Is There A Gunshow Loophole?

[rushmc 18]

I tried searching to see if this was posted before. Sorry if I failed to find it.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x187439

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 3]

You're asking if there is a loophole. The answer is absolutely yes.

The study is saying that it found no correlation between the gun shows and an increase in homicides and suicides within a 25 mile radius of the gun show during the 4 week periods immediately afterward at some specific locations in Texas and California.

I think your subject line is somewhat off the mark and would have been more powerful if you had used the title of the article rather than attempting to make one up yourself.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[1969912 0]

No. "Gunshow Loophole" is a term invented by dishonest anti-gunners intended to fool people and promote legislation that will eventually lead to a ban on all private sales, which would be a prelude to registration of all firearms.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

Quote

The answer is absolutely yes.

Nope. Sales at gunshows fall under the same laws/requirements as any other sales.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Amazon 7]

There are "gunshows" here about once a month and they are held under the auspices of the Washington Arms Collectors.

To buy or sell "guns" there you need to present ID and they do the same background check by computer that would happen at any local dealer. The people attending can forgo PAYING for the the background check and joining the WAC BUT they will only be allowed to buy accessories or possibly ammunition . Most all of the people with booths there are members will not sell a "gun" or in some cases any items to non-members. I dont see much of a "loophole".

[skybill 18]

Hi rush,
This idea of a "Gun show loophole" is put forth by anti-rights, Hoplophobic (*) people that you, I or anyone can go to a "gun show" and purchase firearms with no State/Federal background checks or requirements whereas purchases made at a dealer "outside" the show requires these State/Federal checks. "Got That??" It really doesn't take a lot of investigation to find out the fallacy here. The anti-rights people claim that anyone, especially criminals, can utilize this gunshow source to circumvent traceability of the firearms they can use in criminal activity!! Now if you think that you can go to a "Gun Show" and purchase firearms from a Gun Show Dealer differently than at a gun shop accross the street, I have a bridge in New York City that you need to buy!!! Just for you, in the dead of night, delivered to me, $2500.00 in unmarked twenty dollar bills, in a brown paper bag and the bridge is yours!!

(*) go to www.gunlaws.com for details.

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Hi rush,
This idea of a "Gun show loophole" is put forth by anti-rights, Hoplophobic (*) people that you, I or anyone can go to a "gun show" and purchase firearms with no State/Federal background checks or requirements whereas purchases made at a dealer "outside" the show requires these State/Federal checks. "Got That??" It really doesn't take a lot of investigation to find out the fallacy here. The anti-rights people claim that anyone, especially criminals, can utilize this gunshow source to circumvent traceability of the firearms they can use in criminal activity!! Now if you think that you can go to a "Gun Show" and purchase firearms from a Gun Show Dealer differently than at a gun shop accross the street, I have a bridge in New York City that you need to buy!!! Just for you, in the dead of night, delivered to me, $2500.00 in unmarked twenty dollar bills, in a brown paper bag and the bridge is yours!!

(*) go to www.gunlaws.com for details.

Ah, you do understand I agree with you! I post the link to take yet another chunk out of the anti 2nd Amendment crouds arguments.


Marc

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[BIGUN 1,053]

Quote

Nope. Sales at gunshows fall under the same laws/requirements as any other sales.

You and Quade are both right.

First, anyone registered as an FFL dealer selling a gun at a gun show must follow the same rules as the storefront dealer across the street. A valid FFL must be held by anyone selling, manufacturing, or importing guns, ammunition, and certain gun parts (Better known as "In the business of...") Firearm-related laws are listed in Title 18, Chapter 44, US Code and enforced by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. So, those who posses an FFL at a gun show, must still follow the rules on background checks, etc. And, I can assure that agents of ATF are at every show to ensure State and Federal regulations are being followed. In fact, you can probably Google the number of ATF seizures/arrests at gun shows for those who do not).

Now, let's look at "The Loophole:"

1. People who are not engaged in the business of selling firearms, but who sell firearms from time to time (such as a man who sells a hunting rifle to his brother-in-law), are not required to obtain the federal license required of gun dealers or to call the FBI before completing the sale.

2. A gun collector dies and his widow wants to sell the guns, she does not need a federal firearms license because she is just selling off inherited property and is not "engaged in the business." It is lawful for her to rent a table at a gun show and sell the entire collection.

