quade 3 #51 June 17, 2010 QuoteQuoteThey don't pay taxes on those workers, benefits or in most cases as much as minimum wage. I'm with you up to the minimum wage part. Where did you get that. Two things really; 1) It's highly Googleable, but depending on your point of view or how one might view a web site's bias, you may or may not believe what they have to say. 2) It's intuitively obvious. Minimum wage can only apply to people that would seek recourse for minimum wage violations. Illegals certainly aren't going to show up in a court and demand a higher wage. They might walk off a farm or out of a restaurant, but there will be others to take their place shortly. Few businesses that are as shady as to hire illegals in the first place are going to be compelled in any way to adhere to a minimum wage law. Why would they suddenly feel compelled to follow that law and not the others? If your friend paid his people minimum wage or above, uh, "good for him" (even though he's part of the problem), but the vast majority of illegals work for substandard wages and in many cases the standard is minimum wage.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #52 June 17, 2010 A bunch of LONG prison sentences for employers of illegals would be a whole lot more cost effective than finishing a 2000 mile fence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,473 #53 June 17, 2010 >it is not a deterrent only becasue there is little local effort put forth to >stop it, shoot em, drown em, poison em, put snakes in the tunnel . .. So sounds like if we aren't willing to shoot em, poison em a fence won't work, and if we ARE willing to shoot em then we don't need a fence. Which would make a fence a huge waste of money no matter how you look at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 177 #54 June 17, 2010 Quote Quote I live in San Diego. We have a big border fence. The Mexicans tunnel under it all of the time. Not a deterrent. it is not a deterrent only becasue there is little local effort put forth to stop it, shoot em, drown em, poison em, put snakes in the tunnels, I really don't care, illegal is illegal these people are not stupid, they know there is really little attempt to stop them and no penalty when they get caught so they just keeping coming with the resources and technology we have it would only take a short while - IF CA wanted to stop it There is a local effort to catch them. They get caught all of the time. Destroy one tunnel, another gets dug. My point is, a fence is a waste of money. Over, under, through, it won't matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #55 June 17, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteThey don't pay taxes on those workers, benefits or in most cases as much as minimum wage. I'm with you up to the minimum wage part. Where did you get that. Two things really; 1) It's highly Googleable, but depending on your point of view or how one might view a web site's bias, you may or may not believe what they have to say. I'll pick through those though the first few appear to be opinion pieces with nothing more than your "it's intuitively obvious" brand of "argument". Quote 2) It's intuitively obvious. Minimum wage can only apply to people that would seek recourse for minimum wage violations. Illegals certainly aren't going to show up in a court and demand a higher wage. They might walk off a farm or out of a restaurant, but there will be others to take their place shortly. Few businesses that are as shady as to hire illegals in the first place are going to be compelled in any way to adhere to a minimum wage law. Why would they suddenly feel compelled to follow that law and not the others? It's also intuitively obvious that the workers with more skill will be retained and paid more money. You assume that just because they're here outside of legal process that they're unskilled? Or is it because they're brown? *** If your friend paid his people minimum wage or above, uh, "good for him" (even though he's part of the problem), but the vast majority of illegals work for substandard wages and in many cases the standard is minimum wage. well I'll just have to trust your opinion won't I. Or I could read that NY times piece that comes up in your google search. oh wait... it's an opinion piece too isn't it. (and I couldn't tell... was adding "uh" your attempt at wit, or are you trying to mimic the speech patterns of our president?)-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #56 June 17, 2010 Really? Must I do everything around here? Well, here's one that disproves the idea that most illegals won't go to court, but it is still an extremely rare case. http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=85432 He was making $6 per hour rather than the state minimum of $8. Not "opinion", fact.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #57 June 17, 2010 QuoteOk, here's something I didn't realize; the border patrol can discriminate based on age. Yet another thing I can't do. I told you that before, I was denied being able to apply due to my age.