Freedom OF religion means freedom FROM religion

[Meso 38]

Since you seem to be one of those people who correctly feel that religion is a personal thing and majority stray from the original teachings- do you not then agree with the topic that us Atheists and such have a right to not being preached to and judged based on our beliefs.

The thread originally was not to say Christians are idiots, but rather to state that the world is run with the idea that it's okay to throw religion around and mix it into laws.

If you want to follow your Gospels, go ahead. But I don't want them creeping their way into law making or into my life against my will.

At schools for example, I think it would be okay to teach religion in an unbiased form. For example, teaching everyone the facts about each and every religion, then if they felt one was correct they could make a descision from there. Because currently it involves basically forcing 1 religion on them with the notion that IT is correct. Not to mention these places would be teaching the now almost standard views of the gay-hating God.

Quite simply put we need a world that doesn't feel the need to exclaim their faith for everything. And rather one where they judge a person based on the way he or she influences others, because majority of Christians here are drunken, drug users and stuff.

And as for everyone saying I`m bitter, I sure as hell am. Society as a whole disgusts me, hypocrits who try tell non-believers they are bad people when their lifestyles are 100x worse.

As for the heart, well it is just a muscle- science proved which parts of the brain effect which feelings etc and nothing has been linked to the heart. Maybe this isn't a good paragraph to state this but let's not forget if the frontal lobe is stimulated in a certain way it can cause religious hallucinations (they believe this is what happened with Joan of Arc) and it's been physically tested and proven. Just proves even more how what we assume is spiritual at times may just be your brain lying.

[mnealtx 0]

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do you not then agree with the topic that us Atheists and such have a right to not being preached to and judged based on our beliefs.

And yet, you claim the right to 'preach to and judge' the Christians based on THEIR beliefs.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[RackJR 0]

not baiting, just wondering where the baseline is.

one of my problems with talking to any religious person, is how slippery the conversation can get without a basic understanding of their platform. however, hearing that the entire bible is not the unalterable word of god makes your position, IMO, untenable. a debate with you about anything biblical leaves you the inevitable (and very annoying) out that "well, i don't subscribe to that interpretation". the post, and your response, about homosexuality, is an excellent example. how can you reconcile your position with the church's position? how can non-believers (atheists, agnostics, whatever you call them) find a reasonable middle ground, when the entire spectrum is already occupied? if we allow that your position is more moderate, and therefore should be accepted, don't we also HAVE to accept the radicals, on the basis of "freedom of religion"? and if the radicals are allowed to exist, what do we do when they drag a homosexual boy in wyoming behind their truck, tie him to a fence and leave him to die, all in the name of god? how do you tell yourself that you don't share in the blame for this crime? your god is the same god as theirs. they might have serious problems with you as well, since you treat the bible as a buffet, taking what you like and leaving the undesired parts.

how long can religion continue to be tolerated, while it allows so many interpretations, many of which give a divine mandate to inflict harm on others?

ryno, if the only message was "love others", as you like to repeat about the gospels, who would disagree with you? as a staunch atheist, i would get in line to clap for the religious leader who preached that. but that isn't the bible, at least, that's not a majority of the bible. or the koran. or the (insert religious text here). i don't think you can pick and choose the parts you like. if one part has been changed to serve the interests of a select few, the rest becomes, at best, suspect. i can only hope that future printings of the bible will do away with the old testament entirely, leave only the gospels, and remove most of the new testament as well. i think the likelihood of that is slim. which leaves me the goal of talking to as many religious people as i can, as often as i can, to try to point out the devastating possibilities the bible mandates. too often, people surround themselves with other people who believe exactly what they believe. it then becomes easy to marginalize anyone different, and suddenly burning them at the stake, or blowing up a bus, somehow becomes reasonable.

maybe you can understand the venom that comes with some of these posts. for myself, it's very easy to get frustrated, exasperated, or seriously fucking angry when talking to religious people, because depending on who you talk to, you're getting an unbelievable smorgasbord of opinions and possibilities. i believe strongly that you should be able to have faith in whatever you want, be it god, your wife, your family, or yourself, or the flying spaghetti monster. but when that faith allows you to infringe on the rights of anyone else, my tolerance moves to zero, and i think that sentiment is reflected in many of these posts. even more so from the few that had it crammed down their throats, and then revolted.

since you seem to enjoy the chatting, please take my questions as anything except rhetorical. while i enjoy the conversation, some of your answers have been vague (although i will thank you for an honest response to my first question), and i tend to prefer more spartan retorts. to each their own, certainly. but i wouldn't mind an answer to these questions. and since this thread so far off the original topic anyway, i don't mind asking here.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[shropshire 0]

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I still do not understand why many still see not one ounce of logic or reason in faith.

