What does college mean?

[wmw999 2,123]

There's a side discussion taking over the liberal mods thread about whether college means more than competing in 4-way (or something like that ).

It started with Bolas saying

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Just because someone gets a degree doesn't mean they are smart. All it means is they got the grades necessary to pass. That could be due to intelligence, but also could be cheating, a good bullshitter, etc.

As expensive as colleges have gotten, unless one has a way to pay for it besides going into massive debt, it just may not make economic sense for some careers anymore as well.

And I just thought I'd haul it into its own thread because it's been awhile since we've debated college on its own merit.

BTW, while I agree with the what he says, I'll disagree with what some people are inferring (i.e. that college is kind of meaningless and stuff like that).

College is generally a sign that you can defer gratification enough to complete it, can manage projects to some degree, and can communicate your thoughts effectively enough to have them evaluated repeatedly. Regardless of what else you might have learned (like math, biology, psychology, etc).

And while there are, of course, people who skate or cheat their way through college, the majority actually did the work.

And anyway -- wouldn't someone who stays conservative through college be the sign of someone who is particularly resistant to indoctrination?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ChangoLanzao 0]

It really depends on WHICH college.

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And anyway -- wouldn't someone who stays conservative through college be the sign of someone who is particularly resistant to indoctrination?

Not if they attended Liberty University!

[kallend 1,623]

It means wealthy parents are willing to spend a whole lot of money to have me help their children get economically productive, well paying jobs.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Bolas 5]

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It means wealthy parents are willing to spend a whole lot of money to have me help their children get economically productive, well paying jobs.

I think the point she's trying to make is the degree really necessary to actually do the job or just simply a prerequisite to get it?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[kallend 1,623]

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It means wealthy parents are willing to spend a whole lot of money to have me help their children get economically productive, well paying jobs.

I think the point she's trying to make is the degree really necessary to actually do the job or just simply a prerequisite to get it?

What qualification would you prefer for the folks that design the planes you fly on and the bridges you drive over?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[CarrieByTheSea 0]

A college degree demonstrates:

1. Ability to learn.
2. Ability to follow through.
3. Acquisition of advanced knowledge.

Those without a degree may possess all of the above and more; a degree merely proves it more readily and easily.

Now, advanced degrees (masters, doctorate, etc.) are another matter.

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." ~ Temple Grandin

[CarrieByTheSea 0]

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It means wealthy parents are willing to spend a whole lot of money...

Or in some cases, worthy students are willing to accept a prodigious scholarship.

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." ~ Temple Grandin

[wmw999 2,123]

Or that someone chose reasonably wisely and worked their ass off to pay as they went for at least part of the time. My son graduated that way in 2007, so it's still possible. He paid for the last 2 years out of work earnings, and graduated with no loans. Damn fine work.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

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It means wealthy parents are willing to spend a whole lot of money to have me help their children get economically productive, well paying jobs.

I think the point she's trying to make is the degree really necessary to actually do the job or just simply a prerequisite to get it?

What qualification would you prefer for the folks that design the planes you fly on and the bridges you drive over?

Real world experience through mentorship and on the job training, which is what they get. Most new graduates don't become project leaders right away nor work solely by themselves designing planes and/or bridges.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[wmw999 2,123]

And what vetting process do you expect companies to follow for new employees to be mentored? If they get several hundred applications (not at all unusual) should they interview each of them to see if they're the diamond in the rough?

BTW -- I'm a purely OJT-trained person. My degree has nothing to do with my job. I totally sympathize with wanting to get there. But having interviewed people, too, I know that without some detailed knowledge about that particular individual, I'd go for the relevant college degree and work experience over the "aptitude" every time.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

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A college degree demonstrates:

1. Ability to learn.
2. Ability to follow through.
3. Acquisition of advanced knowledge.

Those without a degree may possess all of the above and more; a degree merely proves it more readily and easily.

Now, advanced degrees (masters, doctorate, etc.) are another matter.

A college degree simply means they (through some means) met the requirements to graduate.

Anything additional, either positive or negative inferrences are simply that.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,400]

>A college degree simply means they (through some means) met
>the requirements to graduate.

