matthewcline 0 #451 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteI see no issue with responsible gun ownership and registration. Those who scream it is against the Constitution to require a formal register format, i think need to step back and rethink their position Registration has lead to confiscation. And I seriously doubt the founding fathers would have thought that registration would be a good idea.Aside fro m the usual Nazi Germany line, when has this happened? Remember they wanted the 2nd to be able to fight against a rogue government..... Hard to do when they govt knows what you have. I think one can still fight if need be, but as they are all just internet tough guys it is a none factor. We know what the GOV has, and in another thread knowing that may be why some are not going to stand up. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #452 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteRegistration has lead to confiscation. And I seriously doubt the founding fathers would have thought that registration would be a good idea. Remember they wanted the 2nd to be able to fight against a rogue government..... Hard to do when they govt knows what you have. Aside fro m the usual Nazi Germany line, when has this happened? Registration has led to confiscation in Germany, in Russia, in the UK, in Canada, in Aus and NZ, and right here in the USA. QuoteI think one can still fight if need be, but as they are all just internet tough guys it is a none factor. Ignoring your worthless insult, how would you propose anyone fight a government without weapons? QuoteWe know what the GOV has, and in another thread knowing that may be why some are not going to stand up. Can you think of instances where poorly armed forces fought a bigger badder opponents to a standstill? I can.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #453 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteRegistration has lead to confiscation. And I seriously doubt the founding fathers would have thought that registration would be a good idea. Remember they wanted the 2nd to be able to fight against a rogue government..... Hard to do when they govt knows what you have. Aside fro m the usual Nazi Germany line, when has this happened? Registration has led to confiscation in Germany, in Russia, in the UK, in Canada, in Aus and NZ, and right here in the USA. In the USA? Educate me. QuoteI think one can still fight if need be, but as they are all just internet tough guys it is a none factor. Ignoring your worthless insult, how would you propose anyone fight a government without weapons?Thanks for making my point Kennedy, it wasn't and insult, but a statement of internet truth. It is being fought every day, by smart people who use intellect over brawn, but also know brawn has a place and time, plus I never said they should fight with out weapons, that was your leap. QuoteWe know what the GOV has, and in another thread knowing that may be why some are not going to stand up. Can you think of instances where poorly armed forces fought a bigger badder opponents to a standstill? I can. Several. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #454 January 17, 2012 QuoteRegistration has led to confiscation in Germany, in Russia, in the UK, in Canada, in Aus and NZ, and right here in the USA. In the USA? Educate me. Two recent examples- the SKS rifles in Californa Katrina Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #455 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteDr. Kallend: I assume you are capable of answering simple questions put to you in the English Language. Therefore, for emphasis: How would you have prevented these shootings without depriving the law abiding of their rights? I'd take the advice of experts on mental illness and the Constitution, rather than pretending that there isn't a problem (like you do). We've had experts on mental health participate in these conversations. Don't recall you participating, however, seemed to be more Quade's thing. I suspect you'd prefer the take of Constitutional lawyers, at least the ones from the ACLU side of the debate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #456 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteRegistration has led to confiscation in Germany, in Russia, in the UK, in Canada, in Aus and NZ, and right here in the USA. In the USA? Educate me. Two recent examples- the SKS rifles in Californa Katrina Did the Mayor of New Orleans use registrations or door to door investigating? The SKS's, those aren't legal, in California, to begin with right? So how did that go down? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #457 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteRegistration has led to confiscation in Germany, in Russia, in the UK, in Canada, in Aus and NZ, and right here in the USA. In the USA? Educate me. Most recently after Roberti-Roos passed in Cali. People had to sell weapons out of state or give them up to the police. Of course, you'll disregard my statement since I'm just one of those 'internet tough guys' that think that the citizenry should and would resist. QuoteQuoteQuoteI think one can still fight if need be, but as they are all just internet tough guys it is a none factor. Ignoring your worthless insult, how would you propose anyone fight a government without weapons? Thanks for making my point Kennedy, it wasn't and insult, but a statement of internet truth. It absolutely *was* an insult. Put as much glitter on it as you like, a turd is still a turd. QuoteIt is being fought every day, by smart people who use intellect over brawn, but also know brawn has a place and time, plus I never said they should fight with out weapons, that was your leap. Some of those 'intellect over brawn' folks are also folks who would resist against the goverment...so are they smart or more of your 'internet tough guys'?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #458 January 17, 2012 QuoteThe SKS's, those aren't legal, in California, to begin with right? So how did that go down? INcorrect - they *were* legal before Roberti-Roos.