Freedom OF religion means freedom FROM religion

[RackJR 0]

not butting in. i'm half a day ahead of most of you guys. this goes slow without multiple inputs. here goes.

i just went to dictionary.com, and here's what i got:


cult  /kʌlt/ Show Spelled[kuhlt] Show IPA
–noun
1.a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3.the object of such devotion.
4.a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6.a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7.the members of such a religion or sect.
8.any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

i think #6 is the only one that bears resemblance to your post.

not belonging to any dogma, IMO, make me a little more impartial. to me, your definition (the longer one, second one) is only a cult when it violates the teachings of your church. it takes something that you believe, and changes it a little bit, and you call that a cult. this next bit is long, and i apologize, but what the heck. if people get bored, they can always stop reading. from the perspective of a worshiper of mithra, can christianity be called a cult??

Mithra, as the sun god of ancient Persia, had the following karmic similarities with Jesus:

Identical Life Experiences

(1) Mithra was born on December 25th as an offspring of the Sun. Next to the gods Ormuzd and Ahrimanes, Mithra held the highest rank among the gods of ancient Persia. He was represented as a beautiful youth and a Mediator. Reverend J. W. Lake states: "Mithras is spiritual light contending with spiritual darkness, and through his labors the kingdom of darkness shall be lit with heaven's own light; the Eternal will receive all things back into his favor, the world will be redeemed to God. The impure are to be purified, and the evil made good, through the mediation of Mithras, the reconciler of Ormuzd and Ahriman. Mithras is the Good, his name is Love. In relation to the Eternal he is the source of grace, in relation to man he is the life-giver and mediator" (Plato, Philo, and Paul, p. 15).

(2) He was considered a great traveling teacher and masters. He had twelve companions as Jesus had twelve disciples. Mithras also performed miracles.

(3) Mithra was called "the good shepherd, "the way, the truth and the light, redeemer, savior, Messiah." He was identified with both the lion and the lamb.

(4) The International Encyclopedia states: "Mithras seems to have owed his prominence to the belief that he was the source of life, and could also redeem the souls of the dead into the better world ... The ceremonies included a sort of baptism to remove sins, anointing, and a sacred meal of bread and water, while a consecrated wine, believed to possess wonderful power, played a prominent part."

(5) Chambers Encyclopedia says: "The most important of his many festivals was his birthday, celebrated on the 25th of December, the day subsequently fixed -- against all evidence -- as the birthday of Christ. The worship of Mithras early found its way into Rome, and the mysteries of Mithras, which fell in the spring equinox, were famous even among the many Roman festivals. The ceremonies observed in the initiation to these mysteries -- symbolical of the struggle between Ahriman and Ormuzd (the Good and the Evil) -- were of the most extraordinary and to a certain degree even dangerous character. Baptism and the partaking of a mystical liquid, consisting of flour and water, to be drunk with the utterance of sacred formulas, were among the inauguration acts."

(6) Prof. Franz Cumont, of the University of Ghent, writes as follows concerning the religion of Mithra and the religion of Christ: "The sectaries of the Persian god, like the Christians', purified themselves by baptism, received by a species of confirmation the power necessary to combat the spirit of evil; and expected from a Lord's supper salvation of body and soul. Like the latter, they also held Sunday sacred, and celebrated the birth of the Sun on the 25th of December.... They both preached a categorical system of ethics, regarded asceticism as meritorious and counted among their principal virtues abstinence and continence, renunciation and self-control. Their conceptions of the world and of the destiny of man were similar. They both admitted the existence of a Heaven inhabited by beatified ones, situated in the upper regions, and of a Hell, peopled by demons, situated in the bowels of the Earth. They both placed a flood at the beginning of history; they both assigned as the source of their condition, a primitive revelation; they both, finally, believed in the immortality of the soul, in a last judgment, and in a resurrection of the dead, consequent upon a final conflagration of the universe" (The Mysteries of Mithras, pp. 190, 191).

(7) Reverend Charles Biggs stated: "The disciples of Mithra formed an organized church, with a developed hierarchy. They possessed the ideas of Mediation, Atonement, and a Savior, who is human and yet divine, and not only the idea, but a doctrine of the future life. They had a Eucharist, and a Baptism, and other curious analogies might be pointed out between their system and the church of Christ (The Christian Platonists, p. 240).

(8) In the catacombs at Rome was preserved a relic of the old Mithraic worship. It was a picture of the infant Mithra seated in the lap of his virgin mother, while on their knees before him were Persian Magi adoring him and offering gifts.

(9) He was buried in a tomb and after three days he rose again. His resurrection was celebrated every year.

(10) McClintock and Strong wrote: "In modern times Christian writers have been induced to look favorably upon the assertion that some of our ecclesiastical usages (e.g., the institution of the Christmas festival) originated in the cultus of Mithraism. Some writers who refuse to accept the Christian religion as of supernatural origin, have even gone so far as to institute a close comparison with the founder of Christianity; and Dupuis and others, going even beyond this, have not hesitated to pronounce the Gospel simply a branch of Mithraism" (Art. "Mithra").

(11) Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected. His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day." The Mithra religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."

(12) The Christian Father Manes, founder of the heretical sect known as Manicheans, believed that Christ and Mithra were one. His teaching, according to Mosheim, was as follows: "Christ is that glorious intelligence which the Persians called Mithras ... His residence is in the sun" (Ecclesiastical History, 3rd century, Part 2, ch. 5).

The Vatican was built upon the grounds previously devoted to the worship of Mithra (600 B.C.).

so, does that make christianity a cult? the suggestion is probably unpalatable for most christians. does your definition of a cult matter to those people you're labeling? to me, it's one pot calling another pot black, and the debate about the validity of your god, or theirs, or the bylaws you use, or however else you choose to define yourself so you can marginalize someone else doesn't matter to me in the least. if your faith is so pure, and your relationship is so strong, and your beliefs so unshakable, what does it matter what these other people believe? aren't there already innumerable sects within christianity that believe different things? can i assume that they are similar enough to your beliefs that you won't label them a cult, but these other guys are different enough versions of your belief that you will? do you realize how infantile this name calling sounds?

moving on to your numbers 2-9

2. please give me the place in the bible it says that jesus took away the death sentence on homosexuals by dying on the cross. chapter and verse please. please don't tell me this is just that jesus died for sinners, homosexuals are sinners because they're homosexual, so jesus took away the need to kill them, but it's implied, not actually stated, the way that in no uncertain terms it is stated that they must be killed. because that would seem to me that jesus said explicitly to kill them, but then vaguely that they had been forgiven (as long as they were no longer homosexual?) and then left the implication that they no longer had to be killed open for interpretation??

3. don't know how this relates, but you can expand on what you meant here.

4. sure, homosexuals can be forgiven of sin. but clarify please. are they sinning by being homosexual, or are they sinning because we are all sinners? is homosexuality a sin? no dodging.

5. murder is the same as working on the sabbath? lords name in vain same as murder? beating a slave so badly that he's bedridden, but that after a couple days he can get up and move around?

6. jesus is the bridge? isn't he the same as god? legal requirements? is this a court of law suddenly? you can expand on this if you want.

7. no comment, dunno how it relates.

8. hmm. don't think i agree with this definition of sin.

9. i don't think i agree with this definition of repentance. just changing your mind is enough??

while working on the east coast during the summer between college years, i sold books door to door. i met a lot of moonies out there. they were really nice people. i talked to them about religion, when i could. several nights they invited me to dinner with them, instead of eating whatever i could afford at home. they didn't try to convert me, or capture me into their cult. they offered me dinner, and didn't talk about religion until i asked them about it (as is my tendency). they were nice to me because..... i don't know exactly, they didn't say. i think they were just nice people. if it was their religion, does it make a difference? their actions were those of nice people, treating others with respect and generosity.

i work in the indoor skydiving industry. a friend of mine, another tunnel instructor, is mormon. he and his wife are great, such nice people. the prejudice they have experienced, and talked to me about, is unbelievable, until i hear things like this. you don't know you're right, you can't, any more than anyone else can know. what i know is right for me. what they know is right for them. they treat people with respect. they worship their god quietly. my buddy spent 15k of his own money to go work in the phillipines. it probably included talking to people about god. he rebuilt homes. he helped feed people. their mormon mission isn't a job. he saved his ass off through high school so he could spend it helping others. do i agree with his religious beliefs, any more than yours? absolutely not. do i agree with his actions? 100%. action, not belief, makes a difference to me.

is your house really so clean that you want to throw these ridiculous stones?

