kelpdiver 2 #526 January 24, 2012 Quote Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? Existing laws aren't easy to enforce because they are so easy to circumvent. And rights are difficult to protect if you write laws that solve that problem. You end up having to bias one over the other, and in this country, rights win. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #527 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuote Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? Existing laws aren't easy to enforce because they are so easy to circumvent. And rights are difficult to protect if you write laws that solve that problem. You end up having to bias one over the other, and in this country, rights win. According to SCOTUS (Heller decision), mentally ill and convicted felons do not have the right to own guns.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #528 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWhy would a college student need to wear a gun just to go to the grocery store to get orange juice? He must be a nutter! Shopper shoots knife-wielding robber Rockdale News: http://www.rockdalenews.com/archives/4923/ Personal account: http://gunssavelives.net/self-defense/conyers-ga-shopper-shoots-knife-wielding-robber/ Your lame attempts to justify allowing mentally ill people and convicted felons to have guns is just absurd. He's not. He seems to have opposed ineffective additional laws in lieu of simply enforcing the existing laws, which when enforced, do prohibit the mentally ill and felons from owning. Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? Existing laws aren't easy to enforce because they are so easy to circumvent. We see that almost daily. So your beef should be with the police, not the Legislature. Nope. [email] The legislatures have made rules that prevent the police from effectively enforcing the laws prohibiting felons and nutters from owning guns. The proof of that is the ease with which they do get guns.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #529 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? Existing laws aren't easy to enforce because they are so easy to circumvent. And rights are difficult to protect if you write laws that solve that problem. You end up having to bias one over the other, and in this country, rights win. According to SCOTUS (Heller decision), mentally ill and convicted felons do not have the right to own guns. That's correct - got those numbers for GCA 68 disqualified and convicted felons that purchased from gun stores yet?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #530 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? Existing laws aren't easy to enforce because they are so easy to circumvent. And rights are difficult to protect if you write laws that solve that problem. You end up having to bias one over the other, and in this country, rights win. According to SCOTUS (Heller decision), mentally ill and convicted felons do not have the right to own guns. That's correct - got those numbers for GCA 68 disqualified and convicted felons that purchased from gun stores yet? A local gun dealer (who is a friend of mine) told me the other day of a person who came in and tried to by a shot gun. He did the NICS thing and it came back that the man could not own a gun (he does NICS or requires and IA permit to purchase regardless of the gun type) Next thing he know the BATF is at his door wanting inof on this guy as they were going after him The system works Criminal ignore the systems (or they are idiots like this guy was)"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #531 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? Existing laws aren't easy to enforce because they are so easy to circumvent. And rights are difficult to protect if you write laws that solve that problem. You end up having to bias one over the other, and in this country, rights win. According to SCOTUS (Heller decision), mentally ill and convicted felons do not have the right to own guns. That's correct - got those numbers for GCA 68 disqualified and convicted felons that purchased from gun stores yet? A local gun dealer (who is a friend of mine) told me the other day of a person who came in and tried to by a shot gun. He did the NICS thing and it came back that the man could not own a gun (he does NICS or requires and IA permit to purchase regardless of the gun type) Next thing he know the BATF is at his door wanting inof on this guy as they were going after him The system works Criminal ignore the systems (or they are idiots like this guy was) System didn't work for Rep. Giffords, did it? Or the folks that were killed by Loughner and Cho. Saying the system works when it has such glaring problems is absurd.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #532 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? Existing laws aren't easy to enforce because they are so easy to circumvent. And rights are difficult to protect if you write laws that solve that problem. You end up having to bias one over the other, and in this country, rights win. According to SCOTUS (Heller decision), mentally ill and convicted felons do not have the right to own guns. That's correct - got those numbers for GCA 68 disqualified and convicted felons that purchased from gun stores yet? A local gun dealer (who is a friend of mine) told me the other day of a person who came in and tried to by a shot gun. He did the NICS thing and it came back that the man could not own a gun (he does NICS or requires and IA permit to purchase regardless of the gun type) Next thing he know the BATF is at his door wanting inof on this guy as they were going after him The system works Criminal ignore the systems (or they are idiots like this guy was) System didn't work for Rep. Giffords, did it? Or the folks that were killed by Loughner and Cho. Saying the system works when it has such glaring problems is