Obama secretly ends program that let pilots carry guns

[JohnRich 4]

Editorial:

Obama secretly ends program that let pilots carry guns

After the September 11 attacks, commercial airline pilots were allowed to carry guns if they completed a federal-safety program. No longer would unarmed pilots be defenseless as remorseless hijackers seized control of aircraft and rammed them into buildings.

Now President Obama is quietly ending the federal firearms program, risking public safety on airlines in the name of an anti-gun ideology.

The Obama administration this past week diverted some $2 million from the pilot training program to hire more supervisory staff, who will engage in field inspections of pilots.

This looks like completely unnecessary harassment of the pilots. The 12,000 Federal Flight Deck Officers, the pilots who have been approved to carry guns, are reported to have the best behavior of any federal law enforcement agency. There are no cases where any of them has improperly brandished or used a gun...

Source: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/17/guns-on-a-plane-obama-secretly-ends-program-that-l/

[quade 3]

Two points;

1) Washington Times - notorious for misrepresenting stories from the extreme right wing point of view.
2) Nowhere in this Editorial do I see where anyone has actually ended the program.

Got a more credible source with any actual facts?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[riddler 0]

Nice thing about editorial pieces - they don't need to have any facts, speculation will do nicely. The only "evidence" I read in that article was that the approval process for obtaining guns for pilots has slowed down, in the opinion of a few un-named people that were asked about it. I would think right-wingers would chalk this up to our grossly overpaid and inefficient government before labeling it as a left-wing agenda.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[livendive 8]

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Now President Obama is quietly ending the federal firearms program, risking public safety on airlines in the name of an anti-gun ideology.

The Obama administration this past week diverted some $2 million from the pilot training program to hire more supervisory staff, who will engage in field inspections of pilots.

I don’t see where he ended the program, it sounds like he just moved some funding around. Pilot training sounds to me like a staff development activity that should be funded by the industry. Field inspections, on the other hand, sound like an oversight activity which would fall into the hands of regulators (in our current big government model). So despite the fact that I typically agree with you on gun control issues, this seems to me like a logical restructuring of government spending.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kelpdiver 2]

Even in the Bush Administration, the complaints about foot dragging and defunding to cripple the program were universal complaints.

[rehmwa 2]

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I don't see where he outlawed the research , it sounds like he just deleted some funding for a certain strain of stem cells . stem cell research sounds to me like a private industry development activity that should be funded by the industry.

Everybody does it.....it makes it much more dramatic to those that don't do the research

Edit: I voted delete the funding. If a private citizen (like a pilot) wants to carry, they should get training. If an industry wants their pilots to carry - then the industry should pay for the training. Not all of us.

Same thought process goes for a LOT of stuff.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,147]

You sly devil you

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[livendive 8]

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I don't see where he outlawed the research , it sounds like he just deleted some funding for a certain strain of stem cells . stem cell research sounds to me like a private industry development activity that should be funded by the industry.

Everybody does it.....it makes it much more dramatic to those that don't do the research

Edit: I voted delete the funding. If a private citizen (like a pilot) wants to carry, they should get training. If an industry wants their pilots to carry - then the industry should pay for the training. Not all of us.

Same thought process goes for a LOT of stuff.

I agree that stem cell research should be industry funded, and don't think Bush's withholding of federal funds ended those efforts. His restrictions on which lines could be used in privately-funded research were a wholly different matter.

Edit to add: My opinion is basically the same as your's, but I didn't vote because there isn't an option that matches it.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Capt.Slog 0]

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Two points;

1) Washington Times - notorious for misrepresenting stories from the extreme right wing point of view.

Indeed, it was the Washington Times that got its panties in a wad in its bogus story about "Pelosi's jet".

I'd believe The Onion before I believed anything printed in the WT.

Pretty dangerous program anyway:
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/25/national/main3965159.shtml

[downwardspiral 0]

1 accident in 7 years constitutes a dangerous program?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Rookie120 0]

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Pretty dangerous program anyway:

One pilot starts jackin around with his pistol and shoots a hole and it's a dangerous program? One in seven years. hmmmmm, one guy hooked in the ground and died last month. Guess we should ban those also. Pretty dangerous move.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Gawain 0]

I've never really liked the pilots with guns...and I'm pro-gun...

Close-quarters, limited training...not to mention the BS procedures that TSA has in place that the pilots have to go through to bring a weapon on board, the retarded locking system, and the negligent-discharge that we had. All we need is one more, and someone to be on the wrong end of that...

After 9/11, there isn't a cabin in the world that isn't going to sit idly by and let a hi-jacking occur again. The pilots fly the plane, send out the distress call behind the reinforced door, and the passengers will kick the sh*t out of the would-be hijackers.

I hate to say it...I really do, but guns and planes is a bad mix. One wrong move, and it get's really, really wrong. I'd rather confront a box-cutter wielding scum bag than a gun carrying one who maybe overpowered a pilot...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[JohnRich 4]

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Close-quarters, limited training...

They train for a week, and that's just to shoot at terrorists coming one at a time through one small door. How long do you think that should take? Given the very limited nature of the scenario they face, I think a week is plenty.

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I hate to say it...I really do, but guns and planes is a bad mix. One wrong move, and it get's really, really wrong. I'd rather confront a box-cutter wielding scum bag than a gun carrying one who maybe overpowered a pilot...

Don't tell me you believe that Hollywood movie crap, where one bullet hole causes the entire airplane to explode, or people to be sucked out through a quarter-inch hole?

Even people quoted in the newspaper, supposedly intelligent people, like this bozo, don't know the facts:

"The TSA has never been real supportive of this program," said Mike Boyd, who runs the Colorado-based aviation consulting firm The Boyd Group... he said Saturday's incident could have been much worse. 'If that bullet had compromised the shell of the airplane, i.e., gone through a window, the airplane could have gone down,' he said."

It sounds to me like Mr. Boyd shouldn't be running an aviation consulting firm if he believes such myths. It's a great story though, for motivating ignorant people to ask Congress to ban armed pilots on planes.

[downwardspiral 0]

I found the "consultant's" comment very odd as well. Dramatic is what it is. Sure there are sensitive components that if struck by a bullet could cause a flight to be more exciting than it needed to be but "gone down?" Come on. What person who knows anything about aviation talks like that?

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Gawain 0]

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Close-quarters, limited training...

They train for a week, and that's just to shoot at terrorists coming one at a time through one small door. How long do you think that should take? Given the very limited nature of the scenario they face, I think a week is plenty.

Well, I can tell you from my own experience in tight quarters situations, you never know what you'll face...even if there is only one way in or out. And that was from far more than a week of training.

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I hate to say it...I really do, but guns and planes is a bad mix. One wrong move, and it get's really, really wrong. I'd rather confront a box-cutter wielding scum bag than a gun carrying one who maybe overpowered a pilot...

Don't tell me you believe that Hollywood movie crap, where one bullet hole causes the entire airplane to explode, or people to be sucked out through a quarter-inch hole?

Hell no. Just don't tell me that a bullet has no effect on an aircraft with thin-skin...or an engine...or a fuel tank...or a cockpit computer...or a hydraulic system...

Here's my take: It adds an element or variable that does not need to be there. 9/11 forever changed the dynamic. Passengers will automatically know the result of inaction, and they will act. The hijackers will never get near the door, and they will fail in their endeavors.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Hell no. Just don't tell me that a bullet has no effect on an aircraft with thin-skin...or an engine...or a fuel tank...or a cockpit computer...or a hydraulic system...

It's a long ways to the nearest engine or fuel tank.

[Gawain 0]

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Hell no. Just don't tell me that a bullet has no effect on an aircraft with thin-skin...or an engine...or a fuel tank...or a cockpit computer...or a hydraulic system...

It's a long ways to the nearest engine or fuel tank.

Wow...if that wasn't just a super weak counter....

You mean on something like a 737 or A320 or ERJ right?

The bullet that went through the cockpit cabin of the US Airways (A319) last year from the negligent discharge could have rendered the flight controls unusable if the weapon were pointed in a different direction.

Having said that, which aircraft couldn't have one or two systems compromised from a couple poorly aimed shots, or another negligent discharge...in flight.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[AggieDave 6]

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could have rendered the flight controls unusable if the weapon were pointed in a different direction.

It could have.

It could have bounced off a curb and killed a couple people in Dallas too! Basically it has to be the "golden bullet" to "kill" a non-redundant critical system.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JohnRich 4]

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Here's my take: It adds an element or variable that does not need to be there. 9/11 forever changed the dynamic. Passengers will automatically know the result of inaction, and they will act. The hijackers will never get near the door, and they will fail in their endeavors.

You have more faith in the general public than I do. 99% of them are cowards that will do nothing. We see this all the time in news shows, how people witness someone in need, and walk away without helping. When the terrorists take over another cabin, it won't be any different. They will sheepishly do nothing, in the vain hope that the terrorists will let them live, even knowing what has transpired before. If we're lucky, there will be a few brave men like yourself on board, willing to act. But don't count on any of them to back you up. They'll be happy to selfishly sit and do nothing to keep themselves safe, and hope that you succeed on your own.

I much prefer to have armed pilots as a last recourse.

The problems created by having guns on board, are far less than the horrid loss of a single plane to terrorists.

[JohnRich 4]

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Having said that, which aircraft couldn't have one or two systems compromised from a couple poorly aimed shots, or another negligent discharge...in flight.

The same could be said about a spilled cup of coffee. Shall we ban all liquids from the cockpit too?

[JohnRich 4]

Side note: What's that new avatar image? I recognize the Texas flag. And it appears to have an armadillo across the top. But the 'dillo has a big hole in him - what's that all about?

[jakee 1,259]

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Side note: What's that new avatar image? I recognize the Texas flag. And it appears to have an armadillo across the top. But the 'dillo has a big hole in him - what's that all about?

My extensive research reveals that the two favourite Texan pastimes are eating and shooting (not neccesarily in that order). So I'm guessing it's either a bullet hole or a bite mark

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Gawain 0]

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I much prefer to have armed pilots as a last recourse.

The problems created by having guns on board, are far less than the horrid loss of a single plane to terrorists.

Fine with me. I'm simply stating that I don't like it and why I don't like it. I'm not going to lobby against it because I am not "anti-gun", I'm simply acknowledging that this is one area where I feel a gun doesn't leverage the right advantages versus risks.

As to your loss of faith of some in the general public, remember Flight 93, and what the passengers chose to do, only after they realized what was going on. Do you really think that wouldn't cross people's minds at the "onset" of a hostile act?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Unstable 8]

We trust the pilots to fly the planes, and we trust them if there is an aircraft emergency. I would trust them to conceal carry, as a last resort.

=========Shaun ==========

[penniless 0]

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Pretty dangerous program anyway:

One pilot starts jackin around with his pistol and shoots a hole and it's a dangerous program? One in seven years. hmmmmm, one guy hooked in the ground and died last month. Guess we should ban those also. Pretty dangerous move.

What if the bullet had hit a critical system? Didn't think about that, did you? I never heard of a hook turn taking down an airliner.