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[philh 0]

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Of course you do, imagine you were on trial for murder, would you like the jury to come to their conclusion based upon their feelings or evidence?

Of course they do. Why do you think trial attorneys take acting lessons?

Can you understand simple English? i asked what one would like them to base their decision on, not what they do, in reality, base their decisions on.

[philh 0]

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Some points for consideration:

1) What Is a Religious Cult?

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CP0200
WHAT IS A CULT?- Introduction
With such an overwhelming number of religious groups around these days, it is necessary to understand the difference between a legitimate religious group and a cult. What exactly is a cult?

WHAT IS A CULT- Definitions

There are two ways to define a cult. The first way to describe a cult is popular in the secular media. From this perspective, a cult is a religious or semi-religious sect whose members are controlled almost entirely by a single individual or by an organization.

This kind of cult is usually manipulative, demanding total commitment and loyalty from its followers. Converts are usually cut off from all former associations, including their own families. The Hare Krishnas, the Family of Love led by Moses David Berg, and Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church are some examples of this kind of a cult.

The second way to define a cult is popular in evangelical Christian circles. From this perspective, a cult is any group that deviates from the orthodox teachings of the historic Christian faith being derived from the Bible and confirmed through the ancient ecumenical creeds.

WHAT IS A CULT- Psuedo-Christian Cults
These groups deny or distort fundamental Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and salvation by grace through faith alone. Some cults that would fall into this category are the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Science, The Way International, and the Unity School of Christianity.

Most of these cults claim to be Christian, and even consider the Bible to be authoritative. But they manipulate the Scriptures to fit their own beliefs. Although they may claim to serve Jesus Christ, and may even use the same terminology orthodox Christians use, their definitions are vastly different.

WHAT IS A CULT- The Dangers of False Teachings
These groups do not lead to the Christ of the Bible, but to another Jesus and another gospel (2 Cor. 11:1-4; Gal. 1:8,9). We must therefore reject these false teachings, and “earnestly contend for the faith which was once and for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). And, of course, remember the Bible also goes on to admonish us that we must do this with gentleness, and with respect. Remember, you must present the message, but you need to recognize that it is only the Holy Spirit that changes the heart.

On the cults and answering the question "What is a cult", that’s the Bible Answer Man Perspective. I’m Hank Hanegraaff.

http://www.equip.org/perspectives/what-is-a-religious-cult

2) The Old Testament provided the Law e.g., homosexuals should be put to death. Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law with the once and for all sacrifice for sin.

3) The New Testament provides the teaching of God's Grace because of the atoning death of Jesus Christ.

4) Homosexuals can be forgiven of sin.

5) All sin is equal to God and it separates humans from Him.

6) Jesus is the bridge between humans and God because he paid the price and satisfied all legal requirements.

7) The Holy Spirit leads you to Jesus Christ and once He is accepted through the surrender of repentance the Holy Spirit resides in you.

8) Sin means missing the mark i.e., you shoot at the target but miss the bullseye.

9) Repentance means to change your mind i.e., make a 180 in your thinking.

I apologize for butting in; I hope this helps.

How does jesus getting arrested and executed, fulfill the law?
given the evidence the homo sexuality is at least partially bioligcally determined how can i be a sin?
Given Jesus is god why should his death on the cross be considered any kind of sacrifice?
Why do Christians say laws they dont like in the OT dont need to be followed but laws they do like do?
All sin in not equal according to the NT. Its explicit that blapshemy against the holy spirit is the one unforgivable sin.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+3%3A29&version=NIV
how sick is it that blaspheming a spirit cannot be forgiven but murder or rape can?

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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i would argue that a religion is a dogmatic set of beliefs, typically based upon an inflexible written document, which mandates a way of life. while i've heard the argument that atheism is a religion, i just don't buy it. we don't all read from the same book, although i'm sure i've read many of the same books as other atheists. however, no one book sums it all up for me. none of the books mandate my way of life, or the way that i will treat others. those decisions are mine to make. none of those books threaten me, or anyone else, with potential death, and eternal suffering, should i not believe what's in the book. none of them give me rights to land that is not mine. none of them allow me to kill others in the name of atheism.

You do see that we are agreeing here right? At least on our definitions of religion, with the exception of a few insignificant semantics anyway.

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since you brought up the zeal of the jews. don't you find it ironic that the jews have been condemned for deicide, when it was all part of the mandate from god? his death was a necessary part of the plan all along.

Not at all Ironic in the way you describe it here (your seeing through a worldly eye). It is Ironic the way I described it though, that the zeal of the Jews is not only why they were chosen (prophesied), but was so "Inflexible" that they couldnt recognize Jesus, who was/is the God they were so zealous for.

I called your original perception wordly because it is, not out of arguments sake. I, nor any spiritually connected Christian, will accuse the Jews of deicide. They easily represent any one of us, including you. Any one of us could've have held a nail, or intertwined a thorn branch, or spit on Jesus... any one of us. The truth tells us to examine our own hearts and minds and keep a keen eye on budding hypocrisy and bitterness. This is the exact reason I cannot judge anyone... ever. I am just as guilty and I dont deserve Gods love anymore, or anyless than anyone else.

I have a saying that has served me well, "The only one who is not a hypocrite, is the one who admits he is one." Everyone is a hypocrite as everyone carries a connection of some sort with lies. We have all lied, and we will continue to lie. Sure, we have incredibly soothing ways of justifying them, but that doesnt hide the truth.

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i don't think i missed your point earlier, but i'll go ahead with this line instead of going back. i'm not sure if this

No offense, but you basically just repeated what I tried to explain in the last post. I know who and what relgions and religious people are capable of. I may not spot them immediately, but my heart is what tests and I try to follow that as best I can. Of course, all the while examining myself for hypocrisy.

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s directed at me individually, or the "you" generally, but this kind of thing is typically what gets people blood pressure up. when we don't agree on something, which we don't, and one of your responses is to tell me that i'm "limited" because i don't see it the way you do, that's condescension. although i have strong feelings about the standard intellectual level of your typical atheist vs. religious person, i am loathe to detail that, because you (individually ryno) are unknown to me. even simpletons typically understand condescension, so i'll humbly request consideration on that front.

You can call it condescending if you like, but that is not at all what it is. The truth is that you are looking for me to be condescending and that is why you feel it. Im not directing anything at you. I dont even know you. You seem sincere and you and I do not believe the same things. There is no reason to get frustrated or angry is there? I am not who you think I am, am I?

If you read ALL my posts, I make a strong effort to ensure that I am on the same level as everyone else in regards to who we are as humans. We all have life, that makes us all the same. However, I still believe in good and evil, and I cannot agree with what I cannot agree with. Im a believer man, thats our main difference, try not to allow yourself to think I am condescending just by what I believe.

I have to testify to what I know. I owe that to myself. I have to speak the truth as best I can. But, I dont have to tell everyone everything because Jesus warns me not to. For instance, I know you have good freinds, right? You tell your friends much more than you tell a forum right? Jesus says if you give your heart to someone you have to be careful, because they may turn and tear you to pieces. There are people I am fully truthful with in regards to my heart, but, in regards to the truth in the Gospel, that is what I know, and that is all I have to contribute here.