absurd. Drunk driving laws work ? OSHA rules keep all emploees from getting hurt or killed? EP's and reserve chutes stopped all skydiving fatalities? Strawman on your part again"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #533 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? Existing laws aren't easy to enforce because they are so easy to circumvent. And rights are difficult to protect if you write laws that solve that problem. You end up having to bias one over the other, and in this country, rights win. According to SCOTUS (Heller decision), mentally ill and convicted felons do not have the right to own guns. That's correct - got those numbers for GCA 68 disqualified and convicted felons that purchased from gun stores yet? A local gun dealer (who is a friend of mine) told me the other day of a person who came in and tried to by a shot gun. He did the NICS thing and it came back that the man could not own a gun (he does NICS or requires and IA permit to purchase regardless of the gun type) Next thing he know the BATF is at his door wanting inof on this guy as they were going after him The system works Criminal ignore the systems (or they are idiots like this guy was) System didn't work for Rep. Giffords, did it? Or the folks that were killed by Loughner and Cho. Saying the system works when it has such glaring problems is absurd. Drunk driving laws work ? OSHA rules keep all emploees from getting hurt or killed? EP's and reserve chutes stopped all skydiving fatalities? Strawman on your part again The system doesn't work. That is fact.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #534 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? Existing laws aren't easy to enforce because they are so easy to circumvent. And rights are difficult to protect if you write laws that solve that problem. You end up having to bias one over the other, and in this country, rights win. According to SCOTUS (Heller decision), mentally ill and convicted felons do not have the right to own guns. That's correct - got those numbers for GCA 68 disqualified and convicted felons that purchased from gun stores yet? A local gun dealer (who is a friend of mine) told me the other day of a person who came in and tried to by a shot gun. He did the NICS thing and it came back that the man could not own a gun (he does NICS or requires and IA permit to purchase regardless of the gun type) Next thing he know the BATF is at his door wanting inof on this guy as they were going after him The system works Criminal ignore the systems (or they are idiots like this guy was) System didn't work for Rep. Giffords, did it? Or the folks that were killed by Loughner and Cho. Saying the system works when it has such glaring problems is absurd. Drunk driving laws work ? OSHA rules keep all emploees from getting hurt or killed? EP's and reserve chutes stopped all skydiving fatalities? Strawman on your part again The system doesn't work. That is fact. And perfection is a pipe dream and this is fact you can not change even with your desired total ban of gun ownership"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #535 January 25, 2012 So nothing more can be done in your opinion. We just have to accept people like Cho and Loughner and the Christmas day killer as collateral damage because you don't want a little inconvenience in your life. Pretty SELFISH of you.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #536 January 25, 2012 QuoteSystem didn't work for Rep. Giffords, did it? Or the folks that were killed by Loughner and Cho. Saying the system works when it has such glaring problems is absurd. So you're saying that if a system doesn't work to perfection 100% of the time, then it cannot be said to that "the system works". Then according to you, because parachute systems sometimes fail, then it cannot be said that "parachute systems work". In fact, by that standard, no system can be said to work. And thus, the standard of "works" becomes nonsensical. Just like your comment. Just because a system fails now and then, doesn't mean that it should be characterized as "not working". And if you have some suggestion as to how to improve the system so that it fails less often, with no bad side effects, we're listening. Selfish? Heck yeah, I'm selfish with freedom, for myself and everyone else. What word should we use to describe people who would take freedom away from others who have not been adjudicated to be mentally unfit? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #537 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteSystem didn't work for Rep. Giffords, did it? Or the folks that were killed by Loughner and Cho. Saying the system works when it has such glaring problems is absurd. So you're saying that if a system doesn't work to perfection 100% of the time, then it cannot be said to that "the system works". Then according to you, because parachute systems sometimes fail, then it cannot be said that "parachute systems work". In fact, by that standard, no system can be said to work. And thus, the standard of "works" becomes nonsensical. Just like your comment. We continue to improve parachute systems - fatalities due to malfunctions are down. We continue to improve cars - fatalities due to mechanical failures are down. We continue to improve airplanes and their systems - fatalities due to mechanical and system failures are down. DUI laws are continually assessed and improved. DUI deaths are down. Why should ineffective laws relating to guns be ignored when they CLEARLY have problems? With your and Marc's attitude we'd still be jumping rigs with capewells.