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #58 June 17, 2010 QuoteReally? Must I do everything around here? Well, here's one that disproves the idea that most illegals won't go to court, but it is still an extremely rare case. http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=85432 He was making $6 per hour rather than the state minimum of $8. Not "opinion", fact. Not sure whose point you're trying to make. The article talks about a few different cases where illegals weren't properly compensated, and how the state is making sure they're accessible for illegals who want to report their employers. I never said it wasn't happening, I simply don't believe it's a "vast majority". And that article still has no numbers for how many illegals are paid under minimums. In fact, keep scrolling your google search and you'll find this: http://abcnews.go.com/Business/IndustryInfo/story?id=3189288&page=1 QuoteThe perception that millions of undocumented immigrants working as busboys, maids and day laborers at construction sites earn substandard wages is largely inaccurate. In the United States "labor markets are competitive enough that it's difficult to find evidence that illegal immigrants have been getting paid less than minimum wage," Pia Orrenius, a senior economist at the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas who studies labor and immigration, told ABC News. David Card, a labor economics professor at the University of California in Berkeley, agreed. Immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American countries are not crossing the border for minimum wage jobs, but search for high wages -- $10 an hour for example -- working in construction or in the agricultural industry. what happened to intuitively obvious?-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #59 June 17, 2010 Quote>it is not a deterrent only becasue there is little local effort put forth to >stop it, shoot em, drown em, poison em, put snakes in the tunnel . .. So sounds like if we aren't willing to shoot em, poison em a fence won't work, and if we ARE willing to shoot em then we don't need a fence. Which would make a fence a huge waste of money no matter how you look at it. the problem I have with a fence is that if we're building it to stem the flow of immigrants, we're solving the problem from the wrong end. All it will do is make them more creative. If we're building a fence to secure the border from hostiles (possibly terrorists) entering the country, they aren't going to come in where the fence would be up anyway. So a fence doesn't help any.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #60 June 17, 2010 QuoteQuoteI live in San Diego. We have a big border fence. The Mexicans tunnel under it all of the time. Not a deterrent. Quoteit is not a deterrent only becasue there is little local effort put forth to stop it, shoot em, drown em, poison em, put snakes in the tunnels, I really don't care, illegal is illegal All the above actions would be illegal, so illegal is ok for us, not for them? Quotethese people are not stupid, they know there is really little attempt to stop them and no penalty when they get caught so they just keeping coming Right, live in a rotten country or risk life and limb to better themselves; seems like what some of us do to make a living. Quotewith the resources and technology we have it would only take a short while - IF CA wanted to stop it It's not Cali's jurisdiction, it's Federal. Cali did pass I believe it was prop 200 to deny medical svs I think it was; Cali has taken measures that are within their jurisdiction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stitch 0 #61 June 17, 2010 This thread is a hoot. Can anybody that posts here on a regular basis keep the same political agenda for more than a week ? The last time I brought up immigration control in this forum I got flamed. Poor liberals said I was trying to keep the next Einstien or Shakespeare from entering the country and getting a chance at showing their potential. Now everybody is doing a 180 again. Gotta love it."No cookies for you"- GFD "I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65 Don't be a "Racer Hater" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #62 June 17, 2010 QuoteThis thread is a hoot. Can anybody that posts here on a regular basis keep the same political agenda for more than a week ? The last time I brought up immigration control in this forum I got flamed. Poor liberals said I was trying to keep the next Einstien or Shakespeare from entering the country and getting a chance at showing their potential. Now everybody is doing a 180 again. Gotta love it. Which liberals are doing a 180? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LongWayToFall 0 #63 June 17, 2010 Yes I agree, the employers need to be held accountable. Historically this has been a joke though, and another area that needs to be addressed. A good number of employers, especially small business, are actually America loving citizens, and do follow the law. As it stands, they have no way of verifying these documents, and they unknowingly hire illegals. As far as the bank account thing goes, I am talking about opening a bank account, here in the US. Swarrzennegger (not even going to try to spell it haha) and Clinton, I believe, advocated to US banks that they accept the foreign ID card as a legitimate ID, to allow them to open accounts. It wasn't like that before. Fences DO work. They should be installed in high traffic areas, as one of many different deterrents. So they build a tunnel, so what? Tunnels are found and filled in on a frequent basis. The effort to build a tunnel is usually only reserved for drug smugglers, not just your average border jumper. Areas in towns with low fences are such a joke, big groups get together and all jump the fence at once and then run into alleyways, houses, wherever, and thanks to the freedom the American citizen has, they technically should not be racially profiled for being Mexican and are immediately free. This article talks about double wall fencing, and it makes perfect sense to use in areas with dense populations on either side. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5323928 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 136 #64 June 17, 2010 how do you want your border ? Berlin wall style ? Gaza wall style ? Great China wall style ? scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LongWayToFall 0 #65 June 17, 2010 How about open border? Yeah, lets REALLY fuck the poor up good, that will teach em for being, well, poor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 18 #66 June 17, 2010 Quote Quote This thread is a hoot. Can anybody that posts here on a regular basis keep the same political agenda for more than a week ? The last time I brought up immigration control in this forum I got flamed. Poor liberals said I was trying to keep the next Einstien or Shakespeare from entering the country and getting a chance at showing their potential. Now everybody is doing a 180 again. Gotta love it. Which liberals are doing a 180? I dont know which ones either Most of them are just chasing their tails That is a 360, right?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites futuredivot 0 #67 June 17, 2010 Quoteone that disproves the idea that most illegals won't go to court, but it is still an extremely rare case Not "opinion", fact. one disproves most.... extremely rare Am I the only one that wonders how this would ever make sense? Makes me question how you arrive at your factsYou are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lucky... 0 #68 June 17, 2010 Quote Quote Quote This thread is a hoot. Can anybody that posts here on a regular basis keep the same political agenda for more than a week ? The last time I brought up immigration control in this forum I got flamed. Poor liberals said I was trying to keep the next Einstien or Shakespeare from entering the country and getting a chance at showing their potential. Now everybody is doing a 180 again. Gotta love it. Which liberals are doing a 180? I dont know which ones either Most of them are just chasing their tails That is a 360, right? Well, if you consider trying to unfuck years of Republican messes, yea, that's what we're doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pirana 0 #69 June 17, 2010 QuoteCheck this shit out..... you get no citizen rights in this country because you are F**king illegal. How about that!!!! I'm with you on that. I still can't figure out why it can't be that simple. If a person is not a citizen they should have absolutely zero benefits, and extremely limited rights (such as the right to a quick, painless deportation). Seems like the solution is easy. Make illegal entry as difficult as possible and make deportation immediate, cheap, painless - with no exceptions granted. I'm sure some politicians will tell us that "It's complicatd."" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 18 #70 June 17, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote This thread is a hoot. Can anybody that posts here on a regular basis keep the same political agenda for more than a week ? The last time I brought up immigration control in this forum I got flamed. Poor liberals said I was trying to keep the next Einstien or Shakespeare from entering the country and getting a chance at showing their potential. Now everybody is doing a 180 again. Gotta love it. Which liberals are doing a 180? I dont know which ones either Most of them are just chasing their tails That is a 360, right? Well, if you consider trying to unfuck years of Republican messes, yea, that's what we're doing. Round and Round they go And where they stop, they dont even know"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #71 June 17, 2010 Quote how do you want your border ? Berlin wall style ? Gaza wall style ? Great China wall style ? http://www.storyhouse.org/fish/4095croc.jpg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChangoLanzao 0 #72 June 17, 2010 Quote Quote I live in San Diego. We have a big border fence. The Mexicans tunnel under it all of the time. Not a deterrent. it is not a deterrent only becasue there is little local effort put forth to stop it, shoot em, drown em, poison em, put snakes in the tunnels, I really don't care, illegal is illegal When we build the fence around Arizona, this is exactly what we're going to do to the white supremacists trapped inside Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #73 June 17, 2010 Quotethe border has been out of control for decades. And it's getting worse, and time to do something about it. Uptick in Violence Forces Closing of Parkland Along Mexico Border to Americans