3. Technically, a non-FFL holder "private individual" can go to a gun show, purchase a weapon from an FFL, do the paperwork, get the background check done, get handed the gun and receipt and IMMEDIATELY turn around and re-sell the gun to another private individual. One can literally walk out into the parking lot and sell the gun they just purchased. In other words;

Quote

NON-LICENSED RESIDENTS OF THIS STATE:
MAY acquire from and dispose of personal firearms to non-licensed residents of this state.
CANNOT acquire from or dispose of firearms to non-licensed resident of any other state.*

http://www.dallasarms.com/rules.htm

* So, the issue becomes, how many of the "private individuals" in all three examples of "The Loophole." are going to take the time to ask a third-party to see there driver's license (basically an "arm's length transaction") or for that matter; one who has the intent of making some money by using the loophole.

In my opinion, all guns should be registered to the owner. And, if the owner "private individual" wished to re-sell that weapon, should be required to go to www.ATF.gov, or through an FFL "in-the-business" to do the paperwork and background check (for a small fee) to maintain a chain of title on the weapon.

And, yes, mine are all registered. But, all that means is the background check was done and then the yellow sheet is left with FFL Dealer as to make, model, etc. I think the yellow sheets should be held in a computerized national ATF repository instead of just with the FFL Holder.

Disclaimer: Things may have changed over the past few years regarding "The Loophole," but I really don't stay up on it, but from the looks of the source cited which I just pulled tonight, it would appear the loophole still exists.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[1969912 0]

Quote

Quote

Nope. Sales at gunshows fall under the same laws/requirements as any other sales.

You and Quade are both right.

First, anyone registered as an FFL dealer selling a gun at a gun show must follow the same rules as the storefront dealer across the street. A valid FFL must be held by anyone selling, manufacturing, or importing guns, ammunition, and certain gun parts (Better known as "In the business of...") Firearm-related laws are listed in Title 18, Chapter 44, US Code and enforced by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. So, those who posses an FFL at a gun show, must still follow the rules on background checks, etc. And, I can assure that agents of ATF are at every show to ensure State and Federal regulations are being followed. In fact, you can probably Google the number of ATF seizures/arrests at gun shows for those who do not).

Now, let's look at "The Loophole:"

1. People who are not engaged in the business of selling firearms, but who sell firearms from time to time (such as a man who sells a hunting rifle to his brother-in-law), are not required to obtain the federal license required of gun dealers or to call the FBI before completing the sale.

2. A gun collector dies and his widow wants to sell the guns, she does not need a federal firearms license because she is just selling off inherited property and is not "engaged in the business." It is lawful for her to rent a table at a gun show and sell the entire collection.

3. Technically, a non-FFL holder "private individual" can go to a gun show, purchase a weapon from an FFL, do the paperwork, get the background check done, get handed the gun and receipt and IMMEDIATELY turn around and re-sell the gun to another private individual. One can literally walk out into the parking lot and sell the gun they just purchased. In other words;

Quote

NON-LICENSED RESIDENTS OF THIS STATE:
MAY acquire from and dispose of personal firearms to non-licensed residents of this state.
CANNOT acquire from or dispose of firearms to non-licensed resident of any other state.*

http://www.dallasarms.com/rules.htm

* So, the issue becomes, how many of the "private individuals" in all three examples of "The Loophole." are going to take the time to ask a third-party to see there driver's license (basically an "arm's length transaction") or for that matter; one who has the intent of making some money by using the loophole.

In my opinion, all guns should be registered to the owner. And, if the owner "private individual" wished to re-sell that weapon, should be required to go to www.ATF.gov, or through an FFL "in-the-business" to do the paperwork and background check (for a small fee) to maintain a chain of title on the weapon.

And, yes, mine are all registered. But, all that means is the background check was done and then the yellow sheet is left with FFL Dealer as to make, model, etc. I think the yellow sheets should be held in a computerized national ATF repository instead of just with the FFL Holder.

Disclaimer: Things may have changed over the past few years regarding "The Loophole," but I really don't stay up on it, but from the looks of the source cited which I just pulled tonight, it would appear the loophole still exists.