Well, that's because there isn't any not a single part of an ounce/gram - that's why it's called faith... You seem to have it, I don't - Who's right and who's wrong? Hard to say, I'm O.K with that, are you?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Meso 38]

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And yet, you claim the right to 'preach to and judge' the Christians based on THEIR beliefs.

You realize that this statement you made would generally be effective but in this case is worthless.

I would have NO problem in letting Christians believe what they like if they stop preaching. Do you think Christians would also agree to that solution? They live the way they want and they don't go trying to convert people by threats of hell. Because they won't.

If religion wasn't preached to the masses we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Do I run into Christians and go "No no no, you can't live like that.. it's wrong.. do this!"... Well I don't, and I don't know any Atheists that do. I'd tell them "I totally disagree with you". But then end it at that. On the other hand Christians try converting constantly.

And quite honestly it is a Christians duty to 'spread the word'. So they will never live and let live. So as an Atheist I have 2 options, either follow their path and defend my beliefs and try counter their spread of religion OR sit back and watch them continue to preach away regardless. There is no option for a loving Christian not to spread the message unless they want to see their loved ones 'burn in hell'.

[jakee 1,257]

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It would be pretty difficult to teach the Gospel as fiction. The very spirit of it is more than enough to enlighten anyone who hears it.

Except for all the people who've read them and not been 'enlightened'.

I guess the spirit gets put on mute every now and then.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,257]

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In regards to the end times. "The end will come like a thief in the night", it wont matter if the signs are recognized or not. I think many have shown that denial is a bit stubborn. It reminds me of "Monty Python and the search for the Holy Grail" When the knight at the bridge gets all his limbs cut off and he still denys he is beaten.

Yes, it is a little like the Black Knight, isn't it?

Every time the end times are declared, and every time the end times fail to materialise it's like another limb gets chopped off, but there it never stops the next wave of loonies declaring that this time it really will be The End.

So far I think the scoreline is;
Deniers: 27,431, End Timers: 0

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[philh 0]

My criteria is testable evidence.
For example, is relativity true? We dont use our feelings to work that out. Our feelings are not going to be able to help us , we cant notice some of the effects that relativity predicts. For example relativity tells us that time runs at a slower pace for moving objects than for stationary objects. Our feelings wont help us becuase if we are moving at speeds that are not close to speed of light then the amount at which time slows down is too small to notice.
But if you travel at speeds close to the speed of light the difference is very large. In particle accelerators we observe these differences and they come in exactly where relativity predicts they should. So we say that relativity is true.

Our feeling and our intution are often wrong . For example. If I traveling at 100mph and you are 200mph are intuition would tell us that our relative speed shoudl be 100mph. this would be correct ; but our intution will probably say that the relative speed is always the difference between the two. But that is not correct.
Lesson: feelings and intution are not good criteria for truth, testable evidence is.

[RonD1120 58]

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/02/25/young-adults-doing-religion-on-their-own-blame-it-on-politics/

Jeffrey Weiss
Contributor

Young Adults Doing Religion on Their Own? Blame It on Politics

Excerpt:

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Imagine my surprise: He (Robert Putnam) and Notre Dame professor David Campbell have co-authored a book scheduled for publication this fall titled "American Grace: How Religion Is Reshaping Our Civic and Political Lives."

So I pinged them, asking what they thought of the Pew report. The bad news: Campbell replied that the book's publishers have asked that they not do media until closer to when the book comes out. The good news: They've been talking about their analysis for a while.

Putnam is the head of Harvard's Saguaro Seminar on civic engagement. The Social Capital blog reported on a presentation Putman and Campbell made last year for the Pew Forum.

No surprise, then, that their data tracked what Pew reported last week:
"Young Americans are dropping out of religion at an alarming rate of 5-6 times the historic rate (30-40 percent have no religion today versus 5-10 percent a generation ago)."