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #538 January 25, 2012 QuoteWe continue to improve parachute systems - fatalities due to malfunctions are down. We continue to improve cars - fatalities due to mechanical failures are down. We continue to improve airplanes and their systems - fatalities due to mechanical and system failures are down. DUI laws are continually assessed and improved. DUI deaths are down. Gun and crime laws are also continually being improved, and gun crime rates have been dropping for two decades, and gun crime rates are now at a 40-year-low. The system you're complaining about HAS been improving, and dramatically so. Just because some bad things continue to happen, and will always happen, doesn't mean that the system in general is not working. QuoteWhy should ineffective laws relating to guns be ignored when they CLEARLY have problems? If you have some suggestion as to how to improve the system so that it fails less often, with no bad side effects, we're listening. Quit complaining, and start offering suggestions for improvement. What's your plan? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #539 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteWhy should ineffective laws relating to guns be ignored when they CLEARLY have problems? If you have some suggestion as to how to improve the system so that it fails less often, with no bad side effects, we're listening. Asked and answered previously.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #540 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteIf you have some suggestion as to how to improve the system so that it fails less often, with no bad side effects, we're listening. Asked and answered previously. Well lookie there. You have some brilliant idea which will stop mass murderers, and yet you can't be bothered to explain it more than once? I would think that if you had such a brilliant idea, that you would be shouting it from the rooftops! The world would beat a path to your door for your answers. But no, it's too much trouble for you to have to present it again. People's lives are at stake, but you can't bother to type a few words on your keyboard. Not even provide a link to your previous explanation. SELFISH. Then again, maybe it's just because you're idea has no pragmatic merit or tramples upon the Constitution, and you don't want to have to take the criticism that would come forth. It's easier to sit on the sidelines and snipe at everyone else, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #541 January 25, 2012 Both of you cut it out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #542 January 25, 2012 Quote So nothing more can be done in your opinion. We just have to accept people like Cho and Loughner and the Christmas day killer as collateral damage because you don't want a little inconvenience in your life. Civil liberties are such a burden, aren't they? Too bad we can't just move to China or England and be spared them. The right to bear arms and defend oneself doesn't prevent criminal action with firearms. The right to free speech and religion means accepting Nazi marches and abortion clinic protestors. It also means accepting mosques in NYC, and Christian cults in Montana. Freedom isn't free. You'd sell it out in a heartbeat, but we have a Constitution that prevents this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #543 January 25, 2012 There's nothing in the Constitution that would prevent checking on gun purchases and transfers to be much more thorough than it is now, without depriving sane, law abiding adults such as yourself of any rights.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #544 January 25, 2012 Quote There's nothing in the Constitution that would prevent checking on gun purchases and transfers to be much more thorough than it is now, without depriving sane, law abiding adults such as yourself of any rights. if it is to successfully prevent the incidents you keep mentioning, yes, it would. (Though we already know in Cho's case the process was there, just not executed) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #545 January 25, 2012 QuoteSystem didn't work for Rep. Giffords, did it? Or the folks that were killed by Loughner and Cho. So, where where Loughner or Cho's GCA 68 bars in the system? QuoteSaying the system works when it has such glaring problems is absurd. Still don't have those numbers to back up your claim, eh?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #546 January 25, 2012 Quote QuoteSaying the system works when it has such glaring problems is absurd. Still don't have those numbers to back up your claim, eh? So you don't think this indicates a problem.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #547 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuote QuoteSaying the system works when it has such glaring problems is absurd. Still don't have those numbers to back up your claim, eh? So you don't think this indicates a problem. Never made that claim, no - another one of your strawmen. "History of mental illness" doesn't cut it unless it triggers GCA restrictions - it's a red herring.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #548 January 25, 2012 Quote So nothing more can be done in your opinion. We just have to accept people like Cho and Loughner and the Christmas day killer as collateral damage because you don't want a little inconvenience in your life. Pretty SELFISH of you. Nice try Lame but nice try just the same "America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #549 January 25, 2012 We all know how the gun lobby looks at the situation...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #550 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote QuoteSaying the system works when it has such glaring problems is absurd. Still don't have those numbers to back up your claim, eh? So you don't think this indicates a problem. Never made that claim, no - another one of your strawmen. "History of mental illness" doesn't cut it unless it triggers GCA restrictions - it's a red herring. Nice way to weasel out of answering. Do you think the very large number of gun murders committed by mentally ill people is a problem?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