Agreed. Those generally include entry requirements, the demonstrated ability to show up regularly for classes, the ability to perform well on tests, demonstrated competence both inside and outside one's field (i.e. have to be able to write at least minimally) and the ability to organize one's time to make all that happen.

Demonstration of such skills is useful to employers. Most employers, for example, prefer employees that actually show up to do their jobs.

[CarrieByTheSea 0]

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Or that someone chose reasonably wisely and worked their ass off to pay as they went for at least part of the time. My son graduated that way in 2007, so it's still possible. He paid for the last 2 years out of work earnings, and graduated with no loans. Damn fine work.

That_is_impressive.
I know how difficult it is to maintain a full-time class schedule and work 30+ hours/week; I did that for my last two years of college.

Edit: Of course, a good bit of my earnings went toward skydiving. But, then I moved in with my amazing skydiver boyfriend and saved a ton on rent and living expenses.

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." ~ Temple Grandin

[kelpdiver 2]

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Real world experience through mentorship and on the job training, which is what they get. Most new graduates don't become project leaders right away nor work solely by themselves designing planes and/or bridges.

The job environment is usually reactive, fire driven. Rarely time to think about process or the big picture. It is very difficult to build those skills in a mentorship, if they didn't already exist.

The college grad still needs the mentoring, because real world can differ from the ivory realm. But if you skip over the college part, you're at best creating clones of the existing mentor, rather than increasing the number of viewpoints that can analyze a situation.

[Bolas 5]

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>A college degree simply means they (through some means) met
>the requirements to graduate.

Agreed. Those generally include entry requirements, the demonstrated ability to show up regularly for classes, the ability to perform well on tests, demonstrated competence both inside and outside one's field (i.e. have to be able to write at least minimally) and the ability to organize one's time to make all that happen.

Demonstration of such skills is useful to employers. Most employers, for example, prefer employees that actually show up to do their jobs.

Or they may have simply lied, cheat, stole, defrauded, and/or BSed their way through.

While the skills you listed are definitely valuable to employers, a candidate should not simply be assumed to have them just because they have a degree.

The same thing happens in technical fields. For a while, certifications (particularly Microsoft and Cisco) were all the rage and companies were paying big $$$ for new hires with them as well as giving raises to existing staff and paying for their training.

Technical schools started up saying they could train someone who knew nothing and get them their certs in 3 months.

The test themselves asked lots of questions on bizarre stuff noone used just seemingly to make them harder but just succeeded in making them less relevant.

These days the only people that tend to bother getting the certs are those that are own their own IT business, instructors, or consultants.

We may start seeing the same with college degrees.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[CarrieByTheSea 0]

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Or they may have simply lied, cheat, stole, defrauded, and/or BSed their way through.

This seems to be your main point. From my perspective, your point pertains to a minimal percentage of college graduates, therefore making your main point rather moot.

Do you have any evidence to suggest a large/r percentage of college students graduated via the means you suggest?

"Nature is cruel, but we don't have to be." ~ Temple Grandin

[Bolas 5]

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The job environment is usually reactive, fire driven. Rarely time to think about process or the big picture. It is very difficult to build those skills in a mentorship, if they didn't already exist.

From what I've experienced in corporate america, process and big picture thinking just aren't that important to companies. I know mine have gotten me into trouble with management many a time.

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The college grad still needs the mentoring, because real world can does differ from the ivory realm. But if you skip over the college part, you're at best creating clones of the existing mentor, rather than increasing the number of viewpoints that can analyze a situation.

Fixed it.

Alot of the mentoring is unteaching them things they were taught in the "tower" that just aren't real world applicable.

Additionally they tend not to have just one mentor, but even so, how does that differ from just being clones of the profs they had in college, other than being more reality based?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[wmw999 2,123]

Having both a college education and a mentor introduces new factors into the knowledge basis of everyone involved in the mentorship. 9 times out of 10 that's good for both. Intellectual or knowledge inbreeding is not a good thing, and relying on house-developed knowledge (which is what mentorships are) for everything leads to big blind spots in a company's knowledge base.

