should switzerland ban the building of minarets!?

[piisfish 135]

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Not to mention that there's no structure on a synagogue that makes noise.

on Swiss minarets either

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[jakee 1,257]

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bad article, very inacurate.. and if you knew langenthal, you'd understand why people wouldnt want minarets there; small village, very countrysidish; a minaret doesnt belong there. zurich, geneva, "big" cities; doesnt really matter there..

So after 15 pages, it turns out we basically agree?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[virgin-burner 1]

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bad article, very inacurate.. and if you knew langenthal, you'd understand why people wouldnt want minarets there; small village, very countrysidish; a minaret doesnt belong there. zurich, geneva, "big" cities; doesnt really matter there..

So after 15 pages, it turns out we basically agree?

not so sure; but all the reactions after the poll really made me think, that was the right outcome.. i was rather undecided before (i never vote BTW ), and couldnt really care less.. from "i'm ashamed to be swiss" (go somewhere else, idiot) to "lets bring this to court" (fuck you, this is democracy) and "let's boycot switzerland" (dont ever come here, and take all your whinging friends with you)..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Andy9o8 0]

Oh, yeah, that's it; it's a zoning regulation. Kind of like a great big condo association. That's the ticket.

You guys don't have me fooled. No more Swiss cheese in my grocery basket anymore. From now on, it's only Freedom Cheese.

[MiataMan 0]

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This vote appears to have been strated because someone wanted to build a16.5 foot (5m) minaret. I can't see how something that is as tall as a one story building could affect any current building/zoning ordinances or any that could be passed to restrict such a structure.

If there are current Swiss ordinances that can restrict structures that are less than 16.5 feet, please provide a link. Local ordinances from Langenthal translated to English would be beneficial.

bad article, very inacurate.. and if you knew langenthal, you'd understand why people wouldnt want minarets there; small village, very countrysidish; a minaret doesnt belong there. zurich, geneva, "big" cities; doesnt really matter there..

do you know that the first (and to my knowledge only) buddhist temple in europe sits in switzerland? since like 50yrs ago.. there's a big sikh-temple, very close to langenthal actually.. the abandoned houses stuff; well, if they cant afford to build a mosque like the one in zurich (havent seen the geneva one), well, what can i say, tough titties!

Can you provide another article that is more accurate with respect to why this petition was started. You said in post #16

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there's currently 3 minarets in switzerland if i'm right, there's the building of a 4th planned which the local people opposed; from the following debatte, this initiative was formed..

Where in Switzerland was someone building the minaret?

I can understand why a "postcard town" would want to constrict height and the look of a structure.

I could not find the actual language that will be inserted into the Swiss Constitution. Can you located this and post the source?

A man without a mustache is like a hamburger without a bun, Un-American.

[virgin-burner 1]

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Oh, yeah, that's it; it's a zoning regulation. Kind of like a great big condo association. That's the ticket.

You guys don't have me fooled. No more Swiss cheese in my grocery basket anymore. From now on, it's only Freedom Cheese.

pity, since you dont even know what real swiss cheese is..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

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This vote appears to have been strated because someone wanted to build a16.5 foot (5m) minaret. I can't see how something that is as tall as a one story building could affect any current building/zoning ordinances or any that could be passed to restrict such a structure.

If there are current Swiss ordinances that can restrict structures that are less than 16.5 feet, please provide a link. Local ordinances from Langenthal translated to English would be beneficial.

bad article, very inacurate.. and if you knew langenthal, you'd understand why people wouldnt want minarets there; small village, very countrysidish; a minaret doesnt belong there. zurich, geneva, "big" cities; doesnt really matter there..

do you know that the first (and to my knowledge only) buddhist temple in europe sits in switzerland? since like 50yrs ago.. there's a big sikh-temple, very close to langenthal actually.. the abandoned houses stuff; well, if they cant afford to build a mosque like the one in zurich (havent seen the geneva one), well, what can i say, tough titties!