And now their explanation:
"But youth's religious disaffection is largely due to discomfort with religiosity having been tied to conservative politics."

Doing it on your own, IMO, equates with understanding the difference between religion and relationship. In other words, I prefer to walk with Jesus as best I am able, seeking through prayer, fasting and studying the Holy Bible to improve my walk.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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do you not then agree with the topic that us Atheists and such have a right to not being preached to and judged based on our beliefs.

I cannot judge you. I can however make a judgement, just as you can, but my desire is to lead you to Jesus. Believe it or not, I am judged more by those who claim I judge them. You have every right to deny savlvation. You also have to right to accept it. As far as laws of the world go, you may not in some places. I do not accept mans laws as truth. Gods law, as explained in the Gospel, was established so that we would know what sin is, so that we might know grace. Anything that goes against Jesus goes against love.

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The thread originally was not to say Christians are idiots, but rather to state that the world is run with the idea that it's okay to throw religion around and mix it into laws.

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (1jn)

They who seek to mix the spirit with the laws of man are not those who I desire to listen to. They usually are a bit double minded. Either grace is king, or, it isnt. I know this world will never know Heaven, until Jesus returns. So, while you all seek to make it so, you will not be able to, because, you cannot find common ground. The common ground is life. Listen to Peter Tosh... "Everyone is fighting for peace, but love is crying out for justice!"

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And as for everyone saying I`m bitter, I sure as hell am. Society as a whole disgusts me, hypocrits who try tell non-believers they are bad people when their lifestyles are 100x worse.

Its understood man believe me. But your bitterness is toward God, thats why your still bitter. You carry blame in your heart. If you want to blame, its perfectly human, but why blame life? Its like blaming skydiving for fatalities. Even blaming the system of society is bad for your heart... we have to learn how to accept. Before acceptance comes an array of other feelings and emotions, blame, anger, frustration, ect.. But, I will say again, that your emotional responses are much more truthful than others I have heard. Truth is where God is, as hard as it hits sometimes.

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As for the heart, well it is just a muscle- science proved which parts of the brain effect which feelings etc and nothing has been linked to the heart.

Oh no, dont get me wrong, I know the heart is in the mind, just as the mind is in the brain, but, others dont. This is just something that must be revealed I guess.

I understand the feel of most of you posts. You are intelligent, possibly well educated, you found a truth to cling to and it is a part of who you are. I mean, you have Neitzsche as your sign off. Jim Morrison read alot of him as well and he became a very influencial and poetic rock star. listening to someone like me may not do you any good, especially if you are now completely closed to possibility. Respectfully.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Well, that's because there isn't any not a single part of an ounce/gram - that's why it's called faith... You seem to have it, I don't - Who's right and who's wrong? Hard to say, I'm O.K with that, are you?

If your speaking of evidence, then your right, the only evidence I have is in my heart. If your speaking of logic and reason, then I have to disagree, because, I have found both logic and reason in faith.

However, I am okay with others interpreting what truth is to them. There is a universal truth, that alone decides what is right and what is wrong and that in itself intrigues me.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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My criteria is testable evidence.
For example, is relativity true? We dont use our feelings to work that out. Our feelings are not going to be able to help us , we cant notice some of the effects that relativity predicts. For example relativity tells us that time runs at a slower pace for moving objects than for stationary objects. Our feelings wont help us becuase if we are moving at speeds that are not close to speed of light then the amount at which time slows down is too small to notice.
But if you travel at speeds close to the speed of light the difference is very large. In particle accelerators we observe these differences and they come in exactly where relativity predicts they should. So we say that relativity is true.

Our feeling and our intution are often wrong . For example. If I traveling at 100mph and you are 200mph are intuition would tell us that our relative speed shoudl be 100mph. this would be correct ; but our intution will probably say that the relative speed is always the difference between the two. But that is not correct.
Lesson: feelings and intution are not good criteria for truth, testable evidence is.

My post said learned feelings. You do not always have to have evidence to test something do you? I dont know, im asking? I would say no though.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Yes, it is a little like the Black Knight, isn't it?

Every time the end times are declared, and every time the end times fail to materialise it's like another limb gets chopped off, but there it never stops the next wave of loonies declaring that this time it really will be The End.