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #459 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteRegistration has led to confiscation in Germany, in Russia, in the UK, in Canada, in Aus and NZ, and right here in the USA. In the USA? Educate me. Most recently after Roberti-Roos passed in Cali. People had to sell weapons out of state or give them up to the police. Of course, you'll disregard my statement since I'm just one of those 'internet tough guys' that think that the citizenry should and would resist. QuoteQuoteQuoteI think one can still fight if need be, but as they are all just internet tough guys it is a none factor. Ignoring your worthless insult, how would you propose anyone fight a government without weapons? Thanks for making my point Kennedy, it wasn't and insult, but a statement of internet truth. It absolutely *was* an insult. Put as much glitter on it as you like, a turd is still a turd. QuoteIt is being fought every day, by smart people who use intellect over brawn, but also know brawn has a place and time, plus I never said they should fight with out weapons, that was your leap. Some of those 'intellect over brawn' folks are also folks who would resist against the goverment...so are they smart or more of your 'internet tough guys'? Hi Mike. "Internet tough guys", you have used the term too, every one here has and has seen the cartoon (several version are out there) of the tough guy at his computer, arguing away, only to not go and do any thing. Oddly people you despise (I may have the wrong word there, loath might be better) are standing up and acting (OWS et al). Why do you and Kennedy seem to take it so personal? It is the internet, SC of Dropzone.com for fucks sake. The Californians could have challenge the laws Constitutionality in Court, did any one? Or did they meekly hand them in, then go and bash away on their blogs? Re-read what I wrote, I said; They use intellect over brawn, but know when to use brawn. An example: Those fellows in AZ, I think they are a bunch of asshats for their white power views (OK, that may be a rumor), but they used their intellect and brawn, with out violence. They went and stood with OWS-AZ-Phoenix and carried openly. But still this a thread about "nutters" and how we should not let them have a gun. Problem is how to identify the "nutter" before he (or she) kills. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #460 January 17, 2012 Mike, it isn't worth it. He's already decided that we don't know shit, that every member of the armed forces is a mindless drone that will follow any order, that it's not worth his time to educate himself, and anyone who mentions force is full if keyboard bravado. You and I know about California, NYC, and all the other cases. There is no good reason do registration. It exists only to control and punish nonviolent, otherwise non criminal gun owners. See Haynes v. U.S. (scotus 1968).witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #461 January 17, 2012 http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.php Why single out SKS? the list is huge. Did SKS get added as an amendment after 1989? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #462 January 17, 2012 QuoteMike, it isn't worth it. He's already decided that we don't know shit, that every member of the armed forces is a mindless drone that will follow any order, that it's not worth his time to educate himself, and anyone who mentions force is full if keyboard bravado. You and I know about California, NYC, and all the other cases. There is no good reason do registration. It exists only to control and punish nonviolent, otherwise non criminal gun owners. See Haynes v. U.S. (scotus 1968). Wow, You don't know me at all, do you? So, you see NO good reason for Registration of fire arms? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #463 January 17, 2012 In 7-1 decision, the Court ruled in favor of Haynes. Earl Warren dissented in a one sentence opinion and Thurgood Marshall did not participate in the ruling. As with many other 5th amendment cases, felons and others prohibited from possessing firearms could not be compelled to incriminate themselves through registration.[1][2] The National Firearm Act was amended after Haynes and the new registration provision was upheld in United States v. Freed, 401 U.S. 601 (1971).[3] Since the decision offers felons (and, by extrapolation, all other prohibited possessors) a considerable degree of immunity from gun registration, it is often cited[dubious – discuss] in the American gun rights debate.[citation needed] [edit] Odd pick. A Felon, has a gun, illegally, and that case is the argument AGAINST registration? Plus, it was a 5th amendment case according to wikipedia, of course. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #464 January 17, 2012 Quotehttp://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.php Why single out SKS? the list is huge. Did SKS get added as an amendment after 1989? Matt I don't know if it was part of the original law, or added afterward.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #465 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteMike, it isn't worth it. He's already decided that we don't know shit, that every member of the armed forces is a mindless drone that will follow any order, that it's not worth his time to educate himself, and anyone who mentions force is full if keyboard bravado. You and I know about California, NYC, and all the other cases. There is no good reason do registration. It exists only to control and punish nonviolent, otherwise non criminal gun owners. See Haynes v. U.S. (scotus 1968). Wow, You don't know me at all, do you? And you don't know Kennedy or I at all, but have no problems with labeling us as 'internet tough guys'. Wow. QuoteSo, you see NO good reason for Registration of fire arms? Matt Absolutely none. What do you see as good reasons?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #466 January 17, 2012 QuoteOdd pick. Not really. QuoteA Felon, has a gun, illegally, and that case is the argument AGAINST registration? Plus, it was a 5th amendment case according to wikipedia, of course. Matt Given that the felon ALREADY has an illegal gun, what makes you think that he's going to pop down to the local PD and register it, pray tell?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #467 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteOdd pick. Not really. QuoteA Felon, has a gun, illegally, and that case is the argument AGAINST registration? Plus, it was a 5th amendment case according to wikipedia, of course. Matt Given that the felon ALREADY has an illegal gun, what makes you think that he's going to pop down to the local PD and register it, pray tell? I don't, which is why I think it is a bad argument AGAINST registration. Now a registration process could help to deter some from getting a gun who should not have one, say a court deemed "nutter". Again there is a problem we have no easy solution for. It could also help to account for stolen weapons faster if you had to register and be responsible for them. I never called you or Kennedy Internet tough guys, you two put that coat on your selves. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #468 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuoteGiven that the felon ALREADY has an illegal gun, what makes you think that he's going to pop down to the local PD and register it, pray tell? I don't, which is why I think it is a bad argument AGAINST registration. If the point of a registry is to (somehow) prevent crime, I would say that criminal *NOT* having to register any weapons would be a good argument against requiring legal owners to do so. QuoteNow a registration process could help to deter some from getting a gun who should not have one, say a court deemed "nutter". And just *how* is it going to do that, since registration would happen *AFTER* the illegal sale to a person that was blocked from NICS? QuoteIt could also help to account for stolen weapons faster if you had to register and be responsible for them. How so? Fed.gov *already* has the 1443 that shows that Sgt. Matt bought an AR-15 from Joe's Friendly Gun Shop. QuoteI never called you or Kennedy Internet tough guys, you two put that coat on your selves. "but as they are all internet tough guys it is a none factor" Seems pretty all-inclusive to me... was there a 'present company excluded' that somehow fell out of the post between you hitting send and it appearing on the server?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #469 January 17, 2012 http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/17/miller-why-i-still-havent-bought-gun-dc/ The BS this lady is going through his wrong, but it is not a registration issue, as it is a City Law issue which defines all the parameters of a firearm . Like California State Law, on what is or is not legal. Those should be challenged, but so far there is little to no viable arguments. Arguing against registration redirects the efforts and dilutes the focus. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #470 January 17, 2012 Quotehttp://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.php Why single out SKS? the list is huge. Did SKS get added as an amendment after 1989? You know, it's fairly bad form to ask for education all the while bad mouthing those you wish to get answers from being internet tough guys, taking it all too personally, while doing the same yourself. Pick one persona at a time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #471 January 17, 2012 Quotehttp://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jan/17/miller-why-i-still-havent-bought-gun-dc/ The BS this lady is going through his wrong, but it is not a registration issue, as it is a City Law issue which defines all the parameters of a firearm . Like California State Law, on what is or is not legal. That type of idiocy is exactly why those laws should be struck down. A pistol with 11 rounds (10+1) is A-Ok, but 12+1 is a Horribly Bad Thing and Cannot Be Allowed? Bullshit. QuoteThose should be challenged, but so far there is little to no viable arguments. Arguing against registration redirects the efforts and dilutes the focus. Matt I'm sure that those same 'smart people' are working the registration issue just as they worked the illegal ban issue... it takes time.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #472 January 17, 2012 The internet tough guy really has you steamed? You, put it on you. I mean really Mike, are you raising up in arms against the US over this? Sure there are a few details to work out (integrating the background checks and allowing private sales some how), but if they are in place it will discourage folks, some good sure, but mostly bad. What was your stance on Paul Bremer's order to remove all the Firearms from the hands of the Iraqi People? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #473 January 17, 2012 QuoteThe internet tough guy really has you steamed? You, put it on you. So, there *was* a "present company excluded" that fell out the post before it made it to the server? Why didn't you say so in the first place, then? QuoteI mean really Mike, are you raising up in arms against the US over this? I must have missed where the President has ordered out troops against the citizenry - has that happened yet, or is this just another attempt to paint someone that has a differing view in a negative light? QuoteSure there are a few details to work out (integrating the background checks and allowing private sales some how), but if they are in place it will discourage folks, some good sure, but mostly bad. STILL waiting for you to explain HOW a registry, happening AFTER THE SALE, is somehow going to discourage criminals who ALREADY cannot buy from gun stores and who do NOT have to register due to 5th amendment grounds. QuoteWhat was your stance on Paul Bremer's order to remove all the Firearms from the hands of the Iraqi People? Non-sequitur, and yet ANOTHER attempt to portray in a bad light.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #474 January 17, 2012 QuoteQuotehttp://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.php Why single out SKS? the list is huge. Did SKS get added as an amendment after 1989? You know, it's fairly bad form to ask for education all the while bad mouthing those you wish to get answers from being internet tough guys, taking it all too personally, while doing the same yourself. Pick one persona at a time. It is one persona, I never personally bad mouthed any individual, the two hurt but it, personally put it on them selves. The "educate me" was a little snarky, but the example given back was flawed, it even went from two to one example. I though t I was answering direct replies, like now, I thought that was how a forum works. There are so many folks wasting effort arguing against registration and not against the laws outlawing firearms. Focus on those laws and the registration thing may be a none issue. But, hey I am just a guy, on the internet. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #475 January 17, 2012 I said there are flaws, your trying to make it a post sale registration. Why not at time of sale? right along with the background check? (Why isn't that illegal?) The Bremer question is as relevant to this discussion as Nazi Germany. And, again the effort should be on the Laws or Ownership and the Right to Bear Arms. Put all the time money and effort into that, I support that. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