Can you provide another article that is more accurate with respect to why this petition was started. You said in post #16

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there's currently 3 minarets in switzerland if i'm right, there's the building of a 4th planned which the local people opposed; from the following debatte, this initiative was formed..

Where in Switzerland was someone building the minaret?

I can understand why a "postcard town" would want to constrict height and the look of a structure.

I could not find the actual language that will be inserted into the Swiss Constitution. Can you located this and post the source?

official text: "Der Bau von Minaretten ist verboten" / "the building of minarets is forbidden"

the third minaret is in wangen bei olten.

i'm NOT going to translate this stuff into proper english..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Andy9o8 0]

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Oh, yeah, that's it; it's a zoning regulation. Kind of like a great big condo association. That's the ticket.

You guys don't have me fooled. No more Swiss cheese in my grocery basket anymore. From now on, it's only Freedom Cheese.

pity, since you dont even know what real swiss cheese is..

I know how to cut the cheese, and I know how to cut through the bullshit.

[virgin-burner 1]

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Oh, yeah, that's it; it's a zoning regulation. Kind of like a great big condo association. That's the ticket.

You guys don't have me fooled. No more Swiss cheese in my grocery basket anymore. From now on, it's only Freedom Cheese.

pity, since you dont even know what real swiss cheese is..

I know how to cut the cheese, and I know how to cut through the bullshit.

nobody can fool you! you're awesome!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[billvon 2,400]

>his is a zoning enforcement rule saying you may move in move in
>and build new structures, but you have to follow these image rules.

I have no problems with such a law, provided it prohibited steeples _or_ minarets (i.e. any tall, skinny, loud structure.) However, if it bans only Islamic minarets, it wouldn't fly here.

>Kind of like telling a Medal of Honor veteran of three wars he can't
>erect a six meter flag pole in his yard.

Well, that veteran made a choice to live in a place where six meter poles are outlawed - and he won't be arrested and jailed if he does so. So it's a little different.

[Amazon 7]

I was wondering when you were going to show up to play.

So you are justifying their attacks on us based on the Balfor decision of 100 years ago.. and the actions of the CIA back in the 1950's???

Got any other excuses to dig up for justifications???

Sure go ahead and start with the Israel nonsence and justice..and your overt RACISM agains anyone without a TAN. wah wah wah...
How come you never seem to bring up the utter devastation to the Jews in EVERY muslim country after WWII..

Answer me this.. Which muslim countries and groups.. supported Hitler and the final solution during WWII???

When Hezbollah and all the other Palistinian group grow up and learns to deal with other human beings as human beings THEN you might start to talk about justice.



I take all of the incessant FATWA's seriously and realize we are at war in a long and what will be very bloody war.. I am good with existing within the bounds of the HOLY WAR that Isalm started centuries ago.. with all of us infidels. I realize what muslims are required to do... pardon me if I protect myself and my way of life in ANY way I can

[MiataMan 0]

Is there a definition of a minaret/Minaretten that will be also inserted?

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the third minaret is in wangen bei olten.

Is this the one that was under construction/in planning stages and was not approved?

No need to translate everything. If you can provide the link/info in German I can translate it.

A man without a mustache is like a hamburger without a bun, Un-American.

[christelsabine 1]

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Is there a definition of a minaret/Minaretten that will be also inserted?

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the third minaret is in wangen bei olten.

Is this the one that was under construction/in planning stages and was not approved?

No need to translate everything. If you can provide the link/info in German I can translate it.

It's the one that has been mounted - so no worries.

http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/aargau/umstrittenes-minarett-in-wangen-feierlich-eingeweiht--122390

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Darius11 12]

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I was wondering when you were going to show up to play.

You know just the right things to say i try not to say any thing as i know it will not change your mind. It gets very hard because on line you sound like a racist ass hole but at the same time i know that's not you or thats not the you i have met. I mean you didn't try to kill me when we met so its just hard when i see you right some of this shit.

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So you are justifying their attacks on us based on the Balfor decision of 100 years ago.. and the actions of the CIA back in the 1950's???

Got any other excuses to dig up for justifications???