So far I think the scoreline is;
Deniers: 27,431, End Timers: 0

I have only claimed that soon means inevitably. Jesus was prophesied in the old testament through every book. Many lived and died believing he was and wasnt coming. The deniers then, were wrong, and they forfeited their right to hope in exchange for the glories of this world, which are pleaurable, but not fully complete. Unless you hold that Jesus never was real?

"We didn't start the fire"

[jakee 1,257]

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I have only claimed that soon means inevitably.

Then you would be wrong.

Twice.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[maadmax 0]

Well, that's because there isn't any not a single part of an ounce/gram - that's why it's called faith... You seem to have it, I don't - Who's right and who's wrong? Hard to say, I'm O.K with that, are you?

[shropshire 0]

Sounds nice ... pity it's just poppycock.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[maadmax 0]

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Sounds nice ... pity it's just poppycock.

OK, how can you truly love another person without an unshakable belief, based on faith, in that person and the relalionship you are building. Agreed, most often it is a blind destructive faith. But sometimes it is what we are all desperate to find, the real thing.

[RonD1120 58]

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Faith is not some mythical conjured mental exercise, it is an obligate prerequisite for love. Without faith in another person or God love is impossible. Once faith, then love, is established it either grows and blooms into a wonderful experience or it consumes the deceived. Faith without the production of good works is dead and hollow.

Have you noticed that the naysayers and deniers refuse to acknowledge love. It apparently does not exist in their world, except as narcissism it would seem.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[shropshire 0]

Even more poppycock ... I love my wife & family - they are REAL not figments of mine or someone elses fertile imagination.... REAL... hgaow hard is that to understand. Faith my arse - whoops sorry for being so rude.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[philh 0]

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My criteria is testable evidence.
For example, is relativity true? We dont use our feelings to work that out. Our feelings are not going to be able to help us , we cant notice some of the effects that relativity predicts. For example relativity tells us that time runs at a slower pace for moving objects than for stationary objects. Our feelings wont help us becuase if we are moving at speeds that are not close to speed of light then the amount at which time slows down is too small to notice.
But if you travel at speeds close to the speed of light the difference is very large. In particle accelerators we observe these differences and they come in exactly where relativity predicts they should. So we say that relativity is true.

Our feeling and our intution are often wrong . For example. If I traveling at 100mph and you are 200mph are intuition would tell us that our relative speed shoudl be 100mph. this would be correct ; but our intution will probably say that the relative speed is always the difference between the two. But that is not correct.
Lesson: feelings and intution are not good criteria for truth, testable evidence is.

My post said learned feelings. You do not always have to have evidence to test something do you? I dont know, im asking? I would say no though.

Of course you do, imagine you were on trial for murder, would you like the jury to come to their conclusion based upon their feelings or evidence?

[RonD1120 58]

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Even more poppycock ... I love my wife & family - they are REAL not figments of mine or someone elses fertile imagination.... REAL... hgaow hard is that to understand. Faith my arse - whoops sorry for being so rude.

That's OK, no sweat.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

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Of course you do, imagine you were on trial for murder, would you like the jury to come to their conclusion based upon their feelings or evidence?

Of course they do. Why do you think trial attorneys take acting lessons?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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one of my problems with talking to any religious person, is how slippery the conversation can get without a basic understanding of their platform.

A religion is something that someone follows. There are many religious people, even atheism can be considered a religion. It is about truth. There are Christians who are religious, but not spiritual, this is where you will have the hardest time understanding my "platform". Those who have been touched by the spirit know exactly what I am talking about, and coincidentally, have to "defend" themselves against religious and non religious people alike.

Jesus was ordered crucified by religious people, those who did not know the spirit of God. This is all in the Gospels. Those who crucified the "Lord of Glory" did so because they did not recognize him. The Zeal of the Jews at that time is what carried out the prophesy (the Jews were chosen for their zeal). That is Zeal for God. Sort of Ironic that it was the Zeal for God that killed God in flesh dont you think? But, "The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone". This is a powerful way for the almighty to reveal himself, in the most humble of ways, as one of us, not only that, as one rejected, abused, tortured, and killed. When I really think about this, it is truly magnificent.

