What does college mean?

[Belgian_Draft 0]

Me thinks you should look up the definition of the word "common".
Me riding my motorbike to work is common, but I only ride once or twice a week.
Trains stopping at a crossing and blocking traffic is common, yet most trains don't.
Traffic jams are common, but most highways are clear most of the time.
Students graduating debt free is common, but most don't.

Since you seem to like statistics, why not look up and post some stats showing average lifetime earnings of college grads compared to non-college grads?

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Bolas 5]

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It's interesting, the only defense seen so far of the college system has been for engineers which at most schools the programs are more like trade schools anyways.

Really?? Have you ever been through an engineering program? I doubt it because if you had you would know how absolutely stupid that remark is.

I went to a big school, known for its engineering and had a roommate and other friends in the program. They took very few classes outside of the engineering school buildings and curriculum. I don't think they even had any electives until 2nd semster sophmore year.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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It's interesting, the only defense seen so far of the college system has been for engineers which at most schools the programs are more like trade schools anyways.

Really?? Have you ever been through an engineering program? I doubt it because if you had you would know how absolutely stupid that remark is.

I went to a big school, known for its engineering and had a roommate and other friends in the program. They took very few classes outside of the engineering school buildings and curriculum. I don't think they even had any electives until 2nd semster sophmore year.

So that makes Engineering College a trade school?
That is quite a stretch.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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It's interesting, the only defense seen so far of the college system has been for engineers which at most schools the programs are more like trade schools anyways.

Really?? Have you ever been through an engineering program? I doubt it because if you had you would know how absolutely stupid that remark is.

I went to a big school, known for its engineering and had a roommate and other friends in the program. They took very few classes outside of the engineering school buildings and curriculum. I don't think they even had any electives until 2nd semster sophmore year.

So that makes Engineering College a trade school?
That is quite a stretch.

Not as much as you might think

At the University of Illinois, the Engineering campus is on the North side of Green Street (Urbana). There really are students in Engineering here who cannot find their way around the South side of the campus.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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demonstrated competence both inside and outside one's field (i.e. have to be able to write at least minimally)

I would have disagreed suggesting 'demonstrated competence in the subset of one's field which is popular to teach and easy to test' as an alternative until my favorite professor was no longer allowed to teach a core sophomore class (the administration didn't like how many people she failed) and I personally observed the graduates I was interviewing go from generally high quality to generally not competent.

[Lucky... 0]

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How was zero-P developed; by a guy in his backyard? I don't know the answer, but I bet it was in a lab. I read it's silicone coated F-111, I'm sure more can shed light on that.

there was a guy in his basement who would coat your F-111 canopy with something to make it ZP (or close).

I think his name was Fred. I don't recall exactly. I almost had him coat my wildfire168. Instead I bought a Sabre.

OK, but that doesn't mean he invented/discovered it.

[Lucky... 0]

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These are such moot points I can't believe we even argue them.

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(irony overload)

I guess if ya have nothing, load it up with emoticons. Did ya learn that in teh college you didn't attend?

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It's interesting, the only defense seen so far of the college system has been for engineers which at most schools the programs are more like trade schools anyways.

See, if you had gone to college/univ you would have read me talking about lawyers and law school. Oh, Iget it, you're up on murdr charges and you want to guy who just uses hunches instead of all that reading stuff about case law and procedure.

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I'll admit college can open new doors and expand horizons. It sure did mine. However once it did I discovered it wasn't really for me and chose a different path.

So you're justifying dropping out. Ok.

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Coming from a long line of college grads, that didn't really go over that well at first.

Attending college creates intelligence to the point of your genetic potential; finishing college shows the ability to complete things.

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We really need to get out of this de facto "everyone has to go to college and get a degree to be a success" mentality because frankly, it's bullshit. It may be the most common path, but it's not the only one nor is it for everyone.

It's not for everyone, only for people who want to compete in today's society in most occupations. People with degrees have better understandings and the ability to grasp things regardless of the issue, over those without.

[Lucky... 0]

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It's interesting, the only defense seen so far of the college system has been for engineers which at most schools the programs are more like trade schools anyways.

Really?? Have you ever been through an engineering program? I doubt it because if you had you would know how absolutely stupid that remark is.

Yep, engineers know how to perform stress analysis on a given structure/part, trade school attendees know how to assemble said structures - only engineers pretend they can do both, usually out of ego.

[pontiacgtp00 0]

A college is a business that sells education. Just like a grocery store sells food, a liquor store sells alcohol, etc...

Anything can be sold, as long as the masses are under the illusion that it is necessary. If it's money you're after, spend some time in a retail sales position and be highly observant as to why the business is successful....it does not take a college graduate to become filthy rich. It takes a person who can sell anything to anyone at anytime.

Now if you want a job that requires the use of your brain for matters other than money...stay in school as long as possible.