Not trying to justify any attack just trying to show you there is enough real reason for people to be pissed at us. Its not like we have stop ed I'll just say Iraq. How many people died for a lie. Yet you expect the Iraqis and millions of family members who have had someone killed to just let it go, yet we tend to never let shit go. You tend to always say "They" want us to convert or die. As if when your born a Muslim your given your suicide belt and a target. So the events were mentioned s\to see if any of the events could be considered motive? And what would we do?
Even OBL didn't say convert or die he said he does not want US bases on Muslim holy land. Again don't jump to the conclusion that i think what he did was right, again i am just trying to show you you have over simplified the issue. It is not that they hate us because we are free it is our actions that have lead to the hate. If you want to be honest we would have reacted much harsher with a lot more lives lost.

I honestly can not understand how someone could know how we would answer the questions i asked, yet want others to not react the same way.

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When Hezbollah and all the other Palistinian group grow up and learns to deal with other human beings as human beings THEN you might start to talk about justice.

Again here we go again with your selective memory.
Were the Palestinians treated justly?
You can not do injustice and bring violence to others and then wonder why they wish the same on you.
Or do you allow people to push you around and then say thank you? Maybe that's you its not me or anyone i know.

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I take all of the incessant FATWA's seriously and realize we are at war in a long and what will be very bloody war.. I am good with existing within the bounds of the HOLY WAR that Isalm started centuries ago.. with all of us infidels. I realize what muslims are required to do... pardon me if I protect myself and my way of life in ANY way I can

I am Muslim, so are you worried next time you come too Jumptown you should ware body armor just in case i blow up?
If yes then i am truly sorry for you, and if you say no then you are wrong for your way of thinking.
And allowing the very right wing of Islam to represent all Islam is the same as assuming Pat Roberts represents all Christians in the world.
Why do you not see the fault in your logic?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Amazon 7]

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Again here we go again with your selective memory.
Were the Palestinians treated justly?

I can ask the same of you

Were the Jews in all of the muslim lands treated justly.... are christians???

Were many of the Arab Countries supporting the Third Reich during WWII??

You never answer those.. only post your questions and racism against the jews and people of Israel over and over.

[Darius11 12]

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Again here we go again with your selective memory.
Were the Palestinians treated justly?

I can ask the same of you

Were the Jews in all of the muslim lands treated justly.... are christians???

Were many of the Arab Countries supporting the Third Reich during WWII??

You never answer those.. only post your questions and racism against the jews and people of Israel over and over.

I am not the one who supports racism, never have i don't make excuses for racist behavior against ANYONE. No matter how many time i have said this you don;t believe it. That's not my issue.

And show once where i have supported any thing that would single out any religion to be treated differently? I believe in the same rights for all. Simple as that. I think you try to fit others in to your (with us or against us) mind set to make you self feel better about your self.


Hi i am Muslim and i believe in the Constitution and its rule of law. Don't want you to convert, don't even want to preach to you. If you ask or say something false i might speak up and tell you what i know. I have an American girl friend who i love and treat with respect, and she the same to me.

That is my truth my life. So when you say "they" your already wrong.

Simple as that either you get it and grow or you get to not change and remain the same. Change is hard spicily if you have set belief as a foundation for your other beliefs. I hope i will see you when you get there, if you ever get there, if you EVER GET THEREEEEEEEEEEEE. (i miss coolio)

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[piisfish 135]

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pity, since you dont even know what real swiss cheese is..

the white one.

the orange one is cheddar

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[d16842 0]

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This vote appears to have been strated because someone wanted to build a16.5 foot (5m) minaret. I can't see how something that is as tall as a one story building could affect any current building/zoning ordinances or any that could be passed to restrict such a structure.

As I wrote before, I don't think it had anything to do with minarets. That was just the focal point.

This issue was about proclaiming "This is our nation, and our culture. You may come live here, but we are drawing a line in the sand and saying we are keeping things as they are today. It is your choice to come or not. "

I have a hard time finding fault with that viewpoint, regardless of if it is in an Islamic, African, Asian, or western nation. It is their nation and culture after all. It does not belong to those who wish to immigrate.