http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/16/closes-park-land-mexico-border-americans/ Mexican Drug Cartel Reportedly Plotted to Blow Up Texas Dam http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/04/mexican-drug-cartel-reportedly-plotted-blow-texas-dam/?test=latestnews Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChangoLanzao 0 #74 June 17, 2010 QuoteYes I agree, the employers need to be held accountable. Historically this has been a joke though, and another area that needs to be addressed. Here ya go! Do your part. Be a true patriot. Turn somebody in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #75 June 17, 2010 Skipping the fence and moving towards open immigration sounds good to me. With real wages falling we need cheap labor for food production, landscaping, etc. With a daily minimum wage of 54.47 pesos ($4.32) in there home country lots of Mexicans are happy to hop the border for the US $7.25 an hour ($58 a day) and better 'low' paid jobs. When the last of my family came over everyone in good health was welcome legally except the Chinese. I can't come up with a good moral reason it should be different today apart from ceasing to discriminate against Asians. It will create downward wage pressure, but not to the same degree as the alternative with the work outsourced to people's home countries where the salaries can be much smaller because they don't need to cover American costs of living. The low wage workers may not 'pay their own way' but that's already the case with over 40% of Americans having negative income tax rates and the bottom 50% covering just 3% of the tab. Drug violence is the real problem of our porous borders and is better addressed through legalization. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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stitch 0 #61 June 17, 2010 This thread is a hoot. Can anybody that posts here on a regular basis keep the same political agenda for more than a week ? The last time I brought up immigration control in this forum I got flamed. Poor liberals said I was trying to keep the next Einstien or Shakespeare from entering the country and getting a chance at showing their potential. Now everybody is doing a 180 again. Gotta love it."No cookies for you"- GFD "I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65 Don't be a "Racer Hater" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #62 June 17, 2010 QuoteThis thread is a hoot. Can anybody that posts here on a regular basis keep the same political agenda for more than a week ? The last time I brought up immigration control in this forum I got flamed. Poor liberals said I was trying to keep the next Einstien or Shakespeare from entering the country and getting a chance at showing their potential. Now everybody is doing a 180 again. Gotta love it. Which liberals are doing a 180? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #63 June 17, 2010 Yes I agree, the employers need to be held accountable. Historically this has been a joke though, and another area that needs to be addressed. A good number of employers, especially small business, are actually America loving citizens, and do follow the law. As it stands, they have no way of verifying these documents, and they unknowingly hire illegals. As far as the bank account thing goes, I am talking about opening a bank account, here in the US. Swarrzennegger (not even going to try to spell it haha) and Clinton, I believe, advocated to US banks that they accept the foreign ID card as a legitimate ID, to allow them to open accounts. It wasn't like that before. Fences DO work. They should be installed in high traffic areas, as one of many different deterrents. So they build a tunnel, so what? Tunnels are found and filled in on a frequent basis. The effort to build a tunnel is usually only reserved for drug smugglers, not just your average border jumper. Areas in towns with low fences are such a joke, big groups get together and all jump the fence at once and then run into alleyways, houses, wherever, and thanks to the freedom the American citizen has, they technically should not be racially profiled for being Mexican and are immediately free. This article talks about double wall fencing, and it makes perfect sense to use in areas with dense populations on either side. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5323928 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 136 #64 June 17, 2010 how do you want your border ? Berlin wall style ? Gaza wall style ? Great China wall style ? scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #65 June 17, 2010 How about open border? Yeah, lets REALLY fuck the poor up good, that will teach em for being, well, poor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #66 June 17, 2010 Quote Quote This thread is a hoot. Can anybody that posts here on a regular basis keep the same political agenda for more than a week ? The last time I brought up immigration control in this forum I got flamed. Poor liberals said I was trying to keep the next Einstien or Shakespeare from entering the country and getting a chance at showing their potential. Now everybody is doing a 180 again. Gotta love it. Which liberals are doing a 180? I dont know which ones either Most of them are just chasing their tails That is a 360, right?