So look at it. It is what I know and the very truth of who I am that attracts the negative energies from others, but my heart, hopefully, is still being fashioned into learning how to love everyone the way Jesus did/does. Im my growth towards God, I find resistance in this world. In my quest for peace and love, I am accused almost every step of the way.

this isnt a pity party by any means, its just the truth. If I sound self righteous, Im not, Im a sinner, if I sound like a know it all, im not, Im just a guy who was enlightened to life by the promise of Jesus. I dont have an evil agenda, I only desire to share and help others understand things they may have never thought of before. Also, I am always listening for wisdom and desire to grow in extreme humbleness so that I can present this Gospel as it is intended to be presented, as it was presented to me.

Im sorry about all that, but it seems it had to be said, hopefully you can accept it impartially. Listen for the truth, dont listen for me, in otherwards.

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whose words are these? jesus and god are extensions of the same being, in my understanding. while i'm not fond of quoting the bible, since i'm certain that for every quote like this one, you'll find another to contest it, you kinda stepped into this one. is this where it gets slippery?

It appears so, for you, yes. This is where it gets VERY slippery. For me, I rest in grace and desire fully to grow away from the law, which brings death, and closer to the spirit, which brings life.

Let me be more clear for you. Respectively. I do not believe homosexuality is immoral. I do not believe it is enough to keep the love of God from entering the heart. I do not believe that an adulteress should be murdered, or a sinnner should be separated even more by my toungue. IF someone has a problem with me accepting fully the promises of grace then that is a problem with themselves. You included. If this is slippery for you, then seek greater understanding. The law given through the old testiment is a religious law. The only law that is spiritual is the law of love. Gods law is perfect in that through this law he gives not death, but life. Read romans and you may get it.

Consider this. Knowing what I know now about God (though little, very sacred) and all the pains and sufferings my path led me down as I clawed my way through all the lies to find the truth, I would go through it ALL again to find what I found. If I wasnt so human and weak, I would offer myself on national TV to be killed so that anyone else may find what I found. You may consider this condescending, but again, that is in you. I am speaking the truth.

As it is, God does not call us to do what he did, he did it for us so that we would have life to the fullest. I would not ask my brother, whom I dearly love, to do something I wouldnt want to do myself, at least I hope not. I would rather, out of my love for him do what I could to ensure the love we had grows stronger. Whatever that takes, and whatever that makes me. God is not different, and he proved it when he took the blunt of the worlds rejection of the Gospel that brings life to the living and the dead.

This sounds foolish to you im sure, but it may not, you may understand some of it, i dont know, but again, its not desgined to be condescending. The spirit has clearly revealed the power is in extreme humbleness. Jesus, who is GOD, washed the feet of his disciples to show that the leader, the King, the truth, is humbleness, and servantry inspired by love.

Im not asking you to see what I see in regards to sin (homosexuality is the topic on hand for now... there are many more as you know), you wont be able to see that without Jesus Christ. Im asking you to understand that I dont believe what you believe or what the religious church believes, and the Gospel, clearly affords me freedom from the law you and many quote.

This doesnt mean that I dont believe in sin, it just means that I know what sin is now and what its purpose truly is. No one would EVER find grace without sin. Your going to have to dig a little deeper if you want to try and understand me. But again, we have already established on this forum that revelation will not come through reason, rather reason comes through revelation. Until you have Jesus, this will not make sense... unless of course you are closer to God than even you may know.

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for me, there is no afterlife

Nor for me. There has always only been life. Is this not apparent in my posts? You feel frustrated and border boiling at times, well how to think it feels to know something and say it over and over again with as much heart and sensativity as is possible all the while people on one side calling you an idiot brain defected biggoted lunatic (paraphrasing) and on the other side people calling you the spawn of the father of lies?

Jesus is very clear in the Gospel about where life is. He says let the dead bury the dead, and do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will take care of itself ect... there is much Christ teaches about life, but the greatest thing he revealed was that life is LOVE first. If we are promised eternal life, then eternal means just that. It means we have been a part of the flow of life since the beginning. You want some intrigue? Study the origin of LIFE. Where has science gone on that journey again? They claim the truth, but know knowthing about iife... why? Because life is a miracle. Life is where the wonder and the power is. Its not some place you go when you die, that is so very clear in the Gospels man. You have read them right?

It fascinates me how so many incredibly educated people will read thousands of pages on philosophy and doctrines (how many read the divinci code?) but they wont take the time to read a 3 hour Gospel that promises eternal life to all those who obey it? Pride.

Im not saying you havent read it, just making a point.

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a strict definition of martyr will only include you as the sufferer, for unwillingness to renounce your faith. i think the word has evolved to mean that you take others with you. not putting words into your mouth, or saying that this is what you mean. i'm hoping it isn't.

I am not Islamist brother, I am a follower of Jesus. My hearts desire is to stand firm for the Gospel becasue I found a very strong love and connection with Jesus Christ... with God. My desire is to ensure people know the truth of grace. It is this desire alone that killed Jesus. I cannot walk away from this faith because I wont. Does it scare me, absolutely, but it doesnt mean it is not the truth. Life is what is important to me, not what I am or what Im doing while I am alive. you may have to dig for the difference.

I am just going with flow. The world is what is going mad and growing in hardness of heart. I have to be honest with myself. If Jesus warns that many believers will be put to death and persecuted, then what am I suppose to assume or prepare for? I will not give my love away... I will put all my faith, and all my hope in Jesus. He is the protector of my soul and the Lord of my heart.

I dont enjoy being hated or disliked, at all. But, I find that simply becasue of what I believe, that I am not as liked as I used to be in certain circles. For those who truly know me, believers or not, this is not been the case thus far, but I am aware it all is destined to change. Ironically however, as more of God is seemingly pushed out of the world, more is revealed in heaven. Again, "The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone"

Everything in Heaven loves God. God is establishing Heaven on earth, therefore, all things that do not love him is being removed, and right underneath everyones noses so to speak. Its quite remarkable that a message that was rejected is becoming the very message that will rule this earth. But again, you may not yet believe this, so it may sound very foolish and ridiculous. I cant help that.

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and the feeling of superiority i believe grows in the religious during their journey

No argument here. that is exactly what I was saying. There is no room in Christ for the self righteous. "It is not the righteous who need a doctor, but the sinners". "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". The glory of God is the absolute most sought after thing in my life. Although, I suck at it, it is a quest that must be sought through faith, trust, and love. The glory of God seems to have been designed in such a way that only a human mind can comprehend the love inspired hope that ushers the presence of God.

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if some parts of it have been altered by the narrow minded to serve their narrow purposes, the rest can only be seen as potentially having fallen victim to the same alterations, additions, or deletions

I subscribe to the possibility yes, you however seem to take this as truth. I cannot help that. You may not be able to hear the Gospel because you have seemingly blocked it from your mind. Jesus says that God has hidden the things of Heaven from the wise and learned and revealed them to the little children. Examine a child. They are closer to heaven than we are. But, they too will be subject to the harsh ways of this world and they too will have to decide if innocence is something they honor or not.

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perhaps we are then in agreement here, as i feel that no more learning will actually happen, no more understanding or empathy about the life of another human (or anything else living) will occur once a person feels they have attained the status of "righteous".

We are definitely in agreement here. this is one of Jesus' biggest lessons. There is no status of righteous, only God is righteous. Only God. Unless we can find someone we consider to be on the same level as the goodness and love of God? I certainly cant. What makes a man righteous is Gods love. Thats it. If the love is there, the fruit of that love will be as well. The fruit of love is not murder, either with the toungue, the mind, or the body. The fruit of love is well, love. This brings us back to the interpretation/revelation "spiritual semantics". I call it discernment becasue that is what it is. The fruit of love seems to be discerned by the power of love itself. That is, it takes love to discern love.