The following article explains it much better however.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/07/AR2009120702945.html?hpid=sec-religion

Tom B

[Andy9o8 0]

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I have a hard time finding fault with that viewpoint, regardless of if it is in an Islamic, African, Asian, or western nation. It is their nation and culture after all. It does not belong to those who wish to immigrate.

Speaking for myself, I take pride in being a citizen of a country which is owned by all of its citizens, including those (or the children of those) who recently immigrated. What the Swiss define as protectionism, I define as stagnation at the very least, tinged with an undertone (or maybe overtone) of ethnic bigotry. Stagnation is certainly their prerogative. Official acting-out of bigotry is something I was raised to revile.

[d16842 0]

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Speaking for myself, I take pride in being a citizen of a country which is owned by all of its citizens, including those (or the children of those) who recently immigrated.

We share that pride. But we also live in a nation with the full authority to limit or even close its borders to immigration anytime we want, a topic that is of great national interest right now here. People have been on waiting lists to come to the US for decades. Unless you can walk here illegally, we make it pretty damn hard to get in.

Switzerland, is watching a tide of change all around them in the EU, where people are free to resettle over any of the nations at will. Furthermore, with Turkey's proposed admission to the EU, the whole balance of things in Europe could change overnight.

So the Swiss put culture controls on. It is actually far more gentle than how we limit our immigration. Unless we are willing to broadly open our borders to the world who wants to come, and all the changes they bring, ours is a very glass house indeed, and the rocks we are slinging are large.

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What the Swiss define as protectionism, I define as stagnation at the very least, tinged with an undertone (or maybe overtone) of ethnic bigotry.

You mean just like the kind of ethnic bigotry employed to "protect" the culture of upper Amazon tribes, by restricting who can move there, visit there, and what they can do there? Why is one culture more valuable than another, and who is to say where the lines must be drawn? I think that must rest within the nation itself. Especially in the EU, where anyone free to stay or go to other nations.

Tom B

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[jakee 1,257]

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Switzerland, like all EU nations,

You may want to do a little more research.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[d16842 0]

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Switzerland, like all EU nations,

You may want to do a little more research.

Actually just get some sleep this week.

I knew better than that, and corrected it. I have been there six times, and do understand the difference. Thanks.

Tom B

[Andy9o8 0]

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So the Swiss put culture controls on. It is actually far more gentle than how we limit our immigration.

I'd argue that it's actually more harsh. Once you've immigrated to a country, you should be free of ethnic discrimination against you in the nation to which you've re-settled. Nothing more (as the demagogues would like to characterize it), but nothing less. But to allow someone to immigrate into your land, and then to tolerate/facilitate hurtful ethnic discrimination against them, is really quite cruel.

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You mean just like the kind of ethnic bigotry employed to "protect" the culture of upper Amazon tribes, ...

Poor analogy, which is why I try to avoid analogies if I can. The Amazon tribes (not to be confused with the anti-rePUBICans) are nearly extinct already, and are faced with disappearing altogether. Somehow, though, I don't think that Christians in Switzerland are going to be an endangered species any time soon.

[d16842 0]

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Way to basically dismiss a person's credentials just because he's... you know, a darkie.

First I sure as hell didn't write that!

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I'd argue that it's actually more harsh. Once you've immigrated to a country, you should be free of ethnic discrimination against you in the nation to which you've re-settled. Nothing more (as the demagogues would like to characterize it), but nothing less. But to allow someone to immigrate into your land, and then to tolerate/facilitate hurtful ethnic discrimination against them, is really quite cruel.

Hurtful ethnic discrimination? We are talking about a zoning code to preserve image, and perhaps the a line in the sand for the future cultural change. And right now, from everything I have read, things are pretty damn good there in interpersonal relations, this vote aside. I think this pales compared to Frances restrictions on any religious garb in schools, DK's restriction on foreign marriage, etc. Europe is just in a mess over the whole issue. People react.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/07/AR2009120702945.html?hpid=sec-religion

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You mean just like the kind of ethnic bigotry employed to "protect" the culture of upper Amazon tribes, ...