[kallend 1,623]

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It's interesting, the only defense seen so far of the college system has been for engineers which at most schools the programs are more like trade schools anyways.

Really?? Have you ever been through an engineering program? I doubt it because if you had you would know how absolutely stupid that remark is.

I went to a big school, known for its engineering and had a roommate and other friends in the program. They took very few classes outside of the engineering school buildings and curriculum. I don't think they even had any electives until 2nd semster sophmore year.

Your ignorance is incredible.

If you look up the ABET criteria for accrediting engineering programs you will see just how ignorant your comments are.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

>it does not take a college graduate to become filthy rich. It takes a
>person who can sell anything to anyone at anytime.

Of course, just as it does not take any training to become a skydiver; you can just watch videos and then go do it on your own. After all, all you have to do is move your arms and legs.

But training sure helps.

[pontiacgtp00 0]

Training to become a skydiver and being a salesperson...apparently the same thing.

Although you're statement is partially true since a portion of the FJC is video based. Other than that there is no relation, apples and oranges.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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It's interesting, the only defense seen so far of the college system has been for engineers which at most schools the programs are more like trade schools anyways.

Really?? Have you ever been through an engineering program? I doubt it because if you had you would know how absolutely stupid that remark is.

Yep, engineers know how to perform stress analysis on a given structure/part, trade school attendees know how to assemble said structures - only engineers pretend they can do both, usually out of ego.

Damn, lucky, you and I actually agree on something. I haven't read a post of yours in this thread that I disagree with.
Don't forget...some of us engineers were doing the hands-on part for years before we ever went to college.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[Belgian_Draft 0]

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It's interesting, the only defense seen so far of the college system has been for engineers which at most schools the programs are more like trade schools anyways.

Really?? Have you ever been through an engineering program? I doubt it because if you had you would know how absolutely stupid that remark is.

I went to a big school, known for its engineering and had a roommate and other friends in the program. They took very few classes outside of the engineering school buildings and curriculum. I don't think they even had any electives until 2nd semster sophmore year.

So that makes Engineering College a trade school?
That is quite a stretch.

Not as much as you might think

At the University of Illinois, the Engineering campus is on the North side of Green Street (Urbana). There really are students in Engineering here who cannot find their way around the South side of the campus.

Please explain why you think that makes it nothing more than a trade school.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[rhaig 0]

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How was zero-P developed; by a guy in his backyard? I don't know the answer, but I bet it was in a lab. I read it's silicone coated F-111, I'm sure more can shed light on that.

there was a guy in his basement who would coat your F-111 canopy with something to make it ZP (or close).

I think his name was Fred. I don't recall exactly. I almost had him coat my wildfire168. Instead I bought a Sabre.

OK, but that doesn't mean he invented/discovered it.

I didn't mean to imply that he did. Though it was a viable (though not as durable) alternative.

--
Rob

[sandi 0]

I’m very happy with my degrees, they are worth all of the hard work I put into earning them. Now I’m getting paid to continue on in school. Sure, I have student loans from my undergrad, I went to one of those highly rated expensive private schools and I think it was worth every penny. But then I was there to learn not just to get a piece of paper. I worked and got scholarships to keep the loans to a minimum. Now I get to do research, and if I want to have a research career then a PhD is a requirement. But it’s not just that one needs a piece of paper with a degree listed on it. I actually need the education and training required to get the degree in order to do the job. I wouldn’t be publishing research without all of the education I've obtained during the past four years in grad school because I wouldn’t have the skills to do so.

I think education is very valuable and I don’t measure success in terms of how much money someone makes. I won’t make tons on money when I graduate but I love the work I do, I find it extremely rewarding. Making a decent living doing work I enjoy means more to me than being rich.

Back to the original topic. A college degree is in fact a requirement for many careers. To me it says a lot about a person. They are of at least average intelligence. They can show up for classes and can manage responsibilities for multiple classes. And they can do that consistently for four years. So they’ve learned the topics of their courses, how to manage their time effectively, and they have acquired at least some skill in writing and speaking effectively. And no, I don’t think that everything can be learned on the job. Maybe for some jobs but most need a strong educational foundation.

[Bolas 5]

This thread just shows how smug most college graduates are and how they automatically look down and discount anything someone without a degree says versus just taken them at face value. I'm sure some of you will now do this to me too. Facts are facts, it doesn't matter if they're being said by a windows licker or a genius.

One of the big reasons why I eventually left for good was this very attitude I saw from professors and other students. They all were trying so hard to prove to others they were smart that they intentionally made things more complicated and harder than they needed to be in the form of "weed out" classes and other BS.

My final straw was when I took accounting fundamentals and discovered that even the fundamentals were flawed as they didn't even factor in additional effects. When I brought this up the prof basically ignored me and just went on.