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"love others" is not the only message jesus brought. if it was, i would agree and support anyone who wanted to preach it,

I said love others with the love of Christ... and yes, this is the message you seem to deny. But you, as many do, discount this message because of the rest of the truth he brought. That this world is finished. The ways of this world are over and it is just a matter of time before it ends. However, life is not over, and it is found in spirit. Many the world over discount the Gospel because of hell. Sad really. Im sure many can testify that they have been pretty close to hell on earth and to the "hope" of eternal death. Which is believe it or not, what many of you believe, admitted or not. Jesus showed us that we not only dont have to believe that, but that it also is not the truth, and, he sealed that promise his own blood. this is a message i want all my loved ones to know with certainty, this is the message of life and what I stand for.

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and in your estimation, how many followers of christianity don't fit into this quote?

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matt 7)

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do the worldly things no longer concern you?

Not at all. However... "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

Im out of time for now... let me come back to the last comment please.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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f this is the case, do you have a stance on abortion?

I think it should be avoided, but I have myself been involved in one. But, to be honest, it is an argument of this world.

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do the worldly things no longer concern you? or do "worldly things" mean power, money, material objects, etc.? where is the border of your concerns?

My quest is to not be concerned about anything but growing closer to Jesus.

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i'm gonna try to end, for this post, with this question. would you agree with the previously stated (elsewhere in this thread) that the religious of the world are not content to let others simply live, if those others do not agree with the religion? can you see the frustration that builds in the non believers to have a law enacted (take your pick), where the thrust of the law comes from a book they absolutely do not agree with, and are astounded that anyone could? as another way to say it, would you want the laws of the US to be based on the koran, a book which i doubt you agree with in the same was as the bible? would you want to be forced to live by those laws? do you understand, by your rejection of that book (or any other besides the bible) how someone like me can reject yours, and on the very same grounds?

Matt 13:22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.

You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, butsee to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. 39She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet listening to what he said. 40But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, "Lord, don't you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!"
41"Martha, Martha," the Lord answered, "you are worried and upset about many things, 42but only one thing is needed.[f] Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her."

In regards to Ron. That is who you are speaking of yes? I dont have to know anything about him. He loves Jesus. For me this is more than enough. Not only that, believe it or not, he loves many of you on this forum as well. We all have things in our personalities ect... that are not so desirable for other personalities, but it is the heart that matters most. I for one am glad I am becoming a part of this forum, but, I also want to improve my skydiving skills as well, and i do see it probable jumping with a few of you. I will always seek to be a friend to everyone, but I am still a believer.

this life is about letting go... letting go of everything and living fully with the love of God. To me anyway. I can understand your frustration as I am not giving you the answers you have in your head (seemingly), but this is what I believe, and as I said earlier, the Gospel more than affords me the freedom to do so.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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how sick is it that blaspheming a spirit cannot be forgiven but murder or rape can?

this is the prophesy of the complete destruction of evil for the new way of the spirit. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when someone knows the Holy Spirit and speaks against him. Not when someone doesnt know him. This is clear in the Gospel. It is important you get this. Sorry to butt in.

"We didn't start the fire"

[philh 0]

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how sick is it that blaspheming a spirit cannot be forgiven but murder or rape can?

this is the prophesy of the complete destruction of evil for the new way of the spirit. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when someone knows the Holy Spirit and speaks against him. Not when someone doesnt know him. This is clear in the Gospel. It is important you get this. Sorry to butt in.

How is it clear? Why should speaking against something be worse than murder, torture or rape?

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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How is it clear? Why should speaking against something be worse than murder, torture or rape?

Because you dont seem to be a believer? If you were a believer you would either believe in God and love him, or believe in God and hate him. All that which does not love God is being removed from the revelation of life. The future is full of light, and darkness has served its purpose. There is something awesome going on in the balance... sort of like life is taking one deep breath and changing everything for the better. Jesus is the exhale.

"We didn't start the fire"

[quade 3]

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Jesus is the exhale.

Metaphor doesn't seem to be your friend.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[RonD1120 58]

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not butting in. i'm half a day ahead of most of you guys. this goes slow without multiple inputs. here goes.

i just went to dictionary.com, and here's what i got:


cult  /kʌlt/ Show Spelled[kuhlt] Show IPA
–noun
1.a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3.the object of such devotion.
4.a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6.a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7.the members of such a religion or sect.
8.any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

i think #6 is the only one that bears resemblance to your post.

not belonging to any dogma, IMO, make me a little more impartial. to me, your definition (the longer one, second one) is only a cult when it violates the teachings of your church. it takes something that you believe, and changes it a little bit, and you call that a cult. this next bit is long, and i apologize, but what the heck. if people get bored, they can always stop reading. from the perspective of a worshiper of mithra, can christianity be called a cult??

I only have time to address one issue at this time. I will be occupied for a few days and without the internet, unless I can find a hot spot.

As an Evangelical Christian, I define a cult from that perspective. Hank Hannegraaf is one of the most respected theologians that I know. His definitions are the most accurate and comprehensive I have seen.

You ask thoughtful questions and I want to give you the time you deserve. I will get back to you later on the other points. Actually, rynodigsmusic is good on this subject. Maybe he will have time to jump in while I am absent.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

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Of course you do, imagine you were on trial for murder, would you like the jury to come to their conclusion based upon their feelings or evidence?

Of course they do. Why do you think trial attorneys take acting lessons?

Can you understand simple English? i asked what one would like them to base their decision on, not what they do, in reality, base their decisions on.

It is what it is. You just have to make it work.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 58]

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Some points for consideration:

1) What Is a Religious Cult?

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CP0200
WHAT IS A CULT?- Introduction
With such an overwhelming number of religious groups around these days, it is necessary to understand the difference between a legitimate religious group and a cult. What exactly is a cult?

WHAT IS A CULT- Definitions

There are two ways to define a cult. The first way to describe a cult is popular in the secular media. From this perspective, a cult is a religious or semi-religious sect whose members are controlled almost entirely by a single individual or by an organization.

This kind of cult is usually manipulative, demanding total commitment and loyalty from its followers. Converts are usually cut off from all former associations, including their own families. The Hare Krishnas, the Family of Love led by Moses David Berg, and Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church are some examples of this kind of a cult.

The second way to define a cult is popular in evangelical Christian circles. From this perspective, a cult is any group that deviates from the orthodox teachings of the historic Christian faith being derived from the Bible and confirmed through the ancient ecumenical creeds.

WHAT IS A CULT- Psuedo-Christian Cults
These groups deny or distort fundamental Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and salvation by grace through faith alone. Some cults that would fall into this category are the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Science, The Way International, and the Unity School of Christianity.

Most of these cults claim to be Christian, and even consider the Bible to be authoritative. But they manipulate the Scriptures to fit their own beliefs. Although they may claim to serve Jesus Christ, and may even use the same terminology orthodox Christians use, their definitions are vastly different.

WHAT IS A CULT- The Dangers of False Teachings
These groups do not lead to the Christ of the Bible, but to another Jesus and another gospel (2 Cor. 11:1-4; Gal. 1:8,9). We must therefore reject these false teachings, and “earnestly contend for the faith which was once and for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). And, of course, remember the Bible also goes on to admonish us that we must do this with gentleness, and with respect. Remember, you must present the message, but you need to recognize that it is only the Holy Spirit that changes the heart.

On the cults and answering the question "What is a cult", that’s the Bible Answer Man Perspective. I’m Hank Hanegraaff.

http://www.equip.org/perspectives/what-is-a-religious-cult

2) The Old Testament provided the Law e.g., homosexuals should be put to death. Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law with the once and for all sacrifice for sin.

3) The New Testament provides the teaching of God's Grace because of the atoning death of Jesus Christ.

4) Homosexuals can be forgiven of sin.

5) All sin is equal to God and it separates humans from Him.

6) Jesus is the bridge between humans and God because he paid the price and satisfied all legal requirements.

7) The Holy Spirit leads you to Jesus Christ and once He is accepted through the surrender of repentance the Holy Spirit resides in you.

8) Sin means missing the mark i.e., you shoot at the target but miss the bullseye.

9) Repentance means to change your mind i.e., make a 180 in your thinking.

I apologize for butting in; I hope this helps.

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How does jesus getting arrested and executed, fulfill the law?

