The human side of NAZI concentration camp guards

[Skyrad 0]

How do you view the Concentration Camp guards of Auschwitz? Is there any circumstance where you could imagine that it could have been you on the ramp in a Nazi uniform? Were they humans or monsters?


http://www.flickr.com/photos/32250091@N03/sets/72157616388023407/show/

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Butters 0]

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How do you view the Concentration Camp guards of Auschwitz?

I view them as accomplices.

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Is there any circumstance where you could imagine that it could have been you on the ramp in a Nazi uniform?

No.

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Were they humans or monsters?

They were humans.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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I think it depended on the individual.

Some of them probably did get off on it and were monsters.

However, my guess is that if you are assigned by the Nazi government to go somewhere, you probably did. Once there, if you saw the killing of prisoners, what precisely would you do about it? Refuse orders?

Yes, yes, we all say we would while comfortably typing at our keyboards.

I'm thinking that most of the guards didn't refuse orders because they were scared shitless they'd be tossed in with the prisoners and also killed.

The real culpability lies mostly not with the front line guards, but with the chain of command above them.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[downwardspiral 0]

desertion happens over much less

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[quade 3]

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desertion happens over much less

Perhaps, depends on if the soldier thinks he actually has someplace he can run to.

Question: I don't think we're actually talking about Nazis in this thread. What do you think?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,400]

>How do you view the Concentration Camp guards of Auschwitz?

Same way I view the US troops who stood by idly while innocent prisoners were beaten to death in Iraq. I am sure some of them were good, moral people - but they ended up in a bad situation and just went with the herd instead of making a hard decision to try to stop it.

[Skyrad 0]

You are right, Concentration camp guards, Serbian genocide perpertrators, Hutu murderers et al. What does it take for a ordinary person to become a instrument of mass murder and or torture? This thread is as much about 'us' as it is about 'them' what seperates us? I suspect in may cases only circumstance.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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You are right, Concentration camp guards, Serbian genocide perpertrators, Hutu murderers et al. What does it take for a ordinary person to become a instrument of mass murder and or torture?

I really don't think it takes a lot. Once you set up the conditions of a guard/prisoner relationship, stuff can start to happen pretty fast. Hell, it -might- even be hard wired into our little monkey brains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxGEmfNl-xM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

I do NOT expect the average front line soldier to have extensive knowledge of this psychology. I would hope that those in charge would have a broader base of knowledge and would therefore keep an eye out for abuse spiraling out of control.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[downwardspiral 0]

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desertion happens over much less

Perhaps, depends on if the soldier thinks he actually has someplace he can run to.

Question: I don't think we're actually talking about Nazis in this thread. What do you think?

I suppose it was only a matter of time before the discussion turned away from the Nazis. However I think its a huge stretch to compare what our soldiers did in Iraq with the near extermination of an entire race of humans.

What is most remarkable to me is how ingrained this genocide was in the Nazi government yet Allied forces didn't learn of it until they rolled up on the camps themselves. How is it even possible for over 11 million people (6 mil being Jewish) to be systematically murdered in 5 years and noone outside of the Nazis know about it?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[ryoder 1,387]

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You are right, Concentration camp guards, Serbian genocide perpertrators, Hutu murderers et al. What does it take for a ordinary person to become a instrument of mass murder and or torture?

I really don't think it takes a lot. Once you set up the conditions of a guard/prisoner relationship, stuff can start to happen pretty fast. Hell, it -might- even be hard wired into our little monkey brains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxGEmfNl-xM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

I do NOT expect the average front line soldier to have extensive knowledge of this psychology. I would hope that those in charge would have a broader base of knowledge and would therefore keep an eye out for abuse spiraling out of control.

Also, the Milgram Experiment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

And the TV movie made about it:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075320/

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[kelpdiver 2]

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What is most remarkable to me is how ingrained this genocide was in the Nazi government yet Allied forces didn't learn of it until they rolled up on the camps themselves. How is it even possible for over 11 million people (6 mil being Jewish) to be systematically murdered in 5 years and noone outside of the Nazis know about it?

It's only remarkable if you weren't be facetious in asking the question.

The Allies knew.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>How do you view the Concentration Camp guards of Auschwitz?

Same way I view the US troops who stood by idly while innocent prisoners were beaten to death in Iraq. I am sure some of them were good, moral people - but they ended up in a bad situation and just went with the herd instead of making a hard decision to try to stop it.

It's not a fair comparison. US soldiers can actually do something - they have regulations, media, and the consequence would be to their military careers. It's possible there would be unofficial reprisals.

But in the middle of Nazi Germany...dissent wasn't something that was acceptable. I think the best they could do is ask for reassignment.

It's very easy to say to yourself now, you would have resisted. Doesn't actually require any proof either. Consider the Jews in the camp that facilitated the slaughter. Are they evil beasts, or just victims who tried to survive?

[quade 3]

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I suppose it was only a matter of time before the discussion turned away from the Nazis. However I think its a huge stretch to compare what our soldiers did in Iraq with the near extermination of an entire race of humans.

Who said anything about Iraq?

In any case, I think that if you start a discussion with the word Nazi in the title, people will immediately dismiss any amount of cruelty as something that's 100% unattainable by anyone they personally know or could even imagine themselves being involved in. Just the word Nazi itself puts a huge barriers to communication up.