Forgive me, but you seem to have missed my point in the last post. It is not the interpretations of the scriptures, but of the spirit behind the scriptures. Im not going to hide behind "I dont subscribe to that interpretation". Im going to explain it as best I can.

It is not mans interpretations of scriptures. It is mans ability/inability to understand, recieve, and express love. If I told you that God is love, yet you are limited in what you know about love (or rather what you believe about it), then you would be limited in expressing, interpreting, and applying this love, in fact, you would also be very vulnerable to anothers' definition of it. Which is and has been happening.

Anyone can say God is love, but then what? What does that mean to you or to the one who hears that? What we know about love is what we know about God.

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how can you reconcile your position with the church's position?

With the Gospel. If homosexuality was an absolute deal breaker, why did Jesus not say it? Regardless, the quest for anyone desiring to live by the spirit is to leave the foolish things of the world behind. Arguing over what is sin and what is not is foolish for those who understand, know, and live by grace. You have to understand that I dont believe anything is impossible with God. Anything. If one lives their entire live enslaved to sin, it does not mean they are not Gods, it is just their path. Refer to the thieves on the crosses next to Jesus.

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how can non-believers (atheists, agnostics, whatever you call them) find a reasonable middle ground, when the entire spectrum is already occupied?

God has been revealing himself since the beginning. Jesus is the perfect example, and he died for sinners. He hung out with sinners. He ate and drank with them, taught them, loved them. I dont believe the entire spectrum of the revelation of God is anywhere close to revealed fully. Jesus tells us that the Holy Spirit, the one he released when he was crucified, will be the counselor and will lead us into ALL truth. If you believe the entire spectrum of truth is already occupied, you wouldnt be that much different than many of the zealous religious people I know. You cannot put a wall around wonder man. We have to stay open and learn from the grace in Jesus as one, not as us and Jesus, but just as Jesus. It is the interpretation (revelation for the spiritual) of grace, not the scriptures, that will usher the presence of God into our natural sinful bodies.

Another way to see it... We are separation so that we can know reconciliation. We are death so that we might know life. When we realize we are mortal, life becomes special, more beautiful, limitless in wonder and possiblility. God knows God already, aparently his desire is to let us know him as well. But who knows the mind of God??? But we have the mind of Christ. (somewhere in the scriptures)

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if we allow that your position is more moderate, and therefore should be accepted, don't we also HAVE to accept the radicals, on the basis of "freedom of religion"?

My position on grace is far from moderate. I consider myself a radical believer. I believe i am being prepped for martyrdom, is that radical enough? I want Jesus to have everything in me, I am his fully, as weak and as imperfect as I am, I will persevere in his heart. Jesus Christ is my God. I am safe from all the attacks of this world, from both the religious and non. I believe Jesus died for everyone. thats everyone.

Most people in the "church" cover grace with works or "strength". They believe, in their heart even, that they are good, that they can do no wrong, that they are the chosen ones to reveal God to the sinners. They dont see that they are the sinners, that they are not good, that they do not deserve the blood of Jesus. This is a completely different "interpretation" of grace with people who claim the same God. I believe that grace covers ALL. Is that clear enough?

Jesus is about mercy, forgiveness, understanding, love. How do you suspect these things can be recognized and recieved in increasing measures if one believes already that they are righteous? You asked me how I reconcile my position with the church... Ive tried to explain that I do that with Jesus.

Do you really think that Jesus would drag someone behind their truck? These people should be exposed as false... and fairly easily for anyone who remotely understands and obeys the Gospel.

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since you treat the bible as a buffet, taking what you like and leaving the undesired parts.

You should probably re-read my previous post. Nevertheless, what undesirable parts are you speaking of? The Gospel IS the fulfillment of the law. Period. Fulfillment means complete. Jesus says in regards to the old testament... "No one puts new wine (new covenant) into old wineskins (old covenant), no, instead, new wine is poured into new wineskins and both are preserved" . try to understand please. I accept fully, BY FAITH the entire bible as the true and inspired Word of God, but also accept, as I said earlier, that it is possible the word we have may have been altered at some point. this is delicate, but still defined if you try to understand.