He was all man and all God. Therefore, He was able to be the PERFECT blood sacrifice for all sin for all time.

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given the evidence the homo sexuality is at least partially bioligcally determined how can i be a sin?

The sin is lust of the flesh which takes the worship from the Creator and places it on the creation. Homosexuality is an abomination because it is unnatural.

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Given Jesus is god why should his death on the cross be considered any kind of sacrifice?

See above.

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Why do Christians say laws they dont like in the OT dont need to be followed but laws they do like do?
All sin in not equal according to the NT. Its explicit that blapshemy against the holy spirit is the one unforgivable sin.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+3%3A29&version=NIV
how sick is it that blaspheming a spirit cannot be forgiven but murder or rape can?

Sin is not achieving the best that your Father in heaven has for you.

I have a different take on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit than rynodigsmusic. The Holy Spirit leads you to Christ and once accepted dwells within the believer to strengthen the relationship. If you deny the Holy Spirit i.e., blaspheme, you cannot enter into relationship with your heavenly Father. Without that relationship you are condemned to spiritual death without hope. Without the Holy Spirit you cannot be pardoned.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kallend 1,623]

You are right, atheists ARE Christians, mutatis mutandis.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[philh 0]

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Some points for consideration:

1) What Is a Religious Cult?

Quote

CP0200
WHAT IS A CULT?- Introduction
With such an overwhelming number of religious groups around these days, it is necessary to understand the difference between a legitimate religious group and a cult. What exactly is a cult?

WHAT IS A CULT- Definitions

There are two ways to define a cult. The first way to describe a cult is popular in the secular media. From this perspective, a cult is a religious or semi-religious sect whose members are controlled almost entirely by a single individual or by an organization.

This kind of cult is usually manipulative, demanding total commitment and loyalty from its followers. Converts are usually cut off from all former associations, including their own families. The Hare Krishnas, the Family of Love led by Moses David Berg, and Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church are some examples of this kind of a cult.

The second way to define a cult is popular in evangelical Christian circles. From this perspective, a cult is any group that deviates from the orthodox teachings of the historic Christian faith being derived from the Bible and confirmed through the ancient ecumenical creeds.

WHAT IS A CULT- Psuedo-Christian Cults
These groups deny or distort fundamental Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and salvation by grace through faith alone. Some cults that would fall into this category are the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Science, The Way International, and the Unity School of Christianity.

Most of these cults claim to be Christian, and even consider the Bible to be authoritative. But they manipulate the Scriptures to fit their own beliefs. Although they may claim to serve Jesus Christ, and may even use the same terminology orthodox Christians use, their definitions are vastly different.

WHAT IS A CULT- The Dangers of False Teachings
These groups do not lead to the Christ of the Bible, but to another Jesus and another gospel (2 Cor. 11:1-4; Gal. 1:8,9). We must therefore reject these false teachings, and “earnestly contend for the faith which was once and for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). And, of course, remember the Bible also goes on to admonish us that we must do this with gentleness, and with respect. Remember, you must present the message, but you need to recognize that it is only the Holy Spirit that changes the heart.

On the cults and answering the question "What is a cult", that’s the Bible Answer Man Perspective. I’m Hank Hanegraaff.

http://www.equip.org/perspectives/what-is-a-religious-cult

2) The Old Testament provided the Law e.g., homosexuals should be put to death. Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law with the once and for all sacrifice for sin.

3) The New Testament provides the teaching of God's Grace because of the atoning death of Jesus Christ.

4) Homosexuals can be forgiven of sin.

5) All sin is equal to God and it separates humans from Him.

6) Jesus is the bridge between humans and God because he paid the price and satisfied all legal requirements.

7) The Holy Spirit leads you to Jesus Christ and once He is accepted through the surrender of repentance the Holy Spirit resides in you.

8) Sin means missing the mark i.e., you shoot at the target but miss the bullseye.

9) Repentance means to change your mind i.e., make a 180 in your thinking.

I apologize for butting in; I hope this helps.

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How does jesus getting arrested and executed, fulfill the law?

He was all man and all God. Therefore, He was able to be the PERFECT blood sacrifice for all sin for all time.

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given the evidence the homo sexuality is at least partially bioligcally determined how can i be a sin?

The sin is lust of the flesh which takes the worship from the Creator and places it on the creation. Homosexuality is an abomination because it is unnatural.

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Given Jesus is god why should his death on the cross be considered any kind of sacrifice?

See above.

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Why do Christians say laws they dont like in the OT dont need to be followed but laws they do like do?
All sin in not equal according to the NT. Its explicit that blapshemy against the holy spirit is the one unforgivable sin.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+3%3A29&version=NIV
how sick is it that blaspheming a spirit cannot be forgiven but murder or rape can?

Sin is not achieving the best that your Father in heaven has for you.

I have a different take on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit than rynodigsmusic. The Holy Spirit leads you to Christ and once accepted dwells within the believer to strengthen the relationship. If you deny the Holy Spirit i.e., blaspheme, you cannot enter into relationship with your heavenly Father. Without that relationship you are condemned to spiritual death without hope. Without the Holy Spirit you cannot be pardoned.

of course these are your own definiton, where in the bible does it give this definition?

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Metaphor doesn't seem to be your friend.

I dont know about the metaphor, but Jesus is my friend and your friend as well, but you continue to hate him for some reason? Or should I use the word strongly dislike instead? Time will tell if what is being said is true or not, but, from what I have seen, more people than not who have turned to Christ have found something they loved more than what they "left" behind.

There are complete perception changes and therefore the world they knew becomes even better, yet, nothing on the outside (in the world and on the earth) has changed much.

Not only that. I have seen and experienced exhibitions of the spirits power, this kind of love is sought after more than most are ever willing to admit. It will soften the hardest of hearts and even in a scientific view, the amount of emotional fulfillment alone is enough for life to have seen it as a very good thing to lifes existance.

Since we know life changes the bodies of that which it inhabits to adapt for survival (I dont believe survival is the sole purpose, but scientists do) why is it so far off to believe that life would also make radical changes in the human mind (our best survival tool) to adapt to the ever desirable and inevitiable peaceful earth?

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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How is it clear? Why should speaking against something be worse than murder, torture or rape?

(mark 14)It is one of the Twelve," he replied, "one who dips bread into the bowl with me. 21The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

This is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This is an example of what it means to betray Jesus.

Luke 22 Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."

This is denial out of fear. Jesus built his church on Peters heart. You can deny Jesus with words, but his love is much more pure than ours. He knows those who are his and those who are not.

If ever one loved Jesus, he loved them back. If ever one loved God, he loved them back... thats what this is all about. There are those who love God but do not know Jesus... yet.

"We didn't start the fire"

[jakee 1,254]

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I dont know about the metaphor, but Jesus is my friend and your friend as well, but you continue to hate him for some reason? Or should I use the word strongly dislike instead?

Where do you get that from?

It's ridiculous charicatures like this that make me so sure that you, and most others like you, don't even attempt to actually listen to what any non-fundamentalists actually say.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RackJR 0]

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You do see that we are agreeing here right? At least on our definitions of religion, with the exception of a few insignificant semantics anyway.

i haven't really noticed a lot of agreement, so it seemed interesting that you would say we agree on our definition of religion. i'll ask again, because i'm a little confused. i think the bible does mandate/include these things, i'll sum up--way of life, way to treat others, threaten death & eternal suffering, rights to land, and killing in the name of god. are you saying that it's your opinion that the bible does not contain these things? i feel atheist books do not contain these things. is it your contention that they do?

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They easily represent any one of us, including you. Any one of us could've have held a nail, or intertwined a thorn branch, or spit on Jesus... any one of us.

i'm guessing most jews would consider this an enlightened (and uncommon) POV for a christian. unfortunately, i don't think a majority of christians would echo this sentiment. i think to this day, jews are vilified for this ancient accusation.

