only one nor is it for everyone.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[wmw999 2,122]

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We really need to get out of this de facto "everyone has to go to college and get a degree to be a success" mentality because frankly, it's bullshit. It may be the most common path, but it's not the only one nor is it for everyone

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that point.

What they are disagreeing with is the assertion that a college degree is close to meaningless.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

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We really need to get out of this de facto "everyone has to go to college and get a degree to be a success" mentality because frankly, it's bullshit. It may be the most common path, but it's not the only one nor is it for everyone

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that point.

What they are disagreeing with is the assertion that a college degree is close to meaningless.

Wendy P.

Which I never said or even implied. The closest I came to such was this the quote you used to start this thread:

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Just because someone gets a degree doesn't mean they are smart. All it means is they got the grades necessary to pass. That could be due to intelligence, but also could be cheating, a good bullshitter, etc.

As expensive as colleges have gotten, unless one has a way to pay for it besides going into massive debt, it just may not make economic sense for some careers anymore as well.

Some might be meaningless, but the English majors have known that for years.*

* My mom has a degree in English.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

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Give me someone with proven job experience over someone with some letters after their name any day.

Make up your mind - a few posts ago you wanted engineers to have "PE" after their name.

That wasn't me. [/reply

Might as well have been; after a bottle of rum, you and rhaig are completely indistinguishable.

If that's not a PA...

Rhaig, do you want to press charges?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[rhaig 0]

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Give me someone with proven job experience over someone with some letters after their name any day.

Make up your mind - a few posts ago you wanted engineers to have "PE" after their name.

That wasn't me. [/reply

Might as well have been; after a bottle of rum, you and rhaig are completely indistinguishable.

If that's not a PA...

Rhaig, do you want to press charges?

I was going to ask you the same question. That's a step up for me isn't it?

--
Rob

[kelpdiver 2]

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As far as debt vs salary, it is common for students to work their way through college by attending public universities and working pert time jobs during semesters and internships during summers. It is common for them to graduate with no debt.

Actually, this is really not that common. Those who can graduate without debt are in a very good position, be it from parental assistance or working. I was able to cover about half my costs at public university, my mom covered the rest @500/mo.

Obviously the situation at the private schools is far worse, esp when they discovered that prospective parents/students viewed lower tuition not as a value but a sign of inferiority.

There is an emerging trend to offer 3 year programs for those who know what they want their degree in. They take summer school and enter with some AP credits.

If, like Bolas, you view college as a trade school, then the 3 year program is a step forward. If you see the experience as something greater, this is a decrease in the value.

[kelpdiver 2]

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A few months later he was a truck driver...no loan $ going out and steady income.
Four years later I was still in school and he was making about 35K with C.F. @ 22 years old.

There are a few jobs out there that pay really well relative to the skill/difficulty of entry. Truck driving can be one, esp long haul. But it's hard work, lonely work, and only so many people want to do it. (Garbage collection is another) The lack of barrier to entry also leaves you vulnerable to a change in the future where you suddenly are jobless. At the port of Oakland, there is a air quality driven requirement for cleaner engines that may wipe out the independents who can't pay for that large capital investment.

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I also know several senior airline pilots that have never been to 'college' but make over 150K annually.

The allure of this has produced quite a few commercial pilots who make small wages. And traditionally the route for the senior jumbo jet pilots starts with military experience, which generally starts with the service academies. That's college plus wars, though the fighter pilots today are in much less danger than those in Vietnam and Korea.

[Bolas 5]

http://failbook.com/2010/06/24/funny-facebook-fails-graduates-have-such-quality-education/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Failbooking+%28FailBooking%29&utm_content=FaceBook

I rest my case.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Andy9o8 0]

You have deeply offended me. As soon as your birthday's over, I'm suing you, using the law license that I used my uni degrees to earn.

[billvon 2,400]

Thanks for the reminder. Been meaning to call my college; my first diploma still says "bachelor of science" but I got married like ten years ago.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

I found this on the internet, it has instantly made me an Engineer.....

http://www.wolframalpha.com/screencast/introducingwolframalpha.html

(It IS an extremely cool website)

[Channman 2]

Wendy,

This is a very interesting topic. College in fact helps individuals gain the necessary tools to do well so they can work for someone else. But what I find more interesting is those individuals who succeeded beyond anyone's expectations with only a high school diploma.

1) House Wife, with only a High School education starts a home based business so she can remain at home with her 3 small girls while daddy works. 20 years later, her home based business is generating over 750,000.00 in revenue, employees 9 full time employees and generates a personal income of 150,000.00, not bad for a High School Grad.

2) My sister is another example of someone who never went to college. Working for a global company with assets above 70 Billion, she worked her way to Vice President with the company's Houston Division earning an income above $325,000.00.

So to the question, "What does college mean?" It can mean the difference between a job and no job.

It could mean, 10,000 to 20,000 dollars difference in pay.

It could mean, the death to someones dreams getting wrapped up with some Dum Ass professor who never ran a business and or ever meet a pay roll, and couldn't negotiate their way out of a paper bag.

[wmw999 2,122]

I'm sure there are people whom college has harmed, just as there are highly successful people whom it didn't help.

But just as there are fewer slots in the NBA for guys who are 5'4" (and they have to be both skilled and lucky), so there are fewer slots in the mass of better-paying jobs for non college grads. That's all.

It's a tool, not a guarantee of anything.

Me, I love my sociology degree
Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Andy9o8 0]

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I love my sociology degree

http://i.space.com/images/081009-seti-dummies-02.jpg

[wmw999 2,122]

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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Actually, this is really not that common.

I know several who graduated a few weeks ago who paid their own way through college and have no debt and only a couple had help from mom & dad. Every one of them worked their ass off not only in class and at work but also in the financial aid department applying for scholarships.
I guess it depends on your definition of what common is.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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It's interesting, the only defense seen so far of the college system has been for engineers which at most schools the programs are more like trade schools anyways.

Really?? Have you ever been through an engineering program? I doubt it because if you had you would know how absolutely stupid that remark is.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Actually, this is really not that common.

I know several who graduated a few weeks ago who paid their own way through college and have no debt and only a couple had help from mom & dad. Every one of them worked their ass off not only in class and at work but also in the financial aid department applying for scholarships.
I guess it depends on your definition of what common is.

Common would mean typical - as in true for a greater majority - 60%. Knowing "several" isn't quite the same.

Taking quick look:
in 2005, average debt for public school grad was $10,600. For private, for profit schools, $24,200.

A more useful citation:

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But 60% of new college graduates have debt--an average of $22,700 for 2007 graduates, the College Board reports.