Bob Marley said it pretty good, and so did my last girlfriend... "Half the story has never been told, so now you see the light, stand up for your right". But, we know already that Bob died of brain cancer and he was a substance abuser, so, we should probably just discard anything he stood for. BTW, what exactly is the standard for a normal brain without defect? If being a believer means I have a defect then I can fully accept that. My work is not to save others, it is simply to lead people to the Gospel of Jesus... he is the one who saves.

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yno, if the only message was "love others", as you like to repeat about the gospels, who would disagree with you?

Dont take this the wrong way, but your kidding right? According to the Gospel, the establishment of Heaven on earth is what this is all about. In heaven, everyone loves everyone and all are under Gods love. I will repeat it again, the message is love one another with the love of Christ. This IS the message that Jesus was killed for, (and the same one many of you reject) because he preached this message amongst the zeal of the Jews, who were caught up by traditions and scriptures instead of spiritual truth. Truth is grace and grace is truth... they came together as one in Christ, as the Gospel explains.

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but when that faith allows you to infringe on the rights of anyone else, my tolerance moves to zero, and i think that sentiment is reflected in many of these posts. even more so from the few that had it crammed down their throats, and then revolted.

No argument here.

You and I are establishing a platform, but we have to be patient with each other, especially here on these forums, that is if, your like me and enjoy these types of conversations in a strange way. So far, we have a ton of writing and we are sifting through everything. the questions will become less vauge and so will the answers, but you have to bare with me. Besides the obvious you dont believe and I do, we may find other solid dividers that can be at least explored in thought. But, your sincerity is refreshing anyway, unless I have completely mis-read you.

"We didn't start the fire"

[RackJR 0]

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A religion is something that someone follows.

i don't think a definition this vague will work. a religion could be defined as my dog, under this criteria, since he gets pretty excited for walks, and typically i follow him. i would argue that a religion is a dogmatic set of beliefs, typically based upon an inflexible written document, which mandates a way of life. while i've heard the argument that atheism is a religion, i just don't buy it. we don't all read from the same book, although i'm sure i've read many of the same books as other atheists. however, no one book sums it all up for me. none of the books mandate my way of life, or the way that i will treat others. those decisions are mine to make. none of those books threaten me, or anyone else, with potential death, and eternal suffering, should i not believe what's in the book. none of them give me rights to land that is not mine. none of them allow me to kill others in the name of atheism. however, as an aside, it is interesting that your definition here would fully accept latter day saints as a religion, something another religious person went to lengths (earlier in this thread) to label a cult. slippery.

since you brought up the zeal of the jews. don't you find it ironic that the jews have been condemned for deicide, when it was all part of the mandate from god? his death was a necessary part of the plan all along.

i don't think i missed your point earlier, but i'll go ahead with this line instead of going back. i'm not sure if this

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If I told you that God is love, yet you are limited in what you know about love (or rather what you believe about it), then you would be limited in expressing, interpreting, and applying this love, in fact, you would also be very vulnerable to anothers' definition of it.

is directed at me individually, or the "you" generally, but this kind of thing is typically what gets people blood pressure up. when we don't agree on something, which we don't, and one of your responses is to tell me that i'm "limited" because i don't see it the way you do, that's condescension. although i have strong feelings about the standard intellectual level of your typical atheist vs. religious person, i am loathe to detail that, because you (individually ryno) are unknown to me. even simpletons typically understand condescension, so i'll humbly request consideration on that front.

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If homosexuality was an absolute deal breaker, why did Jesus not say it?

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. they must be put to death. Leviticus 20:13

whose words are these? jesus and god are extensions of the same being, in my understanding. while i'm not fond of quoting the bible, since i'm certain that for every quote like this one, you'll find another to contest it, you kinda stepped into this one. is this where it gets slippery? i'm not positive this is what those boys in wyoming were following, but it seems likely. did they misunderstand? is there something unclear about this citation? did i take it out of context? is there fallibility to this statement? if so, does the following not clear it up?