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You can call it condescending if you like, but that is not at all what it is. The truth is that you are looking for me to be condescending and that is why you feel it.

well, again, i think if you actually are condescending, i'm gonna say i think so. to say someone is limited because they don't agree with your beliefs is, IMO, condescending. while it's not a big thing, and something i don't see you doing much in your previous posts, i think it's typical for the religious person. to me it is the subtle glimpse of the righteousness of the religious, and a sometimes frustrating stance. by the nature of your belief, all those who don't agree with you are "limited", and any real or meaningful points discussed with anyone who does not agree can be dismissed (if needs be) on the premise that "you haven't had the enlightenment that i've had". while i will agree that the experiences of your life that have led you to the place you currently occupy are unknown to me, i cannot agree that somehow the difference between two people who actually have no idea what's right or wrong in the world for anyone other than themselves will dictate that one is "limited" and the other "enlightened". i'd love to move on. please just see this as a request that you do not assume that your position is unlimited, or that mine is limited, simply on the basis of the fact that it's yours. i have my prejudices as well, but to label someone such is to dismiss what they have to say.

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It appears so, for you, yes. This is where it gets VERY slippery. For me, I rest in grace and desire fully to grow away from the law, which brings death, and closer to the spirit, which brings life.

it isn't slippery for me in the least. the bible says very clearly what it means. it's telling people to kill homosexuals for no other reason than because they're homosexual. period. it isn't slippery for a lot of christians, either. it is only slippery for those who have thankfully decided that homosexuality isn't worthy of a death sentence, and have to reconcile that feeling with the absolute clarity of the bible on this point. it becomes slippery when a caring, compassionate person who believes in god, and wants to believe in the bible, reads this passage, doesn't agree that homosexuals need to be murdered but, that doesn't fit with the bible being the infallible word of god, but they feel a duty to obey the word of god, and then try to make this mix come together somehow.

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Let me be more clear for you. Respectively. I do not believe homosexuality is immoral. I do not believe it is enough to keep the love of God from entering the heart. I do not believe that an adulteress should be murdered, or a sinnner should be separated even more by my toungue. IF someone has a problem with me accepting fully the promises of grace then that is a problem with themselves. You included. If this is slippery for you, then seek greater understanding. The law given through the old testiment is a religious law. The only law that is spiritual is the law of love. Gods law is perfect in that through this law he gives not death, but life. Read romans and you may get it.

i think you have answered the question of, how did you come to this position? it leaves out the answering of several other questions. whose words are they? what you answered was that, from your perspective, it appears to me that they are the words of jesus. is it different for you? i mean, are you saying that it actually wasn't jesus who said this? you're also telling me that if i don't see it the way you do, i need to seek greater understanding. would you agree that there are many christians who feel that i understand it perfectly, because they also understand it perfectly, because in a book that makes regular work out of being vague, this passage is remarkably clear? what you're really saying is that since this passage is very clear and unambiguous, my inability to understand your point of view is that i don't understand the revelation you've had, but if i had then your dismissal of this perfectly clear law would make more sense? i'm sorry but it seems to me that you're attempting to move around an inability to explain this inconsistency by telling me that "you just don't understand". that's what i admitted in the first place. if it's a deeply personal feeling that you really can't convey, say that. but please don't try to lay it off on me, that i haven't read enough of this or that, or i lack some ability, i'm "limited" in some way. i'm asking for your perspective on things that seem inconsistent to me. responding by telling me to seek more knowledge... welll, i'm here, now, seeking it. tell me, without dancing around it.

i also have to point out that this is exactly what i meant about taking the bible as a buffet. you have chosen to

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rest in grace and desire fully to grow away from the law, which brings death, and closer to the spirit, which brings life.

you are choosing to not obey the unambiguous law stated in leviticus. you have left that part behind because it is undesirable.

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Im not asking you to see what I see in regards to sin (homosexuality is the topic on hand for now... there are many more as you know), you wont be able to see that without Jesus Christ. Im asking you to understand that I dont believe what you believe or what the religious church believes, and the Gospel, clearly affords me freedom from the law you and many quote.

if you don't see it as sin, i think that's great. i have actually never seen it as sin. if you can teach others who believe in god/jesus/bible that it's not sin, i'd be all for it. i honestly don't feel, at least on the subject of homosexuality, that i need to read romans, or seek greater understanding. if it took reading those for you to get there, i'm glad you did. it seems ironic that the very book that told you homosexuals need to be murdered is where you place your credit for the enlightenment that they don't.

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Im not asking you to see what I see in regards to sin (homosexuality is the topic on hand for now... there are many more as you know), you wont be able to see that without Jesus Christ. Im asking you to understand that I dont believe what you believe or what the religious church believes, and the Gospel, clearly affords me freedom from the law you and many quote.

again, i'm asking you to explain that freedom. explain it in a way that makes sense of what seems like inconsistent information. explain it in a way that i might understand your position. explain it in a way that it might make sense to others who still hold the position that homosexuals need to be killed because they are homosexual. HOW did you get to that feeling of freedom? what logic/reasoning/math/science/philosophy/fairy tale/combination did you discover that helped you reach your current position? i'm seriously hoping you're not going to revert to something so vague as "the gospels" again. even if it's that, can you be just a little more specific about what exactly you read that freed you from the constraints of a life bound to the literal word of gods law?

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[RackJR 0]

ryno, not frustrated, just confused. i think i can see some similarity between your biblical references, and potential answers for a couple of the questions i asked. otherwise, i'm not sure what you're responding to. i think i did reference ron somewhere, but only as the guy who went to lengths to proclaim that some religions were cults.
great that the gospel gives you freedom. i'm just asking your opinion on a previously discussed topic. are you saying the gospel gives you freedom to avoid answering my questions? that's fine if it does, i'll stop asking.

Say what you mean. Do what you say.

[philh 0]

Nowhere here is a clear definition of blasphemy, so anything else is just your supposition.

[maadmax 0]

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Nowhere here is a clear definition of blasphemy, so anything else is just your supposition.

blasphemy: profane or mocking speech, writing or action concerning God or anything related to God, contempt of God.

blasphemy of the Holy Spirit : contempt (rejection) of the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Ministry of the Holy Spirit - Reveals the work and person of Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1:13)

Rejection of the work and person of Christ is the only unforgivable sin.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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. are you saying that it's your opinion that the bible does not contain these things? i feel atheist books do not contain these things. is it your contention that they do?

The Bible does contain those things. The satanic bible is all about the self (can be and has been used as a source for atheism). The golden rule is similar to do want you want as long as it doesnt hurt anyone. The problem is you will never really know if something you did or didnt do hurt someone or not. Self Indulgence is not the way, self control is. This is a truth we would rather not accept, and why it is a life long quest for me at least. Jesus teaches self control as a virtue of his spirit. I am still learning this. I cant speak for everyone. Was that really the question your asking though? You should have already known that I knew those things were found in the the Bible. im not interested at all in argumetative debates, so Ill keep my eye open for them if you dont mind. respectively.

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'm guessing most jews would consider this an enlightened (and uncommon) POV for a christian. unfortunately, i don't think a majority of christians would echo this sentiment. i think to this day, jews are vilified for this ancient accusation.

They are not reading their bibles then, nor are they in tune with the spirit. If they had been, they would see they represent the salvation that the Jewish people held so sacred and true in thier faith for the Lord. They represent the faith that salvation came through...

(Romans 11)25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

(John 2) 21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (matt6)

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to say someone is limited because they don't agree with your beliefs is, IMO, condescending.

For the record the quote was... "It is not mans interpretations of scriptures. It is mans ability/inability to understand, recieve, and express love. If I told you that God is love, yet you are limited in what you know about love (or rather what you believe about it), then you would be limited in expressing, interpreting, and applying this love, in fact, you would also be very vulnerable to anothers' definition of it. Which is and has been happening. "

The "If" made that statement a hypothetical way to express a truth that love can often be misinterpreted and therefore can be expressed in ways that are contrary to its desires. Obviously killing people and forcing them to believe something they dont is not a method the Holy Spirit would use. Therefore, you see a mis-interpretation of the expression (and revelatiion) of love. That was my point.

