kallend 1,644 #1 September 2, 2009 www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/6598054.html http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #2 September 2, 2009 No problem. If, upon further investigation and evidence, he turns out to have been innocent, they can always bring him back to life. Problem solved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #3 September 2, 2009 You had 13 years to prove him innocent. You failed to do so. The original verdict stands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,146 #4 September 2, 2009 John, actual guilt or innocence does not depend on the courts or the evidence. It stands on its own. However, based on what I've read in the past, and on the article in the New Yorker, it really might be that he was innocent of the crime for which he was executed. You should read the referenced article if you haven't. It's not one-sided -- it commends Texas for doing this independent invenstigation, even though the outcome is starting to look seriously unflattering for the state. One of the best indications of the health of an institution is its willingness to publicly investigate its own flaws. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #5 September 3, 2009 Quoteit really might be that he was innocent of the crime for which he was executed. You had 13 years to present evidence and get a new trial. You didn't. So you can't complain now when the original sentence is carried out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krip 2 #6 September 3, 2009 Quote www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/6598054.html http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/09/07/090907fa_fact_grann John Thanks for the linksOne Jump Wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #7 September 3, 2009 QuoteQuoteit really might be that he was innocent of the crime for which he was executed. You had 13 years to present evidence and get a new trial. You didn't. So you can't complain now when the original sentence is carried out. Yes you can, if it comes to light before the execution, at any time, by any means, for any reason, that there is potentially exculpatory evidence. Executing an innocent person is wrong all of the time, not just some of the time or even most of the time. As such, if there is any chance that that can be prevented, all efforts, even extraordinary ones, should be taken to prevent it. The only truly final deadline is the one that is truly irreversible: the execution itself. Before that happens, there is no such thing as "too late" - at least in a civilized society. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #8 September 3, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteit really might be that he was innocent of the crime for which he was executed. You had 13 years to present evidence and get a new trial. You didn't. So you can't complain now when the original sentence is carried out. Yes you can, if it comes to light before the execution, at any time, by any means, for any reason, that there is potentially exculpatory evidence. Executing an innocent person is wrong all of the time, not just some of the time or even most of the time. As such, if there is any chance that that can be prevented, all efforts, even extraordinary ones, should be taken to prevent it. The only truly final deadline is the one that is truly irreversible: the execution itself. Before that happens, there is no such thing as "too late" - at least in a civilized society. You are being excessively kind when you refer to Texas as a "civilized society" when it comes to law enforcement activites and prosecution of accused criminals. The events that occured in Tulia, and what the state law enforecement community did (or more accurately, didn't do), reveals all that you need to know about how the Texas "Justice" system works. It appears that John's attitude is right in line with the way that the law is actually applied in Texas. Totally without any shame, he defends what is morally indefensible - the execution of an innocent man. If John was that man falsely convicted of a capital crime, I am sure he would feel a lot different about the issue. As a juvenile, I was convicted for activities that I had no knowlege of, did not participate in, and would have never done, even if I had been there. The conviction was based on the un-corroborated testimony of an undercover police officer. He said I was in on the crime, and I was convicted. It was all lies, also known as PERJURY, but that didn't matter. It is the manifestation of a sick and twisted morality to describe the execution of an innocent person as being the correct outcome of our judicial system. You should step back and truly examine your core values. Do you really believe that executing likely innocent people is a good thing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #9 September 3, 2009 Hey, they're the government! They're here to help you! They know what's good for us all! Of course you trust them, right?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,644 #10 September 3, 2009 QuoteYou had 13 years to prove him innocent. You failed to do so. The original verdict stands. Well, that's OK then. No harm done. Guilty until proven innocent. ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrDree 0 #11 September 3, 2009 QuoteDid Texas execute an innocent man? In less than 200 years, almost 1200 people have been executed (I prefer the term legally murdered) in Texas. So yes, I bet there was a bunch of innocent people among them."One day, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching." Dudeist Skydiver #101 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #12 September 3, 2009 What is your alternative? Lynch mobs? Family feuds? Duels? Just curious. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,146 #13 September 3, 2009 Actually, they did present new evidence. However, the board didn't look at it -- they just made sure that the paperwork was complete. Another inmate with almost exactly the same situation did have his data reviewed, and reversed. Again, the fact that the state of Texas is reviewing it now is an indication that it might not have been perfect in the past. And I still think that the fact that it's willing to review is a good thing. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #14 September 3, 2009 QuoteGuilty until proven innocent. I thought he was already proven Guilty?If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #15 September 3, 2009 QuoteI thought he was already proven Guilty? I haven't read the article yet (it's hella long) but from the synopsis it said that almost all of the evidence against him was forensic, and it was all shown later to be faulty. His initial attorneys did not question any of the bad forensic evidence, and when later experts presented new evidence that the original forensics were not valid, their evidence was not considered. He was declared guilty. Whether he was actually proven guilty is apparently debatable. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,146 #16 September 3, 2009 Proven guilty is not the same as actually guilty. After all, OJ was not convicted of killing his wife. Does that mean he's innocent? Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #17 September 3, 2009 Yet another perfect example of why we need to abolish the death penalty. If for no other reason than it cannot be undone. The Texas legal system is a stellar example of mind numbing incompetence and unfairness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #18 September 3, 2009 ... well i clicked on the New Yorker article , read the beginning of it...then found it to be 17 pages long...... ..Longwinded,,, just as you'd EXPECT a New Yorker to be,,,BUT.... I read enough at the start, to learn of the mans' claim that he awoke to the cries, of a daughter... If he heard her cry out... he shouldda been near enough to her, to get to her,, scoop her up, and hopefully get OUT... Maybe return, snatching the 2 others, by their PJ's if needed,, and GET Out.....!!! quick... like a bull in a china shop,,, Like a linebacker on a tackling mission,,, like a fearful and dedicated father....operating on guts, instinct, and adrenaline...not faltering , not hesitating,,, not thinking.. Just DOing...!i've never encountered such a situation,, BUt i'd figure. with fire,, Doing SOMEthing, NOW!!!!!!!is better than trying to do it, later.... fire usually gets worse,, . So... to find himself "out on the porch".. means that he failed as the guardian and protector of those kids..for THAT alone,,, he's guilty of something HE shouldda suffered smoke inhalation,, at the very least.. and tragic death, at the worst.. But he SHOULD have performed some sort of rescue attempt... Now i don't have the time to read the rest, and can't say whether he was or was not falsely convicted.....if he did or did NOT create that scenerio....all i feel,,,, is that he failed his kids,, and from the sounds of it failed his marriage earlier,,,,,as well.... he Could have plead to the charges in return for life.. did NOT, and so the snowball runs and runs, downhill,, to eventual execution.... sad.... as to the original question posed by kallend... and irrespective of THIS case..... SURE!!! Texas, and a damn bunch of OTHER states certainly HAVE executed inncocent men... no dispute , about that. jt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,644 #19 September 3, 2009 QuoteQuoteGuilty until proven innocent. I thought he was already proven Guilty? Try NOT snipping the context, which was JR's comment "You had 13 years to prove him innocent."... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyBoyd 0 #20 September 3, 2009 QuoteYou had 13 years to prove him innocent. You failed to do so. The original verdict stands. What a ridiculously ignorant notion of how the criminal justice system works. No criminal defendant is required to prove his innocence. Also an incredibly callous statement from a moral point of view. Do you actually approve of executing innocent people??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #21 September 3, 2009 QuoteTry NOT snipping the context, which was JR's comment "You had 13 years to prove him innocent." I was just asking. Was he or was he not found guilty in court?If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #22 September 3, 2009 QuoteWhat is your alternative? Lynch mobs? Family feuds? Duels? Just curious. In this specific instance? How about not killing people? It's cheaper, and functionally equivalent, to lock them up for the rest of their lives. Plus, it's somewhat reversible, should an error be discovered. In general? I'm a big fan of letting people do whatever they want, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. And our government (like most others) has a long history of bullying people while claiming that it's "for their own good."-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #23 September 3, 2009 The problem here seems to be with the appeals process in Texas, not the death penalty. I don't think it's significantly better to have been jailed for 13 years and then released. Your life is still over. Part of the solution to this is to jail prosecutors who commit willful fraud to get their convictions. If they serve the same length as the victim (or die if they are executed), that will cut down on some of these railroading convictions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #24 September 3, 2009 Isn't it funny how all the moral crusaders against the death penalty only show up after someone is executed? If they really cared about innocent human life, they would spend their time getting retrials and appeals for people they believe to be innocent, so that the death penalty would no longer be an issue. But instead, they just let the men die, then prance and scream about how unjust it is. The fact is, these anti-death penalty folks are just using these men to further their personal political goals, and really don't give a damn about the human being who sits in prison. It's also funny how these high and mighty crusaders show themselves to be bigots by condemning the entire Texas justice system, because of a few isolated cases. The fact is, no justice system is perfect. Not in Texas, nor in any other state. If the evidence had been so overwhelming that this man was innocent, the moral crusaders should have been able to get him a retrial sometime during the last 13 years. Perhaps their evidence showing his innocence isn't really as strong as they claim... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #25 September 3, 2009 Quote No problem. If, upon further investigation and evidence, he turns out to have been innocent, they can always bring him back to life. Problem solved. At least he had a chance.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