Poor analogy, which is why I try to avoid analogies if I can. The Amazon tribes (not to be confused with the anti-rePUBICans) are nearly extinct already, and are faced with disappearing altogether. Somehow, though, I don't think that Christians in Switzerland are going to be an endangered species any time soon.

Who claimed Christians are going to be an endangered species? Wait, isn't that an analogy you try to avoid?

But the image, culture, and customs of the nation are most certainly unique in my travels, and special. And the very culture of other European nations is already under siege.

Tom B

[masterblaster72 0]

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Once you've immigrated to a country, you should be free of ethnic discrimination against you in the nation to which you've re-settled.

No, an immigrant is a guest in his/her host country and the burden is on the immigrant to respect the ways of the host country. It is not the obligation of the host country to let an immigrant do whatever he/she wishes against the will of the host populace. You're applying American ideas to a non-American country. Nor does Switzerland have an obligation to meet your standards of what's right.

Switzerland is and has always been an insular nation, and that obviously has not worked out badly for the Swiss since Switzerland is one of the most prosperous and wealthy nations in the world.

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But to allow someone to immigrate into your land, and then to tolerate/facilitate hurtful ethnic discrimination against them, is really quite cruel.

What a dramatic exaggeration. AGAIN, Switzerland is not banning headscarves or burqas.

Instead of continuing to cry bigotry, stop ignoring the ideas posted in the WP article above (and in scores of posts upthread), which I think does a fine job of explaining the outcome of this vote. I'm posting the gist of it for you in case you're not open to clicking on the link and reading the article.

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There is very little evidence that separatist, politically extreme Islam is growing rapidly in Switzerland. The Swiss, however, read newspapers and watch television. And in recent years separatist and politically extreme forms of Islam have emerged in every European country with a large Muslim population: Britain, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Denmark, Sweden. In all of these countries there have been court cases and scandals concerning forced marriage, female circumcision and honor killings. There have been terrorist incidents, too: Think of the London Tube bombings, the Spanish train bombs, the murder of Dutch film director Theo van Gogh. Remember that the Sept. 11 pilots came from Hamburg.
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There are many explanations for this phenomenon (the best is found in Christopher Caldwell's recent book, "Reflections on the Revolution in Europe"), but, to put it very crudely, they boil down to one thing: Because of mistakes made by Europeans and by the Muslim immigrants who live beside them, the two groups have, over the past several decades, failed to integrate. Two or even three generations after their arrival, some European Muslims still live in separate communities. They often go to separate schools. And a small but vocal minority openly refuses to respect the laws and customs of their adopted countries.

No European government has found a way to deal with this phenomenon. Those that have tried often find themselves running up against their own civil rights and legal traditions. The Danes, determined to limit the number of foreign spouses entering Denmark through arranged marriages, decided that they had no choice but to make it more difficult for all Danes to marry foreigners. The French, realizing that the headscarf had become a symbol of political affiliation in some French schools, found themselves limiting the rights of all students to wear religious clothing, including yarmulkes, to school.

There is, therefore, nothing especially Swiss, or especially isolationist, about the recent referendum result. A similar question, put in a similar way, might well have led to a similar result anywhere in Europe. In fact, fear of Islamist extremism shapes all European politics far more than anyone ever acknowledges. The growth of the "far right" parties in the recent past is almost always connected to fear of Islamist extremism. The opposition to Turkish membership in the European Union -- which would mean that Turks could eventually work freely in any member state -- stems from the same set of fears, though almost no one ever says this.

The referendum on the construction of minarets is no different. No one quite says what the real issue is, but everybody knows: As grotesquely unfair as a referendum to ban minarets may have been to hundreds of thousands of ordinary, well-integrated Muslims, I have no doubt that the Swiss voted in favor primarily because they don't have much Islamic extremism -- and they don't want any.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.