I sincerely did not mean to imply I was better than you, or that you were limited in recieving love. I can see how it could have been taken that way, but that was not my intention, I hope you believe me. That did sound a little wierd when I went back and re-read it, and it has been throwing me off in our discussion a bit. Again, that was not my intention at all, sorry bout that.

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i think it's typical for the religious person. to me it is the subtle glimpse of the righteousness of the religious, and a sometimes frustrating stance

Its not an easy thing sometime to try and separate yourself from the religious while defending yourself against the "others" (I guess your atheist?) I fight like hell to keep conciet away from my heart. Im sorry you see it. I told you that is something I try to keep a keen eye on. I did not do anything good to deserve Jesus. I was just like many of you, and still am in many ways.

I think we should be able to establish ourselves as different though. That alone sometimes is enough for some people to be offended and begin accusing the other of being condescending isnt it? So, we should be okay with accepting each other and continuing the discussion without accusations, plus, I dont think any of us want to argue. This is not a quarrel, it is a discussion. A godly one at that. So we're truce in this department the way I see it anyway I hope you feel the same.

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and any real or meaningful points discussed with anyone who does not agree can be dismissed (if needs be) on the premise that "you haven't had the enlightenment that i've had"

Yes and No. I do believe if you havent repented of your sin and accepted Jesus as your savior that you have not found the enlightenment that brings, nor will you have the spirit to understand many of his revelations. But, I also believe...

(Luke 13)So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?'
8" 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.' "

God is always at work. Paul (Saul) was sent to destroy Christianity. He killed Christian women and children, husbands and wives, he hated Christianity. He was a ruthless Pharisee without mercy. Jesus used this man to be one of his greatest testimonies. This is the Gospels power. It softens the hardest of hearts and enlightens the most boastful of men. It is the light. Paul of course was considered the light to the gentiles as you remember. He wrote the book of Romans, and it is full of spiritual bread that has fed and continues to feed believers. Some read it and they see nothing. Others hear the Word of God. That is at least interesting to me to say the least.

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i cannot agree that somehow the difference between two people who actually have no idea what's right or wrong in the world for anyone other than themselves will dictate that one is "limited" and the other "enlightened"

Heres that slippery thing you wanted to avoid. I follow Jesus. i believe he is right. i fully understand where you can claim neither of us do though. I still wont claim you are limited or that I am more enlightened than you. that is pretty foolish to me. I will however say that I have found light in Jesus and if you have not, then in that sense you have not been enlightened by his spirit. I can also see where that may sound condescending, but again, I guess we see a definite line in our discussion. I cant claim I havent recieved the light of Jesus because one, I experienced just that, and two Jesus tells me not only that he is there, but that he will never leave. So, I have Jesus, it seems you dont? Is that fair to say?

It doesnt however mean that you dont posess the qualities of his heart. It doesnt mean you cant be forgiving, truthful, loving, caring, kind ect.. it just means that you dont believe in God, or wont? So, you like others seem to long to be good people (a very small and subtle assumption, respectively) but want to leave the ultimate expression of goodness we have thus far out of that. The Father of Love.

Also, I have continuously stated over and over again that I am always listening for wisdom....

(Luke 7)4The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children."

Not only that. I have used plenty from these forums from things and ways I have not thought of before. So, I am listening, and using what is true. So, no offense, but I dont really like it much when you seem to accuse me of "dissmissing what they have to say"

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by the nature of your belief, all those who don't agree with you are "limited"

The nature of my belief is that they are lost not limited. That alone might inspire you to believe I think your limited, but people have accused me also of being limited, so we're fairly even here in regards to who we represent I think. But, I still dont think it fair to accuse me of dissmissing your thoughts and sincere effort though because the Gospel which found me when I was lost is the one I am testifying for. It is for the lost so Im sorry if that sounds like I am calling you limited. Clearly your not. Your very smart and very sincere, so your right, from this "line" I think we should move on.

If I feel sympathy or empathy for/with someone does that mean I am prejudice? If it does, there have been a few comments from others on here that would also fit that description, so, again, with regard to the sides we "represent" (this side thing is sort of childish, but you and I admit it is there none the less) We could also assume predjudice is out as well, as usually its only response is often hollow argument.

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have to reconcile that feeling with the absolute clarity of the bible on this point.

Im sorry you have to do that. Homosexuality is prevolent. Probably there are more in the closet than not. It is not the saving grace of my heart, if it is for others then they can dwell on the worldly and religious argument with all the others who cant see that life is more than just fleshly desires. Its even more than just getting what you want. I dont care about sexual orientation. I do however care if it is keeping people from God because if homosexuality is a sin, then it is in there with adultery, murder, rape, thievery, lying... shall I go on? Who here is NOT guilty of these things? Now do you see?

It is not whether or not your a sinner. You are a sinner, I am a sinner, all preachers and apostles who ever lived were sinners. Sinners. That is not what brings people to God. However, through repentance and acceptance of the Holy Spirit you find a new desire of your heart. A desire to please God as best you possibly can. See, all we can give God is our weakness. Thats it. From there the work of the spirit is to lead one to ALL righteousness and all truth. to bring us out of the "myoptic sinful pattern" (maadmaxs quote) and show us a life that is full of goodness, righteousness, perseverance, and truth.

Me trying to explain grace to someone who will not repent is definitely going to be a line in our dialogue. I have taken that step of humbleness and there is light on the otherside. I dont know if you have or not but it does make a major difference in how you percieve sin. It becomes a conflict. Something you truly dont want to do but do anyway. However, as we continue to persevere with an eternally forgiving grace, we see the spirit in us was definitely not given in vain. It produces the fruit of love, not fear. It showers with understanding not contempt. Sin brings us closer to God. Those who have the Holy Spirit can discern just what that means with no problem. Those without will claim the way to God is to sin as much as you can. I will let truth sort this one out for whoever reads this. But, Paul describes this conflict in Romans 7...

I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

(Galatians)16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

(1 john)1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.

These are pleas for righteousness because it brings life, but they are filled with mercy, grace, and understanding. Where is the line? What does the blood of Jesus not cover? The point is that there is life in the Righteousness of God and that is only found through faith, trust, and love. Perseverance is another thing Jesus preaches...

21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved

So, at what point in a saved mans life does grace not become enough if it is a call to persevere in eternal mercy and love? When should I say, wait a minute, you have gone too far now? Did Jesus ever turn ONE person (besides the one doomed to destruction) away? Did he turn ONE sinner away?... lets see...

1Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." 23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." 25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. 26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Here the disciples thought for sure this woman was not worthy of Jesus, and Jesus ended up prasing this woman for her faith. Love is found through faith, and coincidentally, faith is often found through love. Maadmax tried to explain that earlier, as did I a couple of years ago. So far the consensus seems to be its "poppycock" or "mumbo jumbo". It takes faith to love is not a true statement? I disagree.

Im giving you scripture because you asked me NOT to be vague remember? I hope you at least read it.

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what you're really saying is that since this passage is very clear and unambiguous, my inability to understand your point of view is that i don't understand the revelation you've had, but if i had then your dismissal of this perfectly clear law would make more sense?

Again, the seek greater understanding came after me saying "if this is not clear for you seek greater understanding". Im assuming its still not clear? Then we have found another divider in our differences it seems. Because this was my quote from the last post and is still how I feel about...

"The law given through the old testiment is a religious law. The only law that is spiritual is the law of love. Gods law is perfect in that through this law he gives not death, but life."

The Holy Spirit is a spirit of discernment. It discerns all truth... He says the law has been fulfilled and grace is found through faith. He is called the Righteous teacher. If the Holy Spirit doesnt indwell your soul then you will not be able to understand and discern the spirtual things of God in Christ.