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What is most remarkable to me is how ingrained this genocide was in the Nazi government yet Allied forces didn't learn of it until they rolled up on the camps themselves. How is it even possible for over 11 million people (6 mil being Jewish) to be systematically murdered in 5 years and noone outside of the Nazis know about it?

Well, I think you can start by looking at where the camps themselves were located. They weren't exactly in downtown Berlin.

Believe it or not, MANY of the early killings were justified for "humanitarian" reasons (at least in their minds). By killing the people, they didn't have to feed or house them and more resources could be given to their own troops. This is, in part, why they called it "The Final Solution".

Again, once you start down the path of guard/prisoner and especially during a war, things can go downhill pretty damn fast.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[downwardspiral 0]

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What is most remarkable to me is how ingrained this genocide was in the Nazi government yet Allied forces didn't learn of it until they rolled up on the camps themselves. How is it even possible for over 11 million people (6 mil being Jewish) to be systematically murdered in 5 years and noone outside of the Nazis know about it?

It's only remarkable if you weren't be facetious in asking the question.

The Allies knew.

You know what...you're right. Twas a dumb question.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[DARK 0]

my father was talking to a man only last week who was drafted into the wehrmarcht during the second world war along with his brother, he survived

one night in camp his brother and 2 others were drinking and decided to go out after curfew. an officer caught them and asked them were they aware they were out after curfew apparently they said they were and he executed them on the spot

if the german army told you to do something you do it. this only absolves you up to a point however as there are things you have to be willing to stand up to and cowardice isnt an excuse mass mass murder is one of them

it is not as black and white as some in this thread would suggest


also there was a documentary on the history channel that had the very first aerial surveillance photos of a concetration camp that the allies took i can remember when they said they were took but they had people being led of trains etc so when the allies received these they knew what was happening(the people at the top anyway) but what difference would this have made either way? the germans were winning the war for most of it afaik knowing or not knowing would not have changed that

[downwardspiral 0]

bilvon mentioned Iraq. I saw his post before replying to yours.


So you could imagine yourself be a part of a genocide? Could others more easily identify with what happened in Cambodia, Darfur, Rwanda, and Serbia?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[DARK 0]

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It's not a fair comparison. US soldiers can actually do something - they have regulations, media, and the consequence would be to their military careers. It's possible there would be unofficial reprisals.

so you think what the american soldiers did was worse? im not agreeing or disagreeing i just want to make sure you know that that is what is implied by your answer

[quade 3]

Again, I refer you back to the psychological studies.

I think NONE of us truly have any idea what we'd do in a number of situations. We say what we think we'd do while sitting in our Barcaloungers typing away on our laptops, but until we're actually in the situation, the truth is we have no fucking idea.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

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so you think what the american soldiers did was worse?

Read this;

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Guards forced the prisoners to count off repeatedly as a way to learn their prison numbers, and to reinforce the idea that this was their new identity. Guards soon used these prisoner counts as another method to harass the prisoners, using physical punishment such as protracted exercise for errors in the prisoner count. Sanitary conditions declined rapidly, made worse by the guards refusing to allow some prisoners to urinate or defecate. As punishment, the guards would not let the prisoners empty the sanitation bucket. Mattresses were a valued item in the spartan prison, so the guards would punish prisoners by removing their mattresses, leaving them to sleep on concrete. Some prisoners were forced to go nude as a method of degradation, and some were subjected to sexual humiliation, including simulated homosexual sex.

Sound familiar? Where do you think that happened?


Answer.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[downwardspiral 0]

mind providing a link to these psychological studies? I'm interested in learning more.


edited to add: I see you did already. cool

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[quade 3]

We've already posted several in this thread, just scroll back.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[dreamdancer 0]

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I do NOT expect the average front line soldier to have extensive knowledge of this psychology. I would hope that those in charge would have a broader base of knowledge and would therefore keep an eye out for abuse spiraling out of control.

i think every student/soldier/citizen should have a good basic knowledge of these experiments.

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[DARK 0]

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mind providing a link to these psychological studies? I'm interested in learning more.

the youtube link provided up the thread is one of them

[quade 3]

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I do NOT expect the average front line soldier to have extensive knowledge of this psychology. I would hope that those in charge would have a broader base of knowledge and would therefore keep an eye out for abuse spiraling out of control.

i think every student/soldier/citizen should have a good basic knowledge of these experiments.

As do I, but I don't think it's on the list of items in "No Child Left Behind".

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Skyrad 0]

I'm disgusted at the Israeli government (Nothing to do with the Palistinians this time) and the Jews who not only let operate in Israel but work for Siemens.

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Siemens was involved in funding the rise of the Nazi Party and the secret rearmament of Germany. During the Second World War, Siemens supported the Hitler regime, contributed to the war effort and participated in the "Nazification" of the economy. Siemens had many factories in and around notorious extermination camps such as Auschwitz and used slave labor from concentration camps to build electric switches for military uses. In one example, almost 100,000 men and women from Auschwitz worked in a Siemens factory inside the camp, supplying the electricity to the camp.

This is surely shameful. Jews who work for Siemens are pissing on the memory of those who died in the camps. THAT is true moral cowardness.

http://www.siemens.co.il/

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At Siemens we define
work a little differently

No shit

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca