The human side of NAZI concentration camp guards

[billvon 2,400]

>I know I couldn't have been part of the torture. I couldn't stand before
>God, and tell him that I had done that to another person. I would rather
>have died.

I have no doubt you are correct.

But I am also troubled by the people here who defend torture, illegal long term imprisonment, violence towards muslims etc in the name of patriotism. If it's that easy to get people to hate a specific religious group in a free society, imagine how easy it is to get people to hate a specific religious group when the government controls all the media.

Imagine, for example, a society where you are a guard over people who you have been told are torturers, murderers and pedophiles. Would you be more likely to look the other way as one prisoner was tortured? "Getting his just desserts" so to speak? We've had people here defend torturing our prisoners for precisely that reason. And when they turn out to be innocent, well, what a surprise! No one could have known.

Seeing how easily people here condone torture makes me think that it wouldn't take much to get them to condone (and indeed support) the horrors seen in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's - provided they had a government willing to spoon feed them the reasons to hate.

[Skyrad 0]

Quote

What a great topic !!! What a lack of knowledge !!!

ANY company in Germany was benefiting from, at least., 'forced labor'

Werner Von Braun laid the foundation for the trip to the moon on the backs of thousands upon thousands of forced laborers (see Peenemunde).

Someone said, you'd do it if your alternative was a bullet.
The average guard/executioner could ask for a transfer AT ANY TIME, no questions asked, no stain on their record.

Please read something on the EinzatsGruppen (spelling?) .. they followed the initial invasion of Poland and Russia and shot HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS ... this was not faceless gassing in a concentration camp... this was blasting away, right there, with blood spraying all over you. They moved to ovens and such because the shooting was just not efficient.

The Einzatsgruppen was ... what ? dedicated Nazi idealogue nutcases?? NO ... it was overwhelmingly normal German Policemen who got called up for 'special' duty ... they could ask to leave at ANY time with no questions asked, the government documents clearly laid that out... they knew it was nasty and DID NOT FORCE ANYONE to stay ...

by all accounts, many of them got drunk... a lot... but figured it was their 'duty'., so very few (they documented cases of some that did) transferred out...

they should have hung every last one of them ...

I'm glad you like the thread.

While many companies used forced labour not all companies had working factories inside concentration camps, produced the electricity for the camps and one company had their name stamped on the ovens that were used to burn millions of murdered Jews, that company was Siemens. If you don't believe me go to Buchenwald and see for yourself. You can also read the research of Jean-Claude Pressac in his book Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers, if you are interested in an equally academic but slightly less weighty tome I'd suggest
Carlo Mattogno's paper The Crematoria Ovens of Auschwitz and Birkenau. Also see
“Die Krematoriumsöfen von Auschwitz-Birkenau”, in: Ernst Gauss (ed.), Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschichte. Ein Handbuch über strittige Fragen des 20. Jahrhunderts, Grabert-Verlag, Tübingen 1994, pp. 281-320.

I'm very aware of the work of the 'Einsatzgruppen ' all six groups including the groundwork that was laid by Rauff and Six for the Einsatzgruppen for the UK, the middle east and the US.
They were formed by Heydrich back in '38 and contrary to your assertations that they were all German police, the majority were actually SS and SD though many were kripo (et al).

Although many were Germans they were assited in their duties by Latvian, Estonian & Lithuanians. These men were known as the Mannschaft and many of the Lithuanians were "Junaks" or former convicts.
Don't forget that they were also joined by gendarmes of the Ukrainian police all of whom took a very active part in the mass murders. So your assertation that they were all German policemen is not correct. An example of this was the use of Lituanian partisans t conduct killings with Einsatzkommando 3. This is well documented in the Jäger Report, a copy of which can be seen in the following link

http://www.holocaust-history.org/works/jaeger-report/htm/img001.htm.de

Alternativly you can view the original text in person at the Central Lithuanian Archives in Vilnius (by appointment only). where they hold the last existing copy of the six page report out of the original five copies.



I'd also suggest that is a mistake to assume that one lacks knowledge based on a couple of posts.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[squarecanopy 0]

Quote

Quote

Point taken but Siemens in Israel????

Money is money. Israel has no problem hosting the two Bush presidents, or taking money from the US during their presidencies. Even though their family fortune is for a large part due to lucrative business with the nazis.

And do you have evidence of this? Please post it.

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[skybill 18]

Quote

How do you view the Concentration Camp guards of Auschwitz? Is there any circumstance where you could imagine that it could have been you on the ramp in a Nazi uniform? Were they humans or monsters?


http://www.flickr.com/photos/32250091@N03/sets/72157616388023407/show/

Hi Sky,
Google Phil Zimbardo and the Stanford Prison experiment. It is not "the" answer but it sure opens up a lot of questions that are still looking for answers....and it's been 30+years!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Quote

Quote

desertion happens over much less

Yeah, like this, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment

Im disappointed in you. fixed.

Why so? I don't condone either action, however if you're going to point out that people should have deserted because the actions violated their moral grounds, then one should have expected both parties to bail....

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Quote

Even though their family fortune is for a large part due to lucrative business with the nazis.

And do you have evidence of this? Please post it.

Source 1

Source 2

Source 3

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Skyrad 0]

Thanks Skybill, I studied these studies as part of my degree. Interesting the human psyche. Very telling that the prisoner studies had to be ended early.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Misternatural 0]

My dad spent two years in a Nazi prison camp in Poland, captured from the Italian resistance as a border guard, I have two reels of tape recording his accounts of the experience and I have to say there were many similarities between the practices used at the concentration camps widely depicted, everything from the trains to the execution practices. Even though he was sometimes treated brutally he was amazed at the Germans attention to efficiency and engineering. He survived because he made himself useful as a worker, he was a mason by trade- but To illustrate these points- Many times his job was dragging dead bodies to the edge of a pit using a long handled hook which was sunken into the area below the chin, if there was a chin, none the less a very efficient and thought out way of doing things- especially since usually prisoners did not weigh much when they finally met their end. I have about two hours of these stories and believe me they are not enjoyable at all. He held no ill will against the German people afterward, and befriended a number of ex Nazis here in the US.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[beqa 0]

As a Christian, I believe that God gave us the right of free will. I believe that steams to all areas, including the right not to believe in God, in the right to choose which religion you do want to believe in, etc.

As far as a government telling you that it is ok to do something to someone because they don't believe what you believe, then if falls to you to either believe the government or your one conscience. Unfortunately, as history has shown, humans tend to make those decisions badly. It's up to each indivivdual to get information and make their own choices.

Me, I don't trust the governments very much. They lie too much, and twist everything to their benefit.

Also, I find it really interesting that the muslims and Christians have such big problems with each other. Seeing as how we are both branched from the same religion (Judism). We just took it to two different arenas.

It's also unfortunate that people tend to judge people on their differences, before you get to know them or the truth. Because in most cases, if you try to understand, you find out that you were wrong to begin with. I think most people just don't like to admit that they are wrong, and that causes a lot of friction in society. Leading to a lot of bad things, like war. (altough there are exceptions to the war thing, sometimes it's inevitable, unfortunately)

[Remster 24]

Quote

Quote

Quote

You are right, Concentration camp guards, Serbian genocide perpertrators, Hutu murderers et al. What does it take for a ordinary person to become a instrument of mass murder and or torture?

I really don't think it takes a lot. Once you set up the conditions of a guard/prisoner relationship, stuff can start to happen pretty fast. Hell, it -might- even be hard wired into our little monkey brains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxGEmfNl-xM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

I do NOT expect the average front line soldier to have extensive knowledge of this psychology. I would hope that those in charge would have a broader base of knowledge and would therefore keep an eye out for abuse spiraling out of control.

Also, the Milgram Experiment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

And the TV movie made about it:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075320/

Some other interesting reading if you want to explore this phenomenon.
http://www.lucifereffect.com/

Remster

[squarecanopy 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Even though their family fortune is for a large part due to lucrative business with the nazis.

And do you have evidence of this? Please post it.

Source 1

Source 2

Source 3

That is a thin connection at best between Prescott Bush and "the Nazis".

And I certainly don't think it is moral to hold the son and granson accountable for the sins of the father.

While Prescott Bush was "connected" to the German banking system, His son George was over in the Pacific flying his torpedo bomber against ( and being shot down at Iwo Jima by) the Japanese. Sounds like the actions of a Nazi lover to me.

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[quade 3]

Yeah, there's WAY better reasons to hate on the Bush family than that.

Propping up current tyrannical dictators for instance.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

Sounds like the actions of a Nazi lover to me.

Two small points (whether the story is correct or not);

The Japanese weren't Nazi's.

The alleged actions wouldn't require P. Bush to be a Nazi lover or sympathiser, just someone who was willing to trade with them for profit.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Niki1 1]

Quote

Quote

Question: I don't think we're actually talking about Nazis in this thread. What do you think?

I think you're right. The difference the Nazi guards and the current prinsoner abuse is several orders of magnitude but you got it right about the chain of command above the guards. They were held accountable then but not now, it seems.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

• Quote

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

How do you view the Concentration Camp guards of Auschwitz? Is there any circumstance where you could imagine that it could have been you on the ramp in a Nazi uniform? Were they humans or monsters?


http://www.flickr.com/photos/32250091@N03/sets/72157616388023407/show/

Thanks for starting this thread and for all of your responses. I've just had time to read through it and look at the pictures.

Watching that slide show does show how much “they” did things and looked like “us.”

The lesson I take from the slide show (& much of the history of humans doing atrocious things to other humans) is to be vigilant of my own behavior and behavior of groups with which I associate/affiliate or represent me. We humans have many amazing abilities – the ability to rationalize our own behavior is among them.

I checked all of the boxes.

One can find historical examples of monsters, pyschopaths, accomplices, deserters, victims of circumstance, and rare -- much too rare, imo -- examples of bravery and hope.

Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

Quote

What is most remarkable to me is how ingrained this genocide was in the Nazi government yet Allied forces didn't learn of it until they rolled up on the camps themselves. How is it even possible for over 11 million people (6 mil being Jewish) to be systematically murdered in 5 years and noone outside of the Nazis know about it?

It's only remarkable if you weren't be facetious in asking the question.

The Allies knew.

Yes, they knew. But what options did they have? From a brutal realistic tactical and logistical perspective? Until the Allies moved the front into Germany and into Poland, what were the options? Bomb the concentration camps? (Most were in Eastern Europe; there were limited number fo planes with that range.) Bomb the rail lines? (Targeting wasn't as precise as it is today.) Would the latter have been a short term tactical gain at risk of longer term strategic wins that would bring the regime to an end?

Most of the cited actions that Allies could have taken (criticisms of lack of action) involve things like allowing more Jewish refugees to emigrate. (I.e., the kind of things that frequently get criticized as "soft" in discussions here.)

And it's not a dumb question. It's not simple black-n-white or binary option.

There were also domestic vocal opponents of the war. The non-interventionists and isolationists seeded doubt in a direct and non-direct ways in the US. And there those ranging from outright Nazi sympathizers to subtle anti-Semitism (of which there was a tremendous amount in the US at the time) who challenged the accounts.

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[BaronVonBoll 0]

A point I would like to make. I was a 1st Lt. during desert storm. My platoon was detailed to a Prisoner of war collection point. I made it very clear to my entire command that "ANYONE" committing any kind of abuse would share the compound with the prisoner he or she abused. For the most part, the prisoners we processed through the collection point were civil people and decent enough. most didn’t even have angry or belligerent feelings towards us at all. Most were happy to have shelter and three meals a day even if they were MREs. (Meals Ready to Eat). None of my srgts. ever reported a single incident of abuse and only three incidents in nine months of someone actually hitting a prisoner in self defense! I admit there were cases in in some areas that would be considered abuse but not by my men nor is it even common just more reportable by the newsies!

[squarecanopy 0]

Quote

Quote

Sounds like the actions of a Nazi lover to me.

Two small points (whether the story is correct or not);

Quote

Don't feel bad, Jack. I don't know much about specific points of WWII British air war history ....
If you pick up a copy of Flyboys by James Bradley you can get the full story.

The Japanese weren't Nazi's.

True. The ones George Bush fought against at Iwo Jima and Chichi Jima were not Nazis. They were fanatic, murderous professional soldiers who did horrible things to their prisoners such as stabbing them to death with swords and bayonets, beheading them, and then eating parts of them in ceremonial "dinner parties".
This is all documented in James Bradley's book as well, from soldiers on both sides.

The alleged actions wouldn't require P. Bush to be a Nazi lover or sympathiser, just someone who was willing to trade with them for profit.

True.

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

A point I would like to make. I was a 1st Lt. during desert storm. My platoon was detailed to a Prisoner of war collection point. I made it very clear to my entire command that "ANYONE" committing any kind of abuse would share the compound with the prisoner he or she abused. For the most part, the prisoners we processed through the collection point were civil people and decent enough. most didn’t even have angry or belligerent feelings towards us at all. Most were happy to have shelter and three meals a day even if they were MREs. (Meals Ready to Eat). None of my srgts. ever reported a single incident of abuse and only three incidents in nine months of someone actually hitting a prisoner in self defense! I admit there were cases in in some areas that would be considered abuse but not by my men nor is it even common just more reportable by the newsies!

Thanks for putting that out there. Great example, imo, of the importance of leadership and choices that can be made … & I might speculate, also underlying institutionalization and doctrine, e.g., one more reason why those FMs are important.

I remember talking with Nate Fick a few years ago. He led a platoon from 1st Recon BN in OIF; think he was a 1st Lt at the time. When he and his Marines got into southern Iraq on the 21st or 22nd of March 2003, they encountered Iraqi Army (not Revolutionary Guard) wanting to surrender. The standard that you and your colleagues in Desert Storm set lasted and benefited the first US and allied troops that were deployed into Iraq in 2003. It does matter.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

Don't feel bad, Jack. I don't know much about specific points of WWII British air war history ....

I meant the story about Prescott Bush financing the Nazi's, not about GHW fighting in the Pacific theatre.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?