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #67 June 17, 2010 Quoteone that disproves the idea that most illegals won't go to court, but it is still an extremely rare case Not "opinion", fact. one disproves most.... extremely rare Am I the only one that wonders how this would ever make sense? Makes me question how you arrive at your factsYou are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #68 June 17, 2010 Quote Quote Quote This thread is a hoot. Can anybody that posts here on a regular basis keep the same political agenda for more than a week ? The last time I brought up immigration control in this forum I got flamed. Poor liberals said I was trying to keep the next Einstien or Shakespeare from entering the country and getting a chance at showing their potential. Now everybody is doing a 180 again. Gotta love it. Which liberals are doing a 180? I dont know which ones either Most of them are just chasing their tails That is a 360, right? Well, if you consider trying to unfuck years of Republican messes, yea, that's what we're doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #69 June 17, 2010 QuoteCheck this shit out..... you get no citizen rights in this country because you are F**king illegal. How about that!!!! I'm with you on that. I still can't figure out why it can't be that simple. If a person is not a citizen they should have absolutely zero benefits, and extremely limited rights (such as the right to a quick, painless deportation). Seems like the solution is easy. Make illegal entry as difficult as possible and make deportation immediate, cheap, painless - with no exceptions granted. I'm sure some politicians will tell us that "It's complicatd."" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #70 June 17, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote This thread is a hoot. Can anybody that posts here on a regular basis keep the same political agenda for more than a week ? The last time I brought up immigration control in this forum I got flamed. Poor liberals said I was trying to keep the next Einstien or Shakespeare from entering the country and getting a chance at showing their potential. Now everybody is doing a 180 again. Gotta love it. Which liberals are doing a 180? I dont know which ones either Most of them are just chasing their tails That is a 360, right? Well, if you consider trying to unfuck years of Republican messes, yea, that's what we're doing. Round and Round they go And where they stop, they dont even know"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #71 June 17, 2010 Quote how do you want your border ? Berlin wall style ? Gaza wall style ? Great China wall style ? http://www.storyhouse.org/fish/4095croc.jpg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #72 June 17, 2010 Quote Quote I live in San Diego. We have a big border fence. The Mexicans tunnel under it all of the time. Not a deterrent. it is not a deterrent only becasue there is little local effort put forth to stop it, shoot em, drown em, poison em, put snakes in the tunnels, I really don't care, illegal is illegal When we build the fence around Arizona, this is exactly what we're going to do to the white supremacists trapped inside Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #73 June 17, 2010 Quotethe border has been out of control for decades. And it's getting worse, and time to do something about it. Uptick in Violence Forces Closing of Parkland Along Mexico Border to Americans http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/16/closes-park-land-mexico-border-americans/ Mexican Drug Cartel Reportedly Plotted to Blow Up Texas Dam http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/04/mexican-drug-cartel-reportedly-plotted-blow-texas-dam/?test=latestnews Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #74 June 17, 2010 QuoteYes I agree, the employers need to be held accountable. Historically this has been a joke though, and another area that needs to be addressed. Here ya go! Do your part. Be a true patriot. Turn somebody in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #75 June 17, 2010 Skipping the fence and moving towards open immigration sounds good to me. With real wages falling we need cheap labor for food production, landscaping, etc. With a daily minimum wage of 54.47 pesos ($4.32) in there home country lots of Mexicans are happy to hop the border for the US $7.25 an hour ($58 a day) and better 'low' paid jobs. When the last of my family came over everyone in good health was welcome legally except the Chinese. I can't come up with a good moral reason it should be different today apart from ceasing to discriminate against Asians. It will create downward wage pressure, but not to the same degree as the alternative with the work outsourced to people's home countries where the salaries can be much smaller because they don't need to cover American costs of living. The low wage workers may not 'pay their own way' but that's already the case with over 40% of Americans having negative income tax rates and the bottom 50% covering just 3% of the tab. Drug violence is the real problem of our porous borders and is better addressed through legalization. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