So yes, everything would make more sense to you if you had the spirit. I know this is not what you wanted to hear, or, "judging" by your post, it seems you knew I would say that anyway. Our discussion would get shorter if we both would make stronger attempts at less assumption.

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it becomes slippery when a caring, compassionate person who believes in god, and wants to believe in the bible, reads this passage, doesn't agree that homosexuals need to be murdered but, that doesn't fit with the bible being the infallible word of god, but they feel a duty to obey the word of god, and then try to make this mix come together somehow.

yes it does. The entire Bible can become quite slippery if you do not read it in context with the Holy Spirit... the author. The "mix" comes together in the Gospel with this...

(Matt 22) 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Thought id put in bold since you seemed to have confronted me on this one before. respectively.

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i'm sorry but it seems to me that you're attempting to move around an inability to explain this inconsistency by telling me that "you just don't understand". that's what i admitted in the first place. if it's a deeply personal feeling that you really can't convey, say that. but please don't try to lay it off on me, that i haven't read enough of this or that, or i lack some ability, i'm "limited" in some way. i'm asking for your perspective on things that seem inconsistent to me. responding by telling me to seek more knowledge... welll, i'm here, now, seeking it. tell me, without dancing around it.

I really have tried to tell you. Of course it is deep and personal. It is something I am willing to stand up for is it not? I will not turn homosexuals, adulters, thieves, murders, anyone away who wants a relationship with God in Jesus Christ. If someone else feels they have the right to do so in the name of Jesus then you should focus this direction at them. Again, this, abortion, sex before marriage... ect.. all these are worldly conflicts that only lead to quarreling. I am not interested in quarreling but in presenting the grace of Jesus.

Take it this way though. If I say I have a problem with homosexuality, when I do not, that makes me a hypocrite. If I accept that homosexuality has been used to separate people from God then I have to accept a stance on it dont I? My stance is with grace. Jesus looks past the flesh. God "scans the hearts and minds". He doesnt wait until you are perfect before he loves you. the love is always there, it just has to be believed and let in.

If I had a church I lead, I would let anyone in. anyone. If your gay and have a spouse, I dont care. If you are having trouble with drugs and alcohol, I dont care. If you are abusive and not trying to change, I dont care. Jesus died for the sin of the entire world, and we are sin by nature. Refer to pauls words above, where he attempts to personify sin living in us for those who want to listen. Is this still slippery for you? If it is, what would you like me to say? I think all homosexuals should be murdered? I think we should be beyond this by now, but you may not have heard what I said and therefore it would be just a bunch of rambling words.

Funny too though. Jesus over and over said he brings eternal life and people kept asking him what he meant instead of listening to what he said. Not saying you are not listening, just making a point.

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ou are choosing to not obey the unambiguous law stated in leviticus. you have left that part behind because it is undesirable.

Not undesirable. Fulfilled. The law is fulfilled and grace is the new law. Did you read the parable of the wine and the wineskins? Im really not trying to blow you off, at least I dont think I am, but all this law vs spirit is the back bone of the entire new testament. It is the reason Christ came, to establish a new covenant. If you dont get this one little thing, then it too is also going to be a line in our dialouge. respectively.

So far you have a hard time separating the spirit from religion (law), sin from grace, and the Word from the letters. These are all revelations of the spirit. I accepted the Holy Spirit based on what I read in the Gospel. I obeyed the message and repented and accepted Christ as truth. This is a step I took. It was the longest most comforted step I ever took. It is taking God at his word. It is taking the first step of faith...

"The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."

Jesus likens faith to a mustard seed in the other Gospels as well. The point is that faith grows from the smallest of all things. Me walking into a little room in my apartment kneeling before God in repentance and asking for the Holy Spirit was my first solid step I believe. Although, in hinesight it seems there was always work going on to get me to that point. Spiritual work that I may not have even seen happening and some that I did see. yOu get the idea.

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if you don't see it as sin, i think that's great. i have actually never seen it as sin. if you can teach others who believe in god/jesus/bible that it's not sin, i'd be all for it

I dont no. But it doesnt mean it is not being used to keep people from God. I accept it as what it is, a sexual orientation... a desire of the flesh, or a sincere love for another of the same sex. Jesus would have been considered gay in our world today. He washed the feet of the disciples. he loved men... and women... and children... He loved with a love that goes way beyond sex.. the measure I seek. So is a homosexual someone who has sex with another of the same sex or is it someone who is attracted to another member of the same sex... or... is it someone who loves another of the same sex? And, which one do you think is more desirable for the spirit? Sex is not needed to establish an eternal loving bond with someone... Nevertheless. Jesus says...

3The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[a] and they are life. john 6

Given that teaching, what am I to accept? That homosexuality is an eternal sin, or that there is a complete other world that Jesus introduced us to and it has nothing at all to do with the sinful pleasures, trappings, and endless debates of the perishing ways of this world? I chose the latter. Jesus affords me that in the Gospel.

He also saves the adulteress whom is to be murdered in the same example you use for the homosexual being dragged. Lets change a couple of things in what is being said though to see it more clearly...

Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.

You can change adutery to homosexualtiy if you like, it wont change the outcome of the truth. Focus on these things if you like, but as for me, I have the Gospel that teaches me to accept everyone with love I was accepted with. I hope this is enough for you to see im not trying to dance or lay you off. If this fires people up then it is bitterness that should be addressed within themselves. It is not my bitterness and really I dont have to be involved in it...

Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful(2 tim 2)

Most everyone always pointing the finger at everyone else...

(matt)16"To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others: 17" 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge and you did not mourn.'

Do you see the blame he is speaking of? One of the biggest lessons in the Old Testament was to learn what it was to be blameless. It is not of Christ to keep blame in your heart. Did Jesus blame the Jews? No, he forgave them.. "For they know not what they do" Quarreling produces argument and blame, two things contrary to the spirit. Discussions on what is and what is not sin can have grave consequences to those who choose to indulge in them.

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HOW did you get to that feeling of freedom? what logic/reasoning/math/science/philosophy/fairy tale/combination did you discover that helped you reach your current position? i'm seriously hoping you're not going to revert to something so vague as "the gospels" again. even if it's that, can you be just a little more specific about what exactly you read that freed you from the constraints of a life bound to the literal word of gods law

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

...Do you think they were worse sinners? Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

I tried to not be too vague. I would just post the entire Gospel, but these verses in particular are what led me to trust God with his Word and ask. This is where everything I am stemmed from. This is where my protection is and where my discernment comes from. As I said, it was the Gospel that led me to "go into my room and close the door and pray for the Holy Spirit and repentance" That is how I stand my ground in this freedom. I am sorry others seem to not be able to see it, but its there nonetheless.

"Judge and you too will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be used upon you"

Thats not too vague to me. I guess it is to alot of believers though.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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i think i did reference ron somewhere, but only as the guy who went to lengths to proclaim that some religions were cults.

"would you agree with the previously stated (elsewhere in this thread) that the religious of the world are not content to let others simply live, if those others do not agree with the religion"

Sorry about that, I thought this was a reference to a discussion with Ron? Apologies.

To answer the question, Yes, I think there are some extreme religious people who fit that criteria. I am not one of them. Jesus says "let your light shine before men, not on them. Others have to see the love. Love is not going to smother you with impatience and inflexible bigotry. Its desire it to present itself to be wanted with great passion. I think we have at least seen that example of love in life. the connection of love is a passionate one.

And I should re-iterate that just becasue someone doesnt want to be a part of whatever, doesnt mean they are predjudiced against it. Of course unless you do believe that feeling sympathy for someone is a type of predjudice? or desiring self control is a sign of self righteousness? I dont, you may feel differently.

"We didn't start the fire"

[philh 0]

any of those definition, actually in the bible? You only have one bible passage here and it doen't give a definition of blasphemy. Want to try again?

[jclalor 12]

Jesus told his followers that he would return prior to the death of some of them.

"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
—Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27

He was very wrong, it's been 2000 years, all of them are all very dead. Why would anyone still beleive anything he said?

Or was he just mistaken?