The law of the lord is perfect. psalm 19:7

perfection. killing homosexuals, simply because of their homosexuality. not for the content of their character, but because their sexuality is detestable to the god that supposedly made them. i'm not sure what you meant by "deal breaker". is this it?

as far as atheists finding a middle ground already occupied, i wasn't trying to say anything about the amount of truth that has been revealed about the bible, or jesus. rather, it seems that every single position on the spectrum of religious fervor has been occupied, and when the definition is that vague, it's difficult for anyone to get a handle on where people stand. slippery. getting a handle on where an individual stands? maybe, with a long dialogue. with a sect, tougher. who speaks for them? does the pope speak for you? or do you simply speak for you? who do i talk to, to dispel the idea that killing homosexuals (or abortion doctors, or muslims, or witches, or whoever) is wrong?

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When we realize we are mortal, life becomes special, more beautiful, limitless in wonder and possiblility.

no argument here. but i don't think that's where it ends for the religious. as an atheist, and a non believer in the afterlife, THIS life is special, sacred in a way i have trouble putting into words. it is this reverence for my time here, that gives me tremendous respect for the life of others, and (hopefully) the presence of mind to tread lightly on their time and space. to harm another person, to impede their journey (or end it) IS sin for me. those are moments they will never get back, memory aside. for me, there is no afterlife, and no relief in my mind that even if i harm someone, they still have the glory of god to look forward to. no belief that if i kill someone, they will still get to go to heaven. no peace from the certainty that god will grant me forgiveness for the sins i've committed against living beings in this life. THIS is the only life we get. i have to ask forgiveness from THEM. i have wronged THEM. i find it arrogant and presumptive to think that if someone injures me, god will forgive them without me forgiving them. they have not made atonement with ME, the person they've wronged. my life is sacred as well, not just theirs, and when your belief allows you to disregard my belief, we've come to an impasse.

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I believe i am being prepped for martyrdom, is that radical enough?

honestly? statements like this kinda scare me. martyrdom doesn't usually go well for those who don't share the revelation you've had. a strict definition of martyr will only include you as the sufferer, for unwillingness to renounce your faith. i think the word has evolved to mean that you take others with you. not putting words into your mouth, or saying that this is what you mean. i'm hoping it isn't.

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Nevertheless, what undesirable parts are you speaking of?

i think there are a lot of undesirable parts, the quote from leviticus above is one of them, but there are a host of others. the advocating of slavery? the submission of women? again, i don't want to fill this with quotes, but i have to repeat my feeling that either the bible is the unalterable word of god, or an interesting work of fiction. if some parts of it have been altered by the narrow minded to serve their narrow purposes, the rest can only be seen as potentially having fallen victim to the same alterations, additions, or deletions. the very fact that the parts (old and new) were written hundreds of years apart makes a serious dent, IMO, about the veracity of any statements. stories of events grow and change in a period of minutes in today's world, where information is typically readily available. back then, how could it not have grown and changed over hundreds of years? i think your larger point is that the message behind the scripture is what you are following, not always the strict letter. how did you come to that position? how can you not see the danger of those who have not arrived there, and still apply their lives according to the literal interpretation of the bible as a mandate for their behavior?

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How do you suspect these things can be recognized and received in increasing measures if one believes already that they are righteous?

i don't think i've seen, in any book i've read that discussed atheism, use of the word "righteous" to describe a state of being that comes from atheism. it's usage immediately calls to my mind religion, and the feeling of superiority i believe grows in the religious during their journey, until that sense of superiority allows them to do awful, unforgivable things to others in the name of their god. perhaps we are then in agreement here, as i feel that no more learning will actually happen, no more understanding or empathy about the life of another human (or anything else living) will occur once a person feels they have attained the status of "righteous".

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Do you really think that Jesus would drag someone behind their truck?

i can't help but refer back to leviticus. again, please help all of us understand how this can make sense. who wrote those words? is this text the true and inspired word of god, or has this been altered? how did you come to the position you hold, whichever that is? do others of faith agree with you? why, or why not? are they right, or are you? as a non believer, who do i listen to? am i right to be frightened of someone taking this to be the absolute law, reigning over any law of man, and their sacred duty to uphold? i think my youngest nephew might be gay. he's still a young boy, so i don't know really, but i suspect, as does his mother. what person's religious fervor would make sense to you, if it involved killing your wonderful nephew (niece, child, or other person in your life)? hopefully i'm correct, that for you specifically, no amount of fervor would include taking another's life for something like homosexuality. but that's just not the case for everyone who's beliefs are similar to yours, and i honestly find it frightening that this absolutely awesome kid could suffer that kind of death at the hands of "the righteous".

