This forum is TRULY an embarassment.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

I disagree. How is it I'm more qualified than a complete white person simply because of where my mother happens to come from? It's racism in it's purist form and I for one do not agree with any form of racism whether it benefits me or not.

Great.. good for you

If you do not like it seek to change it... for now.. it is the law of this land to redress former laws and practices that made it neccesary. If it had not been put in place the workplace would still look the way it did in the 1950's with all the attitudes that went along with it.

IT is what it is.

[downwardspiral 0]

I AM seeking to change it. Trading one form of racism for another is 1 step forward...10 steps back and if you can't see that then you are very much a part of the problem rather than the solution.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[livendive 8]

Quote

And yes Vinny I DO support affirmative action to redress the overt racism and sexism that STILL exists. Equating affirmative action to racism puts you in league with some interesting characters.

I know in YOUR mind and a few others around here you see it that way.. but so does tha Aryan Nations and the KKK et al)

While I'm not a member of the KKK or the Aryan Nations, it still puts him in league with me. I have a tough time imagining a valid argument that establishes hiring decisions based on race are not racist in nature. Whether you give someone a job or deprive them of a job, if you make the decision based on their race, it's a racist decision.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[airdvr 197]

Quote

If it had not been put in place the workplace would still look the way it did in the 1950's with all the attitudes that went along with it.

So you're saying the work of MLK et al. didn't amount to anything? Without laws to discriminate against more qualified individuals women and minorities, specifically blacks couldn't possibly measure up in the modern workplace?

Wow!

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 2,400]

>Whether you give someone a job or deprive them of a job, if you
>make the decision based on their race, it's a racist decision.

I agree.

The one exception to that is if a group has been specifically wronged (i.e. denied education, or required to go to a separate educational facility) that group may be entitled to preferential hiring practices as recompense. In the US in the past, blacks have been defined by the government as part of that group. It applies, however, to any group so discriminated against, not to any given color or race.

However, the number of people discriminated against in the workforce is dwindling. The last time state-imposed segregation was used to deny anyone education was 1970, and the last time state-imposed segregation was used to deny people housing was 1975. So the basis for preferential treatment in employment and/or housing is declining. One day soon there will be no one living who has been denied education or housing based on their race, and there will be no basis for such preferential treatment programs.

[livendive 8]

Quote

>Whether you give someone a job or deprive them of a job, if you
>make the decision based on their race, it's a racist decision.

I agree.

The one exception to that is if a group has been specifically wronged (i.e. denied education, or required to go to a separate educational facility) that group may be entitled to preferential hiring practices as recompense. In the US in the past, blacks have been defined by the government as part of that group. It applies, however, to any group so discriminated against, not to any given color or race.

What you've just described isn't any less racist, it's just been deemed "legal" or "justified" or "acceptable" or maybe "compensatory" racism.

Most people consider the killing of another human bad. Sometimes, survival depends on just such an action (i.e. self-defense). The fact that these situations involve "justified" killing doesn't mean someone wasn't killed.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Amazon 7]

Quote

What you've just described isn't any less racist, it's just been deemed "legal" or "justified" or "acceptable" or maybe "compensatory" racism.

Most people consider the killing of another human bad. Sometimes, survival depends on just such an action (i.e. self-defense). The fact that these situations involve "justified" killing doesn't mean someone wasn't killed.

There is a point though that WAY too many people seem to miss completely ( perhaps its just something they wish did not exist)

Those who are not accepted for entry to a school or a job because of a quota.. always seem to make out just fine.... just in a different place.

Those who are usually discriminated against do not have those options. Those doing the selection and hiring in most cases always seemed to be more comfortable tih other people who looked just like them.

NOW they do not have that luxury and HAVE to at least make excuses of why they did not make a selection based on the law. Eventually that will catch up with them and they will be replaced by someone more willing to be inclusive rather than EXCLUSIVE.

Bill is right... there is more opportunity today than when I was in school and getting out and trying to get a job for the first time.

There are STILL jobs in the military where those who do not have a cluttered crotch have ZERO chance of even being considered.

We aint there yet folks.

[billvon 2,400]

>What you've just described isn't any less racist . . .

So if a black man is denied employment because of his race, and the judge/jury in the resulting case finds the company liable, and awards $50,000 in compensatory damages - the judge and jury are racist?

[livendive 8]

Quote

>What you've just described isn't any less racist . . .

So if a black man is denied employment because of his race, and the judge/jury in the resulting case finds the company liable, and awards $50,000 in compensatory damages - the judge and jury are racist?