Yes, most college grads are smart and some do some amazing stuff, but there's also a large percentage of them that feel they have to prove to everyone how smart they are by making things more complicated and then coming up with what appears to be the solution. Or they take a complicated or old thing and rather than simplify or redesign just add on to it,

There's an old saying, "just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should" and "the simplest solution is usually the best." That whole concept seems to not not be enforced as they are learning complex things.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

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A college is a business that sells education. Just like a grocery store sells food, a liquor store sells alcohol, etc...

Anything can be sold, as long as the masses are under the illusion that it is necessary.

+1. Just like health care insurance. Push yourself into the system enough and you can manufacture your own demand.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,400]

>There's an old saying, "just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should"

That's very true.

> and "the simplest solution is usually the best."

That's generally _not_ true when you get to higher levels of engineering and science. Often the complex solution _is_ really the best, and simple common sense leads you in exactly the wrong direction.

Common sense says the 45 degree angle should work. It doesn't. Time-based separation is a lot more complicated but works.

Common sense says that you turn the handlebars on a bicycle to the right if you want to go right (at least to someone who hasn't paid a lot of attention to what they do when they ride a bike.) Nope - you turn the handlebars LEFT to start a turn to the right. The physics are complicated, but the simplistic answer doesn't work.

Common sense says that static is a bad thing in communication systems; white noise is the ultimate failure of a radio link. Yet modern spread-spectrum systems transmit something that looks just like white noise, and it turns out you can transmit six times the information that way.

Common sense says that if you want to get closer to an object in orbit, you fire your engines to move yourself closer to it. In most cases, no - you generally overtake an object ahead of you by thrusting _away_ from it, which drops you into a lower orbit, which is faster, which allows you to get nearer to the object.

Common sense equips us well to deal with the ordinary world of eating, sleeping, walking around, moving things and dealing with other people. It doesn't equip us well to work with the sciences. Education is a much better alternative.

[Andy9o8 0]

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This thread just shows how smug most college graduates are

We are not; and if you'd only stop making yourself dizzy with all that mouth-breathing, you'd see it.

[Bolas 5]

"Common sense says the 45 degree angle should work. It doesn't. Time-based separation is a lot more complicated but works. "

Actually, wasn't the whole issue with that that it was originally 45 degrees from the point on the ground the jumpers exited but got changed to the jumpers themselves?

"Common sense says that you turn the handlebars on a bicycle to the right if you want to go right (at least to someone who hasn't paid a lot of attention to what they do when they ride a bike.) Nope - you turn the handlebars LEFT to start a turn to the right. The physics are complicated, but the simplistic answer doesn't work. "

The reason may be complicated but the results sure aren't.
"Common sense says that static is a bad thing in communication systems; white noise is the ultimate failure of a radio link. Yet modern spread-spectrum systems transmit something that looks just like white noise, and it turns out you can transmit six times the information that way. "

Great rethinking of an old concept. Most were prolly taught how to eliminate static versus use it.

"Common sense says that if you want to get closer to an object in orbit, you fire your engines to move yourself closer to it. In most cases, no - you generally overtake an object ahead of you by thrusting _away_ from it, which drops you into a lower orbit, which is faster, which allows you to get nearer to the object. "

Makes sense when you factor in orbits.

"Common sense equips us well to deal with the ordinary world of eating, sleeping, walking around, moving things and dealing with other people. It doesn't equip us well to work with the sciences. Education is a much better alternative."

I should have clarified my statement better as you're implying that the simple solution discards all but the direct situation.

"the simplest solution (that accounts for all related factors) is usually the best."

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

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This thread just shows how smug most college graduates are

We are not; and if you'd only stop making yourself dizzy with all that mouth-breathing, you'd see it.

(mouth breath)

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[kallend 1,623]

ONE hot summer’s day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. “Just the things to quench my thirst,” quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: “I am sure they are sour.”

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[champu 1]

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At the University of Illinois, the Engineering campus is on the North side of Green Street (Urbana). There really are students in Engineering here who cannot find their way around the South side of the campus.

All the bars are on Green Street. Why would you need to go any farther South? (by the way, if you think the School of Engineering at UIUC is a trade school, that says a lot about your ability to find your way around the North side of campus.)

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"the simplest solution is usually the best."

I like to say that elegant solutions are usually the best, that doesn't always mean they are simple, and it doesn't always mean they're the only solutions.

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"Common sense says the 45 degree angle should work. It doesn't. Time-based separation is a lot more complicated but works. "

Actually, wasn't the whole issue with that that it was originally 45 degrees from the point on the ground the jumpers exited but got changed to the jumpers themselves?

Well, I suppose if you gave two miles between groups then collisions wouldn't be a problem... mostly because the previous group would have landed already.

[Bolas 5]

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ONE hot summer’s day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. “Just the things to quench my thirst,” quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: “I am sure they are sour.”

I tasted the grapes as everyone claimed I just had to eat them, they were just not to my tastes. Sure they taste great to some, but others may convince themselves they taste great and some others may just eat them because they're told to.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.