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Dont take this the wrong way, but your kidding right?

absolutely i'm not kidding. that isn't the only message in the bible, or in the words of jesus. sometimes it says love others. sometimes it mandates the murder of others. "love others" is not the only message jesus brought. if it was, i would agree and support anyone who wanted to preach it, not caring if they got that message from jesus or thor or mithra. if that was where the message stopped, none of us would be having this conversation. 1500 years of the dark ages would not have happened. on and on and on.

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who were caught up by traditions and scriptures instead of spiritual truth.

and in your estimation, how many followers of christianity don't fit into this quote?

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Regardless, the quest for anyone desiring to live by the spirit is to leave the foolish things of the world behind

if this is the case, do you have a stance on abortion? do the worldly things no longer concern you? or do "worldly things" mean power, money, material objects, etc.? where is the border of your concerns?

i'm gonna try to end, for this post, with this question. would you agree with the previously stated (elsewhere in this thread) that the religious of the world are not content to let others simply live, if those others do not agree with the religion? can you see the frustration that builds in the non believers to have a law enacted (take your pick), where the thrust of the law comes from a book they absolutely do not agree with, and are astounded that anyone could? as another way to say it, would you want the laws of the US to be based on the koran, a book which i doubt you agree with in the same was as the bible? would you want to be forced to live by those laws? do you understand, by your rejection of that book (or any other besides the bible) how someone like me can reject yours, and on the very same grounds?

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[RonD1120 58]

Some points for consideration:

1) What Is a Religious Cult?

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CP0200
WHAT IS A CULT?- Introduction
With such an overwhelming number of religious groups around these days, it is necessary to understand the difference between a legitimate religious group and a cult. What exactly is a cult?

WHAT IS A CULT- Definitions

There are two ways to define a cult. The first way to describe a cult is popular in the secular media. From this perspective, a cult is a religious or semi-religious sect whose members are controlled almost entirely by a single individual or by an organization.

This kind of cult is usually manipulative, demanding total commitment and loyalty from its followers. Converts are usually cut off from all former associations, including their own families. The Hare Krishnas, the Family of Love led by Moses David Berg, and Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church are some examples of this kind of a cult.

The second way to define a cult is popular in evangelical Christian circles. From this perspective, a cult is any group that deviates from the orthodox teachings of the historic Christian faith being derived from the Bible and confirmed through the ancient ecumenical creeds.

WHAT IS A CULT- Psuedo-Christian Cults
These groups deny or distort fundamental Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and salvation by grace through faith alone. Some cults that would fall into this category are the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Science, The Way International, and the Unity School of Christianity.

Most of these cults claim to be Christian, and even consider the Bible to be authoritative. But they manipulate the Scriptures to fit their own beliefs. Although they may claim to serve Jesus Christ, and may even use the same terminology orthodox Christians use, their definitions are vastly different.

WHAT IS A CULT- The Dangers of False Teachings
These groups do not lead to the Christ of the Bible, but to another Jesus and another gospel (2 Cor. 11:1-4; Gal. 1:8,9). We must therefore reject these false teachings, and “earnestly contend for the faith which was once and for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). And, of course, remember the Bible also goes on to admonish us that we must do this with gentleness, and with respect. Remember, you must present the message, but you need to recognize that it is only the Holy Spirit that changes the heart.

On the cults and answering the question "What is a cult", that’s the Bible Answer Man Perspective. I’m Hank Hanegraaff.

http://www.equip.org/perspectives/what-is-a-religious-cult

2) The Old Testament provided the Law e.g., homosexuals should be put to death. Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law with the once and for all sacrifice for sin.

3) The New Testament provides the teaching of God's Grace because of the atoning death of Jesus Christ.

4) Homosexuals can be forgiven of sin.

5) All sin is equal to God and it separates humans from Him.

6) Jesus is the bridge between humans and God because he paid the price and satisfied all legal requirements.

7) The Holy Spirit leads you to Jesus Christ and once He is accepted through the surrender of repentance the Holy Spirit resides in you.

8) Sin means missing the mark i.e., you shoot at the target but miss the bullseye.

9) Repentance means to change your mind i.e., make a 180 in your thinking.

I apologize for butting in; I hope this helps.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.