For maximum effectiveness a group that's been working well together is good. But for them to grow, a newbie or outsider who questions them periodically is a good thing.

Just like in skydiving. Used to be you needed 200 jumps to get on a square.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

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Or they may have simply lied, cheat, stole, defrauded, and/or BSed their way through.

This seems to be your main point. From my perspective, your point pertains to a minimal percentage of college graduates, therefore making your main point rather moot.

Do you have any evidence to suggest a large/r percentage of college students graduated via the means you suggest?

At least you admit that it does occur, most have seem to simply try to ignore that.

My point is simply if all you know about a person is they have a degree, until more is known, nothing more, be it positive or negative, should be automatically inferred.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,400]

>Or they may have simply lied, cheat, stole, defrauded, and/or BSed
>their way through.

Of course; that's a possibility. However, 99% of the people who have a college degree got it the old fashioned way, in my experience. (i.e. went to class, worked, learned etc.)

>While the skills you listed are definitely valuable to employers, a
>candidate should not simply be assumed to have them just because they
>have a degree.

Agreed. It just means it is more likely for them to have the skills needed. For example, when we hire for electrical engineers, an electrical engineering degree is a strong point in their favor. (Not the only point of course.)

[wmw999 2,123]

Then how do you determine anything else if you don't trust their degree. They could have cheated their way through previous jobs, and they might be great BS'ers in an interview as well.

Yes, there are cheaters in college. There are cheaters in skydiving -- not everyone who says they have 1000 jumps really does. And not everyone who has 1000 jumps is good. But it's a starting point.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

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Having both a college education and a mentor introduces new factors into the knowledge basis of everyone involved in the mentorship. 9 times out of 10 that's good for both. Intellectual or knowledge inbreeding is not a good thing, and relying on house-developed knowledge (which is what mentorships are) for everything leads to big blind spots in a company's knowledge base.

For maximum effectiveness a group that's been working well together is good. But for them to grow, a newbie or outsider who questions them periodically is a good thing.

Just like in skydiving. Used to be you needed 200 jumps to get on a square.

Wendy P.

Workers tend to change companies alot as is, so they'd be getting new perspectives.

Your skydiving example proves my point. That was a real world inspired change that eventually led to changing the way people were taught.

While changes do come out of academia, moreso probably come from companies and sponsored R&D.

For too long college has been pretty much the defacto thing to do to get a job. I think people are starting to wake up to the fact that for some career options, it's simply an uneeded expense/debt, at least to start a career with.

It's probably just as screwed up as primary education, but it's impact is far greater considering the expense.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

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Then how do you determine anything else if you don't trust their degree. They could have cheated their way through previous jobs, and they might be great BS'ers in an interview as well.

Yes, there are cheaters in college. There are cheaters in skydiving -- not everyone who says they have 1000 jumps really does. And not everyone who has 1000 jumps is good. But it's a starting point.

Wendy P.

It's not a matter of not trusting, it's a matter of not automatically trusting at least without further info.

As said above:
My point is simply if all you know about a person is they have a degree, until more is known, nothing more, be it positive or negative, should be automatically inferred.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,400]

>I think people are starting to wake up to the fact that for some career
>options, it's simply an uneeded expense/debt, at least to start a career
>with.

While that's true, it does severely limit your career options. I mean, if your goal is to get a relatively high paying job with opportunities for advancement, then a college degree is most definitely not an "unneeded expense." If your goal is more foodservice or retail, I agree, it could be an unneeded expense.

[wmw999 2,123]

But your point is a simple one in a complex problem set. A college education is a smorgasbord of knowledge, where students are (hopefully) introduced to a number of ways of approaching problems. Yeah, not all of them work, but that's not always a bad thing, because the exposure gives them the opportunity to use that knowledge in other ways.

While college is a defacto way to get a large number of jobs, there are a decent number that still don't require it. In and of itself, college can be broadening, exposing students to concepts and situations that might never have occurred to them -- that's generally a good thing.

And, again -- without using college, how would you propose sorting through a large number of entry level applicants?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)