But what does any of the above have to do with gunshows? What if the widow sold them through the local newspaper classifieds? What about the "Classifed Ads Loophole"? There is NO "Gunshow Loophole", PERIOD.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[BIGUN 1,053]

It has to do with the concentration of "private individual" to "private individual" sales using the loophole at gun shows. There are currently over 4,000 gun shows in the US; each with hundreds of sellers and thousands of attendees. You're an engineer; do the math.

But, you do have a point.. Hence, the "my opinion on registering all gun sales" part, whether it be FFL's to private individuals or individual to individual.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[1969912 0]

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It has to do with the concentration of "private individual" to "private individual" sales using the loophole at gun shows. There are currently over 4,000 gun shows in the US; each with hundreds of sellers and thousands of attendees. You're an engineer; do the math.

But, you do have a point.. Hence, the "my opinion on registering all gun sales" part, whether it be FFL's to private individuals or individual to individual.

Why do you say "...using the loophole at gun shows." when there is no difference between private sales at a gunshow and private sales at a garage sale or through the newspaper?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[BIGUN 1,053]

Asked and answered.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[1969912 0]

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Asked and answered.

Not a "Gunshow Loophole". If you disagree, please explain in detail.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[kallend 1,623]

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It has to do with the concentration of "private individual" to "private individual" sales using the loophole at gun shows. There are currently over 4,000 gun shows in the US; each with hundreds of sellers and thousands of attendees. You're an engineer; do the math.

But, you do have a point.. Hence, the "my opinion on registering all gun sales" part, whether it be FFL's to private individuals or individual to individual.

Why do you say "...using the loophole at gun shows." when there is no difference between private sales at a gunshow and private sales at a garage sale or through the newspaper?

So there IS a loophole, and it applies beyond the bounds of gunshows.

In a 1997 ATF survey of CRIMINALS, 80 admitted buying weapons at gun shows. And that's just the ones that got convicted.

ATF estimates that between 25% and 50% of tables at gunshows are NOT FFL holders.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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So there IS a loophole, and it applies beyond the bounds of gunshows.

Does it apply beyond the bounds of the trunk of a gangbanger's car, too?

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In a 1997 ATF survey of CRIMINALS, 80 admitted buying weapons at gun shows. And that's just the ones that got convicted.

80 out of?

Quote

ATF estimates that between 25% and 50% of tables at gunshows are NOT FFL holders.

ATF estimates that between 99% and 100% of gangbangers are not FFL holders, too - your point being?

LEGAL person to person sales are NOT a 'loophole'.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 18]

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So there IS a loophole, and it applies beyond the bounds of gunshows.

Does it apply beyond the bounds of the trunk of a gangbanger's car, too?

Quote

In a 1997 ATF survey of CRIMINALS, 80 admitted buying weapons at gun shows. And that's just the ones that got convicted.

80 out of?

Quote

ATF estimates that between 25% and 50% of tables at gunshows are NOT FFL holders.

ATF estimates that between 99% and 100% of gangbangers are not FFL holders, too - your point being?

LEGAL person to person sales are NOT a 'loophole'.

I am still waiting to the law that the criminals will follow. You know, the law that will keep "ciminals" from breaking it and therefore will not aquireing guns.

????? I am getting confused...... criminal........ahhh, a law they will abide by ........ahhhh.

Am I missing something here?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Ron 7]

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In a 1997 ATF survey of CRIMINALS, 80 admitted buying weapons at gun shows. And that's just the ones that got convicted.

80 out of? You know that other number is quite important and leaving it out is just an attempt to mislead.

Quote

ATF estimates that between 25% and 50% of tables at gunshows are NOT FFL holders.

AND? A large majority of ANY item transactions are not through a dealer.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

In my opinion, all guns should be registered to the owner. And, if the owner "private individual" wished to re-sell that weapon, should be required to go to www.ATF.gov, or through an FFL "in-the-business" to do the paperwork and background check (for a small fee) to maintain a chain of title on the weapon.

And, yes, mine are all registered. But, all that means is the background check was done and then the yellow sheet is left with FFL Dealer as to make, model, etc. I think the yellow sheets should be held in a computerized national ATF repository instead of just with the FFL Holder.

What you described is NOT registration. It is a NICS instant background check.