No. The judge/jury are giving him $50,000 because he's been "harmed", not because he's black. They're also taking the money from the company that actually deprived him of his civil rights, not just some random white-owned corporation, or white peer. By contrast, when an admissions/hiring decision is based on race, the school/company is still getting what they wanted (a qualified employee/student), but there's an innocent party being "harmed" as a result of being the wrong race.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Butters 0]

Blah, blah, blah. You believe the way to rid ourselves of racism and sexism is through ... racism and sexism.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[billvon 2,400]

> The judge/jury are giving him $50,000 because he's been "harmed", not
>because he's black.

Exactly! Anyone who has been harmed by state-sanctioned educational or housing segregation is likewise entitled to compensatory damages, no matter what their race.

If the US had required chinese to go to separate schools in the 1960's, then chinese who had been discriminated against in that way might be eligible for compensatory actions. That didn't happen. What DID happen is that blacks were required to go to separate schools. Thus affirmative action targets blacks and not chinese.

>By contrast, when an admissions/hiring decision is based on race, the
>school/company is still getting what they wanted (a qualified
>employee/student), but there's an innocent party being "harmed" as a
>result of being the wrong race.

In my example case, an innocent party can also be "harmed." The judge might require the company to hire him as part of his judgment. That removes the opportunity for a white person to be hired. That, however, does not make the judge or jury racist either.

[Amazon 7]

Yup.. it sucks dont it...

Quote

Blah, blah, blah. You believe the way to rid ourselves of racism and sexism is through ... racism and sexism.

Yup.. it sucks dont it...

WELCOME to my world.. not that many of you are capable of giving a shit because now you PERCIEVE to have had less opportunity

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Yup.. it sucks dont it...

Quote

Blah, blah, blah. You believe the way to rid ourselves of racism and sexism is through ... racism and sexism.

Yup.. it sucks dont it...

WELCOME to my world.. not that many of you are capable of giving a shit because now you PERCIEVE to have had less opportunity

Well, since you have admited you have race problems and you are sexists, I guess I have to agree with you. (from that perspective anyway)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Well, since you have admited you have race problems and you are sexists, I guess I have to agree with you. (from that perspective anyway)

What you do not FATHOM... is I have seen it and experienced it first hand.

Its still here.. but if you do not see it.. which I bet you do not.. other than some vague references of how horribly you are being discriminated against as a white male.. in a society DOMINATED by white males.. I seriously doubt you give a shit.. other than the fact that it MAY bite you one day If you lived anywhere but WhiteBread Iowa.



I would put this forth.

What percentage of the population is female... over 50%

Does ANYWHERE you ever worked have anywhere near 50% of workers and managerial staff that are female? Be truthfull!!! I certainly have not... Gee why is that???

The same can be said for ANY racial minority.


So much for all of that bullshit that gets spread around by the OH SO DISADVANTAGED and DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.. White males.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

Well, since you have admited you have race problems and you are sexists, I guess I have to agree with you. (from that perspective anyway)

What you do not FATHOM... is I have seen it and experienced it first hand.

Its still here.. but if you do not see it.. which I bet you do not.. other than some vague references of how horribly you are being discriminated against as a white male.. in a society DOMINATED by white males.. I seriously doubt you give a shit.. other than the fact that it MAY bite you one day If you lived anywhere but WhiteBread Iowa.



I would put this forth.

What percentage of the population is female... over 50%

Does ANYWHERE you ever worked have anywhere near 50% of workers and managerial staff that are female? Be truthfull!!! I certainly have not... Gee why is that???

The same can be said for ANY racial minority.


So much for all of that bullshit that gets spread around by the OH SO DISADVANTAGED and DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.. White males.

Ok, you have seen it. So, to create a fix, you want to add to it.

Makes perfect sense to me

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[livendive 8]

Quote

> The judge/jury are giving him $50,000 because he's been "harmed", not
>because he's black.

Exactly! Anyone who has been harmed by state-sanctioned educational or housing segregation is likewise entitled to compensatory damages, no matter what their race.

While that is true, it's a bit misleading. Nobody is asking applicants whether they have been harmed by state-sanctioned educational or housing segregation. A determination has been made that a class of people has been harmed and is deserving of compensation. The disciminating factor used to determine whether an individual belongs to that class is not whether they have been harmed, but rather what race they belong to, thereby making it "racial discrimination."

From dictionary.com

Quote

rac·ism (rā'sĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Quote

>By contrast, when an admissions/hiring decision is based on race, the
>school/company is still getting what they wanted (a qualified
>employee/student), but there's an innocent party being "harmed" as a
>result of being the wrong race.

In my example case, an innocent party can also be "harmed." The judge might require the company to hire him as part of his judgment. That removes the opportunity for a white person to be hired. That, however, does not make the judge or jury racist either.

In such an instance, the white person would not be missing a job opportunity because of the color of his skin, but rather because he was not the individual who had won a lawsuit mandating the hiring of the winning plaintiff.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Belgian_Draft 0]

I sense some serious penis envy going on.

HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

[livendive 8]

Quote

I would put this forth.