BIG difference.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

In a 1997 ATF survey of CRIMINALS, 80 admitted buying weapons at gun shows. And that's just the ones that got convicted.

80 out of? You know that other number is quite important and leaving it out is just an attempt to mislead.

SInce one criminal with gun is one too many, I fail to see the point of your comment.

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ATF estimates that between 25% and 50% of tables at gunshows are NOT FFL holders.

AND? A large majority of ANY item transactions are not through a dealer.

So there's a huge loophole. Thanks for confirming that.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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SInce one criminal with gun is one too many, I fail to see the point of your comment.

Appeal to emotion. My point is simple really: You claimed that 80 criminals admitted to buying guns at a gun show.

If it is 80 out of 85...then you would be correct that it is a problem. But if it is 80 out of 8 million, then it is not such a big deal.

Trying to dodge that simple fact is nothing but being intellectually dishonest.

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So there's a huge loophole. Thanks for confirming that.

I guess then you agree that all skydiving gear should only be sold through riggers then? All cars should be sold through dealers then? I guess you are OK with the restrictions on rocket fuels then as well?

Again, more intellectual dishonesty from you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnRich 4]

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I think the yellow sheets should be held in a computerized national ATF repository instead of just with the FFL Holder.

And what is the goal of having a government database of every gun and gun owner in America?

[BIGUN 1,053]

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LEGAL person to person sales are NOT a 'loophole'.

Technically, that is correct.
From the "legal" perspective.
The issue is abuse of that legality.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

LEGAL person to person sales are NOT a 'loophole'.

Technically, that is correct.
From the "legal" perspective.
The issue is abuse of that legality.

According to the NIJ, 56% of arrested armed criminals said they got their guns from person-to-person sales. Looks like a big loophole to me.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BIGUN 1,053]

John,

The goal is this... Now its going to take some time; but there needs to be a transference of ownership in which there are less multiple offense criminals that have guns than those who are law -biding citizens of the community. The other goal would be to shift the balance of gun hatred to one of gun respect.

Over time (perhaps 10 years), weapons the police pull off the street that are not part of the national registry get tossed in the smelter. Eventually only law-abiding citizens will have the guns and the criminals will not. Crimes involving guns will be solved faster, because eventually, every gun will have a chain of title of ownership. Then, not every gun owner will will be perceived as the bad guy.

Law-abiding citizens with guns. Those who do not meet the threshold of "law-abiding" do not own guns. Now, before we get into the NRA rhetoric (of which I am surrounded both professionally, personally and familial)... I've been hearing the same empty rhetoric for the past 30 years (which they have to do to keep fear in gun owners or they'd be out of business just as Jesse Jackson cannot say; "Now, that we have a Black President my work on prejudice is done").

The government wants to take our guns!!!
They want us to have a national registry so when they want; they can come to our homes and take them if we don't surrender them.
The Dingos got my baby.

And in the same time frame; has gun ownership among criminals gone up or down? John, here's the deal... this is neither a left or right issue.. it's a "legal" and "a gun in the hands of criminal's" issue.

Little Oklahoma wisdom for ya..

If you always do; what you've always done.
You'll always get; what you've always had.

-Unknown

How do we make gun ownership not only a right, but a responsibility?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[kelpdiver 2]

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The goal is this... Now its going to take some time; but there needs to be a transference of ownership in which there are less multiple offense criminals that have guns than those who are law -biding citizens of the community.

law abiding gun owners greatly outnumber the number of gun possessing criminals. If not, our lives would be hell.

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Over time (perhaps 10 years), weapons the police pull off the street that are not part of the national registry get tossed in the smelter. Eventually only law-abiding citizens will have the guns and the criminals will not. Crimes involving guns will be solved faster, because eventually, every gun will have a chain of title of ownership.

Fails for numerous reasons. Consider how successful we are at preventing tons of pot and cocaine from entering the country. Guns can and do come the same way. Then consider that gun making is not rocket science. While it's difficult to craft something like the Sig or an H&K, zip guns are trivial, and something in the revolver class isn't that hard. And last, it would take far longer than 10 years for the current 300M guns to be found, id'd and/or destroyed. And adding to the current problem of gun theft in burglaries, you'd now have people using that database to locate places to rob.

All it would accomplish would be to make criminals out of millions of Americans who would refuse to comply.