What percentage of the population is female... over 50%

Does ANYWHERE you ever worked have anywhere near 50% of workers and managerial staff that are female? Be truthfull!!! I certainly have not... Gee why is that???

The same can be said for ANY racial minority.

My current job requires a fairly specific educational background. In college, nowhere near half my classmates were female. Therefore, the pool of qualified individuals for my job is not split 50/50 and thus neither is the workforce. I've also previously been a commercial fishermen for a few years and a bouncer at a couple of different bars. Oddly enough, I didn't see a line of women being turned away from those jobs in favor of men either.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Bolas 5]

Quote

There are STILL jobs in the military where those who do not have a cluttered crotch have ZERO chance of even being considered.

We aint there yet folks.

If a woman can pass the PT standards for those jobs, I agree with you, she should be allowed to perform the job. I believe the standards should be gender neutral. If you meet them, great. If not, sorry.

What I have a huge problem with is when they change or lower the standards for all or just the women to creating "separate but equal" Usually to meet the quotas of someone who has no clue why the standards were set where they were to begin with.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Ok, you have seen it. So, to create a fix, you want to add to it.

Makes perfect sense to me

It does make perfect sence to you.. I am feeling all of that conservative love . Anyone who would DARE to upet YOUR apple cart you and your fellow travellers try and shut them up. Just the thought of anyone who wishes to make a better world for your children or grandchildren you shower all of your conservative love on...

Face the facts.. this is still a racist and sexist country. You are in the group that benefits the most from it... GEE no wonder you cant see past your own predjuidices. Maybe in the future.. there WILL be a society here that will allow ANYONE to succeed in it no matter WHO they are. We are not there yet by ANY measure.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

I sense some serious penis envy going on.

I sense some SERIOUS Personal Attack going on.

Its ok.. nothing will happen

And why the fuck do you seem to think I would want one of those... If I want one its VERY easy to get one to use for a few hours.

Most of us have been told this

=======================>

Is supposed to be this

=======================================================================================>

All of our lives.. no wonder most women are lousy at maths.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

If a woman can pass the PT standards for those jobs, I agree with you, she should be allowed to perform the job. I believe the standards should be gender neutral. If you meet them, great. If not, sorry.

What I have a huge problem with is when they change or lower the standards for all or just the women to creating "separate but equal" Usually to meet the quotas of someone who has no clue why the standards were set where they were to begin with.

I know plenty of men who could not pass a PT test for being a SERE instructor. ITs not my fault they are a bunch of pussies

But there are several jobs that a woman will not even be considered for.

I would DEMAND that there be no lessening of standards in ANY way. Set a reasonable standard necessary to do the job and to weed out the weak of body as well as the weak of mind no matter WHAT their gender or background is.

If the "men" there cant handle being out performed by a woman.. TOUGH fucking shit.. get rid of them too iif they are threatened that much.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Perpetuated by moderators as well.

Get used to it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Amazon 7]

Quote

My current job requires a fairly specific educational background. In college, nowhere near half my classmates were female. Therefore, the pool of qualified individuals for my job is not split 50/50 and thus neither is the workforce. I've also previously been a commercial fishermen for a few years and a bouncer at a couple of different bars. Oddly enough, I didn't see a line of women being turned away from those jobs in favor of men either.

I am not demanding that there HAS to be 50% in your field.. BUT there should be no impediments pout in place for one who DOES wish to be there.

Dave you know me... do you feel I could do the job on an offshore dragger or a crab boat if I wanted to?( well when I was younger at least)

I did work as a bodyguard/driver once upon a time.. that was kind of fun.. but there is no way I would wish to be a cop or a bouncer and have to deal with fucking drunks on a daily basis. Doing those jobs is NOT always about being the strongest or the baddest.. it helps to be smarter than those you are trying to get under control.

[billvon 2,400]

>Nobody is asking applicants whether they have been harmed by state-
>sanctioned educational or housing segregation. A determination has been
>made that a class of people has been harmed and is deserving of
>compensation.

Correct. That is because _every_single_ black person was harmed by the official policies of the US government. There were no exceptions in voting, employment, education or housing laws for black people who were smart, or who were not criminals, or who were criminals. If you were black, you could not go to white school. Period.

Whenever such a group is discriminated against so heavily, they are entitled to the same sort of punitive damages as an individual is who has been harmed the same way. This is not because of the color of their skin, but because they were part of a group that was discriminated against.

Had the US government picked and choosed who to deny education or housing to, then I would agree that each case should be decided on its own merits. That was not the case.

>In such an instance, the white person would not be missing a job
>opportunity because of the color of his skin, but rather because he was
>not the individual who had won a lawsuit mandating the hiring of the
>winning plaintiff.

Correct. In my case, the white person would not be missing an opportunity because of the color of his skin, but rather because he was not part of the group who was systematically discriminated against by the government.